Can Removing Highways Fix America's Cities? Starring Rochester, Buffalo, and Syracuse

[DCOrange]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html

 

I don't work in urban planning, but I find it to be super interesting and have particularly been interested in the talks around becoming less dependent on cars (particularly in urban areas). This article sort of falls into that category and heavily features Upstate NY.

[Just Jack]

With Syracuse, it's more because the bridges carrying the highway are nearing the end of their life span, and would have to be replaced.  The cheapest option is to remove them and instead make I-481 the new I-81 going around the city. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

They should have never built the 190 in Buffalo where it is.  Should have never been right on the water... Should have been further east.  They knew it then,  and they know it now the destruction it would bring... There were studies 60 years ago. 

 

Just nobody to advocate. During Boom Times people tend to sell each other out, till it comes crashing down...

 

Check this article out.  About Tulsa.  100 years since the massacre.  

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1268455

Edited May 29, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[Nextmanup]

I used to be good friends with a woman who worked in urban planning for the City of Buffalo.  We have sort of fallen out of contact over the years.

 

She is a very smart woman with a masters degree in UP from an Ivy League school.

 

She pointed out that the entire city of Buffalo had 3 planners on staff at that time (she was one of them) and then she pointed out that Portland, Oregon (a progressive place interested in improving itself constantly) had something like three hundred urban planners.

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

[Your Brown Eye]

It's going to take a hell of a lot more than filling in the Inner Loop to save Rochester.

[ExiledInIllinois]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I used to be good friends with a woman who worked in urban planning for the City of Buffalo.  We have sort of fallen out of contact over the years.

 

She is a very smart woman with a masters degree in UP from an Ivy League school.

 

She pointed out that the entire city of Buffalo had 3 planners on staff at that time (she was one of them) and then she pointed out that Portland, Oregon (a progressive place interested in improving itself constantly) had something like three hundred urban planners.

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

City Fathers were always elites in a labor town...

 

BFLo is the city that told Henry Ford to get *****-ed..  He went on to build his Highland Park & River Rouge plant in Detroit.   Buggy whips were up and coming in BFLo! 😕😞... Same old BFLo...

 

"Buffalo could have been Detroit," [Jim] Sandoro said of Buffalo's automotive past. "Henry Ford came here in the early 1900s for an auto show. Ford wanted to build a major assembly plant here, but the city fathers didn't want to give him any incentives, so he went elsewhere."

[Irv]

18 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

It's going to take a hell of a lot more than filling in the Inner Loop to save Rochester.

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Irv

[ExiledInIllinois]

32 minutes ago, Irv said:

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

Dam?  Anybody say dam! Dams is my biz!  😆...  Is this the dam?

 

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm7PR6_Court_Street_Dam_Genesee_River_Rochester_NY

 

We use sector gates here!  In fact the gates in Rochester, NY were built here!

 

I am not sure they can get rid of that dam so easily... Unless you like higher gas & electric prices? Hydro?  That's "green" energy, right?

 

"The Court Street Dam functions as a water-control structure for the lower Genesee River to regulate water levels in the nearby Erie Barge Canal during navigation season and to furnish water for the Rochester Gas and Electric hydroelectric plant at the west end of the dam."

 

Maybe they should just close down the Erie Canal... It's only for pleasure and recreational use... RG&E can come up with another plan?

 

Let me talk to legal counsel first, @BringBackFergy... Now about the Lower Falls.  How about bussing in some bears, Install a camera then we can watch them feed.  I GOT the perfect project manager for the job! Hey @Beerball , you up... Start working that resume...

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:49 AM, DCOrange said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/05/27/climate/us-cities-highway-removal.html

 

I don't work in urban planning, but I find it to be super interesting and have particularly been interested in the talks around becoming less dependent on cars (particularly in urban areas). This article sort of falls into that category and heavily features Upstate NY.

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

Maybe for the small and intermediate markets.  But the big markets, hell no!

 

Yet... Concrete and asphalt = $$$$ BIG $$$$$

 

Still have to supply areas by truck.   Also,  weren't the first interstates created for national defense or safety... So they claimed under Eisenhower.   They can land, take off planes on them if needed too???

[DCOrange]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:11 AM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is a timely article. I have been wondering if this movement with the combination of increased remote working/less commuting overall, will spawn more of this throughout the country. Will there be a need for super highways if we can reduce downtown commuting by 50+%?
 

You wonder if city neighborhoods and downtown business districts will become totally reimagined to become old school residential and community neighborhoods. 

I do feel like this past year of remote working for so many office workers has probably opened some eyes. For example, I work for a pretty huge consultancy company (not bragging or anything...I'm just a small cog in the machine lol). Their policy had always been that you could work from home one day a week, but after seeing that people's productivity remained the same over the past year or increased if anything, it sounds like they're going to give employees the option to work from home whenever they want (I assume there will be some exceptions for big quarterly meetings or something). They've also made it their policy to stop hiring people around major cities like mine to instead focus on spreading out to smaller/cheaper areas.

 

Most major cities will continue to be hubs for young people and rich people because they offer more things to do, but I do think there's potential for cities to start reimagining themselves a bit.

 

I know that for me personally, I really underestimated how nice it is to live in a walkable area; I pretty much only use my car if I'm going grocery shopping or driving home to visit family at this point. I would love to see cities make themselves more walkable/decrease car dependency.

[Irv]

On 5/30/2021 at 8:07 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Dam?  Anybody say dam! Dams is my biz!  😆...  Is this the dam?

 

https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm7PR6_Court_Street_Dam_Genesee_River_Rochester_NY

 

We use sector gates here!  In fact the gates in Rochester, NY were built here!

 

I am not sure they can get rid of that dam so easily... Unless you like higher gas & electric prices? Hydro?  That's "green" energy, right?

 

"The Court Street Dam functions as a water-control structure for the lower Genesee River to regulate water levels in the nearby Erie Barge Canal during navigation season and to furnish water for the Rochester Gas and Electric hydroelectric plant at the west end of the dam."

 

Maybe they should just close down the Erie Canal... It's only for pleasure and recreational use... RG&E can come up with another plan?

 

Let me talk to legal counsel first, @BringBackFergy... Now about the Lower Falls.  How about bussing in some bears, Install a camera then we can watch them feed.  I GOT the perfect project manager for the job! Hey @Beerball , you up... Start working that resume...

 

 

Sorry you skipped fact checking when it was taught it in scool.  The Court Street Dam is a completely different dam.  And yes, it regulates the height of the canal.   I'm talking about the dam for RG&E Station 2.  Totally unecessary and only generates 8.5MW. 

 

Insert mic drop sound here.  

[Jauronimo]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:25 AM, Irv said:

At first I thought filling in the Inner Loop was idiotic. Now I don’t think so.  On another note, I think the biggest travesty is the dam, train track, and what’s left of the Inner Loop that runs directly over the Upper Falls.  Who agreed to that in the old days?  Also the Lower Falls is completely underutilized.   If I was Mayor that would be my first priority after the murders, drugs, corruption, and violence.  
 

 

The inner loop was barely used by the time discussions of filling it in happened.  It was convenient for me living downtown but I hardly ever saw another car on the Loop.

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Irv said:

 

Sorry you skipped fact checking when it was taught it in scool.  The Court Street Dam is a completely different dam.  And yes, it regulates the height of the canal.   I'm talking about the dam for RG&E Station 2.  Totally unecessary and only generates 8.5MW. 

 

Insert mic drop sound here.  

Thanks.  That's why I asked.  Thanks for pointing out that it's a different one.

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

3 hours ago, DCOrange said:

I do feel like this past year of remote working for so many office workers has probably opened some eyes. For example, I work for a pretty huge consultancy company (not bragging or anything...I'm just a small cog in the machine lol). Their policy had always been that you could work from home one day a week, but after seeing that people's productivity remained the same over the past year or increased if anything, it sounds like they're going to give employees the option to work from home whenever they want (I assume there will be some exceptions for big quarterly meetings or something). They've also made it their policy to stop hiring people around major cities like mine to instead focus on spreading out to smaller/cheaper areas.

 

Most major cities will continue to be hubs for young people and rich people because they offer more things to do, but I do think there's potential for cities to start reimagining themselves a bit.

 

I know that for me personally, I really underestimated how nice it is to live in a walkable area; I pretty much only use my car if I'm going grocery shopping or driving home to visit family at this point. I would love to see cities make themselves more walkable/decrease car dependency.

interesting. I do find that employers now have a much huger market of employees to choose from due to remote working. I also wonder if wages may be impacted. For instance, why should your company pay the same salary for someone in NYC as someone working in Detroit? In non-remote times, there would be obvious differences in market pay. 
 

but getting back to the main topic, in my mind, I can see the death of your downtown business districts, and maybe your average-sized cities have scaled back and much more mixed use downtowns now. Zoning could be changed significantly too. No more sky scrapers— much more mixed use, walkable areas. 

[Bill from NYC]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:14 PM, Nextmanup said:

 

 

She eventually moved to Baltimore, frustrated with how things never change in WNY, and is in the same line of work there, as far as I know.

 

 

How are things working out for her in Baltimore? 😮

[LeviF]

4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

How are things working out for her in Baltimore? 😮

 

People get shot in really efficient lanes of travel.

[Orlando Buffalo]

The issue I have with the article is that all of the cities being studied have lost at least 35% of their population from the peak. If they are discussing shrinking cities they likely have a point but not growing cities.

[Just Jack]

6 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 For instance, why should your company pay the same salary for someone in NYC as someone working in Detroit? 

 

I'm wondering about people that moved out of the cities to lower cost of living areas, yet still have the same salary.  Will companies decide to cut their pay since they don't need as much to live on?  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

15 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

I'm wondering about people that moved out of the cities to lower cost of living areas, yet still have the same salary.  Will companies decide to cut their pay since they don't need as much to live on?  

Agree. As an employer, why wouldn’t you do that? That is the trade off for living where you want. Will be interested to see how the job market bears this out.