Dawson Knox to attend TE University

[WideNine]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:23 AM, Boxcar said:

Why don't we give a player in a position that is notoriously slow to develop more than two years before we call him a bust?

 

And yeah, it did help him because he was a better TE in 2020 than he was in 2019.

 

Ball security and blocking... some is learning better technique and some is hitting the books and understanding his assignments and protections better when he is called upon to block.

 

You are right about the needed patience...

 

Some guys come out of schools that are really good about developing TE's, some come out of schools where TE is a bit of an afterthought. We see the Kittles that come out of a very good Iowa program or prospects out of programs like Stanford, MIami, Notre Dame that are better at producing more NFL-ready TE's and expect a kid out of Ol' Miss to be less raw.

 

It is hard to wait for a TE to develop when it is a position that has been so notably under-utilized in Bills offenses for so long.  And last year we just seemed to telegraph our for-sure run plays when we trotted Smith out - hope Knox improves his game and I am still hopeful the Sweeny kid develops too.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by WideNine

[BigAl2526]

He is doing what he can to improve.  I have to give him that.  I hope to see positive results.

[Golden]

14 hours ago, Doc said:

IIRC he went last year.  It didn't help.  It's make or break year for him.

See:  Logan Thomas 

[BigDingus]

18 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Nashville? I'm more disappointed he's not from Knoxville now

[Tenhigh]

12 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

LJ was more Bryant and Stratton. 🙄

Barbazon?

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

13 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Barbazon?

Now you've got me Googling 'bad trade schools Buffalo N.Y.' 😁

[JGMcD2]

I LOVE the guys throwing Knox’s numbers out (only played 12 games BTW) there as a way to say he’s bad. 
 

It’s funny that people are upset that the 4th or 5th option in our offense put up 4th or 5th option numbers… there are only so many targets to go around folks. 
 

Now if you’re asking for him to be more involved in the offense… that’s fine… it just comes at the expense of Diggs, Beasley, Davis and Sanders. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by JGMcD2

[Doc]

7 hours ago, Golden said:

See:  Logan Thomas 

He’s on his fourth team and it took him until his seventh year since entering the league, fifth season playing, to have a breakout season.  The Bills/no team will wait that long.  

[TheFunPolice]

It's pretty cool that current players are willing to help guys from other teams out like this

 

I get retired guys doing it, but you're helping your opponents this way as well. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

He’s on his fourth team and it took him until his seventh year since entering the league, fifth season playing, to have a breakout season.  The Bills/no team will wait that long.  

 

 

He was only converted from QB to TE with the Bills.    But he had been signed to the PS by Whaley just weeks before Rex got canned so he wasn't a McBeane guy.   Had they signed him they might have had more patience........obviously the Bills TE room has been one of the league's worst since McD arrived.    But with the clusterf*ck that the 2018 offense was it's not surprising that evaluation mistakes were made.      

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

It's pretty cool that current players are willing to help guys from other teams out like this

 

I get retired guys doing it, but you're helping your opponents this way as well. 

 

 

It's good business sense.

 

If every team had ONE stud TE then it would be a huge disadvantage not to have one.

 

When things are needed they become more valuable $$$.

 

The scarcity of good TE's actually works against them at contract time because teams are accustomed to operating successfully without them.

[Nester]

Ok, but is Kevin Benjamin going too??

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

I LOVE the guys throwing Knox’s numbers out (only played 12 games BTW) there as a way to say he’s bad. 

 

? Knox has taken offensive snaps in 27 games? 

 

2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

It’s funny that people are upset that the 4th or 5th option in our offense put up 4th or 5th option numbers… there are only so many targets to go around folks. 
Now if you’re asking for him to be more involved in the offense… that’s fine… it just comes at the expense of Diggs, Beasley, Davis and Sanders. 

 

I don't follow your logic here.  Let's just look at Dawson's catch %.  It's 55.3% in those 27 games, and went down slightly last year from 56% to 54.5%. 

 

Now I grant you some of those targets are throw-aways at his feet or over his head, but that's a MISERABLE catch % for a TE, who are usually north of 70%.  If he catches 33 (75%) of his 44 targets last year instead of 24 at his average 12 YPR, that's an additional 108 yds which would give him 33 ypg.  That's not Kelce, Kittle, Waller, or Goeddert territory, but it would put him in the top-20 contribution range - Jared Cook, Austin Hooper, those guys - ahead of Ertz last year whom many year have it "on" for.

 

The point is, he could contribute more with the opportunities he's had in our offense, without any change to the targets for our other WR.  And that's not even addressing the plays where he failed to release or to be physical and get open, which maybe turned into throw-aways or scramble drills.

 

The other aspect is blocking.  As a TE, he's expected to block effectively.  There are a number of run plays which got blown up because Knox either totally whiffed, or failed to correctly identify who he should block given defensive shifts.  He was pretty easy to fool. 

 

To his credit, I thought he did much better in pass protection last year and I was impressed by some plays where he showed good awareness to not risk a blindside block penalty but held his arms up and just timed it perfectly to get in the defender's way - but it's safe to say he's not feared as a pass blocker; put him 1:1 with a top defender like Judon or TJ Watt and they lick their chops.

 

So for me, it's not the 4th or 5th option numbers that are the problem....it's the question of what did Knox do with the pass game opportunities he got last year (not enough), and did he contribute adequately in the other areas where a TE is expected to perform? (again, not enough)

 

 

[JGMcD2]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

? Knox has taken offensive snaps in 27 games? 

 

 

I don't follow your logic here.  Let's just look at Dawson's catch %.  It's 55.3% in those 27 games, and went down slightly last year from 56% to 54.5%. 

 

Now I grant you some of those targets are throw-aways at his feet or over his head, but that's a MISERABLE catch % for a TE, who are usually north of 70%.  If he catches 33 (75%) of his 44 targets last year instead of 24 at his average 12 YPR, that's an additional 108 yds which would give him 33 ypg.  That's not Kelce, Kittle, Waller, or Goeddert territory, but it would put him in the top-20 contribution range - Jared Cook, Austin Hooper, those guys - ahead of Ertz last year whom many year have it "on" for.

 

The point is, he could contribute more with the opportunities he's had in our offense, without any change to the targets for our other WR.  And that's not even addressing the plays where he failed to release or to be physical and get open, which maybe turned into throw-aways or scramble drills.

 

The other aspect is blocking.  As a TE, he's expected to block effectively.  There are a number of run plays which got blown up because Knox either totally whiffed, or failed to correctly identify who he should block given defensive shifts.  He was pretty easy to fool. 

 

To his credit, I thought he did much better in pass protection last year and I was impressed by some plays where he showed good awareness to not risk a blindside block penalty but held his arms up and just timed it perfectly to get in the defender's way - but it's safe to say he's not feared as a pass blocker; put him 1:1 with a top defender like Judon or TJ Watt and they lick their chops.

 

So for me, it's not the 4th or 5th option numbers that are the problem....it's the question of what did Knox do with the pass game opportunities he got last year (not enough), and did he contribute adequately in the other areas where a TE is expected to perform? (again, not enough)

 

 

I was referring to last year - not his entire career. Didn't specify so that's my bad. 

 

I thought he showed some growth last year after coming off the COVID list... prior to that I felt like he struggled. I'm just using the eye test and going off of memory. 

I would have to go back and watch his tape... unfortunately I don't have time to do that because I'm doing something similar for work. 

 

I guess I am in a different camp than everyone else with Knox. I don't have high expectations for him right now - I think he has a high ceiling but a TE who is very clearly still working out the kinks at a notoriously slow position to develop is not a guy I'm throwing a tantrum over because he's not our #1 or #2 target in this offense.  Maybe I'm more patient because in baseball we're taking 16 year old kids and spending 4-6 years refining their skillset (not including the 4-5 years after that where they continue to improve significantly once reaching the highest level) and I'm used to it taking quite a bit of time for everything to come together. 

 

He's a highly athletic developmental piece that I am treating accordingly. Sometimes I don't think expectations match reality... when you have a guy who is raw he's going to be raw regardless of what round he was drafted in. It's going to require a solid development plan along with the necessary reps and experience for the pieces to come together. It's honestly something this board and the Bills fanbase should be familiar with because of Josh. Good organizations are capable of developing people and in the case of sports, players. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I was referring to last year - not his entire career. Didn't specify so that's my bad. 

 

I thought he showed some growth last year after coming off the COVID list... prior to that I felt like he struggled. I'm just using the eye test and going off of memory. 

I would have to go back and watch his tape... unfortunately I don't have time to do that because I'm doing something similar for work. 

 

I guess I am in a different camp than everyone else with Knox. I don't have high expectations for him right now - I think he has a high ceiling but a TE who is very clearly still working out the kinks at a notoriously slow position to develop is not a guy I'm throwing a tantrum over because he's not our #1 or #2 target in this offense.  Maybe I'm more patient because in baseball we're taking 16 year old kids and spending 4-6 years refining their skillset (not including the 4-5 years after that where they continue to improve significantly once reaching the highest level) and I'm used to it taking quite a bit of time for everything to come together. 

 

He's a highly athletic developmental piece that I am treating accordingly. Sometimes I don't think expectations match reality... when you have a guy who is raw he's going to be raw regardless of what round he was drafted in. It's going to require a solid development plan along with the necessary reps and experience for the pieces to come together. It's honestly something this board and the Bills fanbase should be familiar with because of Josh. Good organizations are capable of developing people and in the case of sports, players. 

 

 

 

I don't think it's "everyone else".   I understand the "needs time to develop" part.  But the NFL limits patience and development time right now with free agency and the 4 year rookie deals, as well as by not having "minor leagues" where players can grow.

 

The other side is that the Bills clearly need to take a step, and one of the places they could take a step is at TE.  We need someone who can play better at that position, this coming season.  Whether that person is Knox, Hollister, Sweeney, or someone we grab, dunno. 

 

I'm not "throwing a tantrum" and I don't know anyone who wants him to be our #1 or #2 target, but the fact is we need more production in places on the offense and TE is one of those places.  I'm not just talking pass catching, either, but the ability to get open and be a threat so as to draw coverage (no one is scared of Knox so they feel free to double down on Diggs and Beasley), and also pass and run blocking.

[BuffaLoko]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:03 AM, Doc said:

IIRC he went last year.  It didn't help.  It's make or break year for him.

I think it did help, Joe Marino´s podcast touched on him being better (not there yet, tough); with 20% DROPS (10 out of 50 pases, or so) going down to: less than 10% in 2020 (something like 4 drops out of 60 passes, or so) and TDs going from 4 to 7, year to year... so... not a strong TE yet, but improvement was there... IMHO

[Doc]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He was only converted from QB to TE with the Bills.    But he had been signed to the PS by Whaley just weeks before Rex got canned so he wasn't a McBeane guy.   Had they signed him they might have had more patience........obviously the Bills TE room has been one of the league's worst since McD arrived.    But with the clusterf*ck that the 2018 offense was it's not surprising that evaluation mistakes were made.      

 

He played in 12 games and started 3 in 2018, when there was little on offense to take targets away from him.  Then the following year he went to Detroit and similarly did little with Stafford.  In Washington, he got targets and finally produced.  But on a per target basis, Knox would have had more yards and TDs.  

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

I was referring to last year - not his entire career. Didn't specify so that's my bad. 

 

I thought he showed some growth last year after coming off the COVID list... prior to that I felt like he struggled. I'm just using the eye test and going off of memory. 

I would have to go back and watch his tape... unfortunately I don't have time to do that because I'm doing something similar for work. 

 

 

I am (genuinely) curious. What growth did you see last year? I posted actual numbers earlier which show that his catch%, total yards, total TDs did not change meaningfully from his rookie to last season. He has not been the safe outlet which young QBs like Allen need. TE has been a problem position for the Bills for almost 2 decades now. We dont know what a decent TE can do to an offense, let alone a good one. To your high ceiling point, his lack of growth has me questioning that point and his effectiveness has not come across yet. If he magically (or through focused effort) pulls a 3rd-year-Allen on us, I will gladly come back to this post and eat crow. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Fan in Chicago

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I am (genuinely) curious. What growth did you see last year? I posted actual numbers earlier which show that his catch%, total yards, total TDs did not change meaningfully from his rookie to last season. He has not been the safe outlet which young QBs like Allen need. TE has been a problem position for the Bills for almost 2 decades now. We dont know what a decent TE can do to an offense, let alone a good one. To your high ceiling point, his lack of growth has me questioning that point and his effectiveness has not come across yet. If he magically (or through focused effort) does a 3rd year Allen on us, I will gladly come back to this post and eat crow. 

 

We know what a great TE can do to our defense, though

[JGMcD2]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think it's "everyone else".   I understand the "needs time to develop" part.  But the NFL limits patience and development time right now with free agency and the 4 year rookie deals, as well as by not having "minor leagues" where players can grow.

 

The other side is that the Bills clearly need to take a step, and one of the places they could take a step is at TE.  We need someone who can play better at that position, this coming season.  Whether that person is Knox, Hollister, Sweeney, or someone we grab, dunno. 

 

I'm not "throwing a tantrum" and I don't know anyone who wants him to be our #1 or #2 target, but the fact is we need more production in places on the offense and TE is one of those places.  I'm not just talking pass catching, either, but the ability to get open and be a threat so as to draw coverage (no one is scared of Knox so they feel free to double down on Diggs and Beasley), and also pass and run blocking.

Yes, you're right. The rules do inhibit the ability to wait... but the better teams have a process in which they follow. Just because the rules put a little more pressure on teams doesn't mean you have to panic when every player doesn't follow the expedited timeline that the rules force upon you. 

 

The fans seem to be panicking whereas the front office seems to be perfectly fine with Dawson Knox as our main TE option and they've supplemented him with some talent to compete with as they do at every position. 

 

I wasn't referring to you... I speak in blanket statements.