A Lot of Bills stars Were at OTA's But 1 Star Was Not .

[RichRiderBills]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Thanks, that's actually freakin' fascinating.  Thank you for linking that.

Imma pull out a table.

 

 

The key point (to me) is that OLmen (who are nice and big and fat - I think in general bigger and fatter than DE overall) had a lower risk, while DLmen had a higher risk, and especially due to cardiomyopathy.  Dunno about you, but if "big fat" OLmen have lower risk while "big fat" DLmen have higher risk, I think it might be safe to say the risk factor isn't being a "big fat" guy per se, but something else.

Its possible. There could be a ton of factors.  Theres several other studies, some more recent that say similar things. One even mentioned DTs have a higher "early" risk. Another mentions the pool are high risk to other conditions, such as sleep apnea and hypertension.

 

My own feelings are that big strong 300 pound men, fat or otherwise generally don't live long lives for an assortment of reasons. 

 

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

This is a report from 31 years ago and based on retired players (3,439 total) from 1959 to 1988.  

This isn't discussing current players who remain very active.  

 

Obviously older and retired players who keep on the same weight will absolutely be at higher risk.

 

Your right, not sure it makes it irrelevant. Also if you read my post and go down the list in the searches there are several other more recent studies that support this as well.

Edited June 1, 2021 by RichRiderBills

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, RichRiderBills said:

Your right, not sure it makes it irrelevant. Also if you read my post and go down the list in the searches there are several other more recent studies that support this as well.

The data you posted is relevant in other discussions but just not the argument that we were having with Badol.  We went a lot of pages so I don’t expect you to read the whole thing.

53 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He has been a big part of the 2nd, 10th, 6th, 21st, 7th, 2nd, and 3rd best defenses throughout his career respectively. Pretty big coincidence for an average at best player.

The fact is that McDermott keeps putting him out there and we haven’t tried to replace him after a few years...indicates he’s doing something right.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

He has been a big part of the 2nd, 10th, 6th, 21st, 7th, 2nd, and 3rd best defenses throughout his career respectively. Pretty big coincidence for an average at best player.

Good post.

While it is certainly possible for an "average-at-best" player to -- by sheer luck and coincidence -- stumble onto some top 10 defenses over the course of his career...at some point -- like when said player has been on six such teams in seven seasons -- it would seem reasonable to wonder if perhaps said player is CONTRIBUTING to this consistent success rather than merely remaining a starter on said good teams by sheer luck and coincidence.

Put another way: for an "average-at-best" player, Star's presence as a starting member of a top ten defense in six of his seven seasons is surely cause to at least consider re-examining the "average-at-best" label. Either that, or it's just luck and coincidence. I know which possibility I find more likely, though I'm sure ScottLaw or BADOL will be along shortly to tell me how wrong and dumb I am and what a waste of oxygen Star is -- again.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Logic

[TBBills]

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

***** now he is too small!!! Someone tell him to eat more!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The data you [@RichRiderBills] posted is relevant in other discussions but just not the argument that we were having with Badol.  We went a lot of pages so I don’t expect you to read the whole thing.

 

Actually I think that data is relevant and fascinating.  The disagreement (or at least my understanding thereof) is in whether one can apply population data about "obesity = higher cardiovascular health risk" to NFL linemen.  Having a study that was performed at any point find a significant difference in CV risk between OLmen and DLmen - where OLmen have a slightly lower risk relative to the general population but DLmen have a significantly higher risk - is worth taking a 2nd and 3rd look at.  OLmen tend on average to weigh at least as much or more than DLmen.  Even if you restrict it to DT and C/G, they weigh similar or the OLmen weigh a little more.

 

The CHF data is especially interesting.  Something else is going on there.

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The fact is that McDermott keeps putting him out there and we haven’t tried to replace him after a few years...indicates he’s doing something right.

 

Ha!  Well according to some here, it's apparently evidence that McDermott doesn't know WTF he's doing.

3 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

Its possible. There could be a ton of factors.  Theres several other studies, some more recent that say similar things. One even mentioned DTs have a higher "early" risk. Another mentions the pool are high risk to other conditions, such as sleep apnea and hypertension.

 

Love to see those too.  If you've got links or at least ref's please share.

[Royale with Cheese]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually I think that data is relevant and fascinating.  The disagreement (or at least my understanding thereof) is in whether one can apply population data about "obesity = higher cardiovascular health risk" to NFL linemen.  Having a study that was performed at any point find a significant difference in CV risk between OLmen and DLmen - where OLmen have a slightly lower risk relative to the general population but DLmen have a significantly higher risk - is worth taking a 2nd and 3rd look at.  OLmen tend on average to weigh at least as much or more than DLmen.  Even if you restrict it to DT and C/G, they weigh similar or the OLmen weigh a little more.

I believe the study found that Blacks/African Americans are at higher risk.  I believe that race dominates the defensive line while its probably more even on the offensive line.

 

But still, the only data we have is on retired players in this study.  One of the articles I posted discussed on the newer generation of 300# OL/DL workout more for lean muscle as opposed to just bulk....it gives them more agility and better endurance.

 

My college weight training coach played center at Wake Forest.  He said they were encouraged to eat pizza a lot to put on weight.  It’s different today....well with most.  You still have your Mike Williams and Marcel Dareus’s who aren’t committed.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes, Lotulelei is a 1tech and the rest of our DTs have been in the 3techs primarily. He lines up tilted a bunch to occupy the C/G double. He can anchor whereas Jordan Phillips when he was here or Harrison Phillips currently get moved pretty easily. Lotulelei isn't asked to get upfield much because that's not really his role- they like him to take the double without losing ground and keep LBs clean. When he gets a 1v1 he can and does win.

 

He doesn't look like your average fireplug which is why I think people misunderstand his role a lot but he has great upper and lower body strength and his length allows him to get inside blocks. He's a good player in an underappreciated role.

 

 

So what is Star's responsibility in the "less than 50%" of snaps where the offense doesn't assign two blockers to him?  (mind you, he only played 44% of the defensive snaps to start with which was less than "part timer" Lorenzo Alexander)

 

This is where the rubber meets the road with the defense of Star as "misunderstood".

 

When the 1 tech doesn't draw a double team it is his job is to get off his block and make a play.

 

Which he doesn't do.

 

As I said........Marcel Dareus earned 1st team all pro and put up 10 sacks as a 1 tech.    The position is not to be confused with NT.   If what Star provided was so important they would have tried to replace him with a reasonable facsimile thereof.........not Justin Zimmer.

 

I guess your argument is that he is just so unique they couldn't hope to find someone to do what he does.........which would explain why he had to take a pay cut and his contract was set up to make it easy to move on from him after the 2020 season(we know how that worked out).

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The fact is that McDermott keeps putting him out there and we haven’t tried to replace him after a few years...indicates he’s doing something right  and Beane made Star take a pay cut and re-structured his contract to make it easy to move on from him after 2020.   

 

FIFY

 

[BADOLBILZ]

53 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I believe the study found that Blacks/African Americans are at higher risk.  I believe that race dominates the defensive line while its probably more even on the offensive line.

 

 

I had faith you'd find the obviously slippery slope in your illogical arguments.

 

All the hand-wringing about me simply applying the common medical assertion that obesity puts one at a higher risk for illnesses/disorders was absurd.

 

You immediately jumped to the assumption that all 300# athletes were too fit to be compared to the general public..........but of course ignored the fact that there are 10-15x the % of 300# people on on NFL team versus the general population...........or that the risk factors are higher for african americans and  69% of the NFL are african americans versus just 13%-14% in the general population.   Sickle cell can cause heart failure/death......and HAS on the football field....... and that is exclusively an african american affliction.   The numbers also apply for things like diabetes and kidney failure.   

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So what is Star's responsibility in the "less than 50%" of snaps where the offense doesn't assign two blockers to him?  (mind you, he only played 44% of the defensive snaps to start with which was less than "part timer" Lorenzo Alexander)

 

This is where the rubber meets the road with the defense of Star as "misunderstood".

 

When the 1 tech doesn't draw a double team it is his job is to get off his block and make a play.

 

Which he doesn't do.

 

As I said........Marcel Dareus earned 1st team all pro and put up 10 sacks as a 1 tech.    The position is not to be confused with NT.   If what Star provided was so important they would have tried to replace him with a reasonable facsimile thereof.........not Justin Zimmer.

 

I guess your argument is that he is just so unique they couldn't hope to find someone to do what he does.........which would explain why he had to take a pay cut and his contract was set up to make it easy to move on from him after the 2020 season(we know how that worked out).

 

That's ok. A lot of fans misunderstand a lot of positions in McDermott's defense. Some people look at Edmunds' lack of TFL and think he should be playing DE. Just like how some people would call Alexander a part timer without understanding the toll playing everything from 0tech to WLB along the front 7 takes on your body.

 

If your take is that restructuring aging vet deals is somehow more indicative of the quality of their play as opposed to that of the front office, can't help you.

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I believe the study found that Blacks/African Americans are at higher risk.  I believe that race dominates the defensive line while its probably more even on the offensive line.

 

This could be a sneaky important (and likely controversial) line of inquiry regarding these counter-intuitive (with respect to simple weight-based) positional correlations to heart disease...

 

Probably would be easy-ish to compare demographic data of o-linemen versus d-linemen in the NFL, thus helping us to contextualize the reported disparity of heart disease death rates between those two position groups comprised primarily of very large athletes.

 

(I'd think the inclusion of DEs would bring down the average weight of d-linemen to something WELL below o-linemen, even when considering that 3-4 DEs are typically much stouter than their 4-3 counterparts; again, I'm sure this data is out there and I'm just ignorant beyond my own assumptions. O-linemen are basically ALWAYS 300+ lbs; d-linemen are often MUCH lighter than that.)

[Richard Noggin]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's ok. A lot of fans misunderstand a lot of positions in McDermott's defense. Some people look at Edmunds' lack of TFL and think he should be playing DE. Just like how some people would call Alexander a part timer without understanding the toll playing everything from 0tech to WLB along the front 7 takes on your body.

 

Wow, do I miss 'Zo on this defense. Criminally underrated, even by many Bills fans. That dude made plays at every damned position in the front-7. Kind of ILB Belichick has coveted over the years. 

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He didn't speak specifically on those that I saw. But he did speak specifically on Diggs and on Star and the difference in what he was willing to say was striking. 

 

 

Agreed. He didn't speak specifically.

 

And the difference appeared to be irritation. Which leaves a ton of room for interpretation.

 

 

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think you're reading too much into his answer. It was clear that McDermott was disappointed with every player that didn't show up at OTAs. He didn't single out Star, someone just asked him a specific question about Star and that's how he responded. My sense was if that he had been asked that question about Hughes or Addison or anyone else he would have given the same answer.

 

Yeah, this is how it seemed to me too.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah,  the idea that Star was constantly drawing double teams and tying up blockers was incorrect.   @thebandit27 would often point this out when he was still posting here as well.   It's a fact,  it's not something that should require backup but there are a lot of folks on this board that felt like Star was very good at forcing doubles......when in fact a good guard had little issue taking him out of the play with no assistance necessary.    $10M per is a lot to pay for a player like that.

 

At the time of that Browns game they were in the midst of a rather bad stretch of playing run defense.   I remember seeing Wyatt Teller single block pancake Star on one play inside the redzone in particular.    The notion that he was a force at the LOS is a misty water-colored memory.   But we do tend to see this with injured players........Harrison Phillips was deified when the Bills run defense struggled in 2019 after his injury.   Then Star got the nod in 2020 and now Phillips is living in the shade.   

 

 

Very true. Very fair. He certainly had a few plays where he was beaten, no question. So does every single player in the NFL, of course, but certainly Star was no exception.

 

And it's also fair to say that Star wasn't always drawing double teams. Just often and a real majority of the time when the play call was a run anywhere through the middle. 

 

He absolutely was tying up blockers on run plays. Not so much on pass plays, admittedly. That's why he's a two-down guy.

 

 

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nope, just more of the false narrative claiming that I am saying obese people can't be athletic or powerful.   This guy is NOT an NFL lineman:

 

 

Here's the latest from AHA about obesity:

 

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000973

 

You still don't get it.

 

This guy is maybe obese. And maybe athletic. But comparing him to an NFL starter is like comparing a tabby cat to a lion.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Putin]

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He has been a big part of the 2nd, 10th, 6th, 21st, 7th, 2nd, and 3rd best defenses throughout his career respectively. Pretty big coincidence for an average at best player.

A BIG part ?? When I think of that Carolina defense there’s at least 8 players that I would consider being a BIGGER  part ,  he wasn’t even the best DT on that defense !!! 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Putin

[GoBills808]

17 minutes ago, Putin said:

A BIG part ?? When I think of that Carolina defense there’s at least 8 players that I would consider being a BIGGER part of that great defense, he wasn’t even the best DT on that defense 

😂😂Big play Bene? Tre Boston? Kona Ealy? Watch a lot of Carolina circa 2015? Because I did and if you think Short was the better of the two you probably think Jordan Phillips was our best DT in 2019.

[Thurman#1]

48 minutes ago, Putin said:

A BIG part ?? When I think of that Carolina defense there’s at least 8 players that I would consider being a BIGGER part of that great defense, he wasn’t even the best DT on that defense 

 

 

I can see how that's an argument that can be made.

 

Worth noting that Star's last year in Carolina, the D allowed a YPA of 4.0, and the next year, with Star gone (and Kawann Short at LDT both years), that jumped a bit, to 4.7. There were only two changes on their front seven between those two years, Star, and also Johnson leaving and Peppers getting a lot playing time and starts. I'm sure Star's absence was not the only reason for that, but it's likely a bigger part of that reason than many want to admit.

 

I'm not even a big Lotulelei fan especially. I thought they would draft a future replacement this year, and thought it would be a good idea, one I could get behind. They didn't. That may say something. We'll see.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thurman#1

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I can see how that's an argument that can be made.

 

Worth noting that Star's last year in Carolina, the D allowed a YPA of 4.0, and the next year, with Star gone, that jumped a bit, to 4.7. And no, I'm sure Star's absence was not the only reason for that, but it's likely a bigger part of that reason than many want to admit.

I can’t because it’s a bad argument. In order of importance it was probably Kuechly Norman Davis Lotulelei. 

 

I watched that team a ton. My brother is a big Panthers fan. Lotulelei’s been an integral part of top defenses his whole career.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I can’t because it’s a bad argument. In order of importance it was probably Kuechly Norman Davis Lotulelei. 

 

I watched that team a ton. My brother is a big Panthers fan. Lotulelei’s been an integral part of top defenses his whole career.

 

 

Thanks. I'm not a major Panthers follower, never have been. Good to know that a guy who watched a lot thinks Lotulelei mattered there the way he does in Buffalo.

 

I went and edited the post because I wanted to check what other changes were made on their front seven between those two years. Not much. 

 

And the point is well-taken about the fact that he's been on really good defenses consistently.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Thanks. I'm not a major Panthers follower, never have been. Good to know that a guy who watched a lot thinks Lotulelei mattered there the way he does in Buffalo.

 

I went and edited the post because I wanted to check what other changes were made on their front seven between those two years. Not much. 

 

And the point is well-taken about the fact that he's been on really good defenses consistently.

Who knows if he’ll still be any good after a year off...I have no idea. But the idea that he’s bad and always has been is laughably wrong.