Fairburn would swap Allen for Mahomes. Would you?

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Well one way to look at this is that it is completely irrelevant what either QB did beyond just last season. Just looking at last season can you tell who the better QB was? Statistically they were near identical in both passer rating and QBR. And they both heavily carried their teams. Neither was a low attempt QB or completely carried or bailed out by a great defense. Taking everything into account; schedule, offensive weapons, team defense etc. I think I would say Allen by a smidge. 

 

The questions really becomes how much weight should we give the past. Allen couldn't complete a pass his rookie year. But how is that even relevant to today? Half those receivers are not even in the league anymore and hell Mahomes didn't even play his rookie year.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.  
 

You’re right, Allen being terrible in his rookie year does nothing to show his greatness.  But Mahomes winning MVP leading his team to 3 straight championship games and coming back in the SB vs a great defense to win a SB and SB MVP is absolutely evidence of his greatness.  It’s proven. There’s a reason he is recognized as the best QB in the league according to most. You don’t have to recognize him as such of you don’t want to.  I feel that it’s preposterous to crown Josh allen, the QB that Mahomes defeated soundly two times last season, as better than Mahomes.  The season in which you say Allen overtook him and became the best......allen was terrible in 2 games vs the guy that he is supposedly better than.  Your equation doesn’t add up..... but you can feel that way if you want.  Your claims won’t fall on deaf ears here.  The only people that will agree with you atm will be found on this board.  I’m just not one of them......yet

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

That is true. But I don't think it is hard to see why Allen has such a high trajectory or ceiling. He's starting to make a lot of the throws and plays Mahomes makes and at Mahomes level efficiency. And on top of that he's a couple inches taller, 20-30 pounds heavier and can run like Cam Newton. It's certainly not just Bills fans that see his high ceiling either. Greg Cosell, Chris Simms, Jordan Palmer are a few others who see it as well. 

If you want to make the argument that if Mahomes and Allen somehow became equal passers, Allen would be the better QB, I would definitely NOT disagree. 
 

But they have to get there. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Utah John said:

Each player's team built their offense around their skills and both played great last year.

 

Here's why I would take Mahomes over dearly beloved Josh Allen:  performance in the playoffs.  Allen played poorly in the loss to the Texans.  He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts and Ravens, and he looked bad in the loss to the Chiefs.

 

The only time I've seen Mahomes not play really well in a playoff game is last year's Super Bowl, when the Bucs pass rush against a team with a banged up O line dominated, and created a very un-Mahomes type game.

 

When Allen shows he can consistently play great in playoff games, I'll change my vote.

 

26/35 for 324 yards, 2TDs and 0INTS

 

chipped in another 50 yards rushing and another TD

 

 

[Jpsredemption]

Mahomes. Guy has historic, best of all time type numbers through 4 years and he sat one of them. If we are being honest it’s not even close.

[eball]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Well, I did say he “is” the better qb. I didn’t say he will always be the better qb.  We can only judge them by what they’ve done so far and Mahomes is, imo, clearly the better QB based on his accomplishments to date.  There really isn’t any debate is there?  We can’t judge players on “well, if so and so played with this player and that player than he’d be the best player”.  Well, if Matt Ryan was on the Patriots and Tom Brady was on the Jets, Ryan would be the GOAT and brady would have zero titles.  Brady is the GOAT and Ryan has zero titles.  We talk about what players have actually accomplished.  
 

Once Josh accomplishes more and more, and I believe he will, then the dynamics of this conversation may change.....but as of right now, there is no argument for Josh being better than Mahomes 

 

Actually, these sorts of discussions in sports ARE all about “what ifs” and the like.  Yes, we can only see what has occurred, but we can openly wonder what would happen in different circumstances.  My opinion is that if you asked all NFL GMs the question of whether they wanted Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen right now, going forward, it would not be 32-0.

[dgrochester55]

As great as Allen was last year, Mahomes is the better QB until The Bills can win a Super Bowl and start consistently beating the Chiefs.   With that being said, I would not make the trade.   Both players are perfect fits for their team and culture and I am not sure that either one would improve in their new scenario.

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Actually, these sorts of discussions in sports ARE all about “what ifs” and the like.  Yes, we can only see what has occurred, but we can openly wonder what would happen in different circumstances.  My opinion is that if you asked all NFL GMs the question of whether they wanted Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen right now, going forward, it would not be 32-0.

 

I agree it wouldn't be 32-0. I think Allen would get around a third of the votes.

[eball]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree it wouldn't be 32-0. I think Allen would get around a third of the votes.

 

That’s my thinking as well.  2020 was the first year Allen had a legitimate #1 WR.  Mahomes has had Hill and Kelce — two of the best receivers in the game — his entire career.  That takes nothing away from what Mahomes has accomplished but it provides some perspective.

 

2021 is going to be a very interesting season for a number of reasons, but I believe the budding “Allen vs. Mahomes” debate will get a lot more heated.

 

The question of “who’s the better QB” aside, I have no doubt Josh landed in the perfect place for him and for the team, and it appears Mahomes did as well.  Flip-flop them and I really don’t know that anyone can predict what would have happened.

 

[machine gun kelly]

15 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Oh wait, I don’t have one.

 

Um yeah Allen. 

[Captain Hindsight]

I wouldnt make that trade just so we dont have to deal with mahommes dumbass brother and mother

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.  
 

You’re right, Allen being terrible in his rookie year does nothing to show his greatness.  But Mahomes winning MVP leading his team to 3 straight championship games and coming back in the SB vs a great defense to win a SB and SB MVP is absolutely evidence of his greatness.  It’s proven. There’s a reason he is recognized as the best QB in the league according to most. You don’t have to recognize him as such of you don’t want to.  I feel that it’s preposterous to crown Josh allen, the QB that Mahomes defeated soundly two times last season, as better than Mahomes.  The season in which you say Allen overtook him and became the best......allen was terrible in 2 games vs the guy that he is supposedly better than.  Your equation doesn’t add up..... but you can feel that way if you want.  Your claims won’t fall on deaf ears here.  The only people that will agree with you atm will be found on this board.  I’m just not one of them......yet

 

I don't disagree when looking at the entire careers. Mahomes is absolutely the safer bet when looking at all three years of each player starting. But as I said, it's another way to look at the debate. Looking at ONLY 2020 for both players does seem to make more sense in a debate of the here and now and into the future. Particularly with Allen where 2018 just feels completely irrelevant and there's not an apples to apples comparison because Mahomes didn't play his rookie year and started out the gate with two future HOF level talents.

 

Head to head? Is that relevant in what is the ultimate team sport? For years Peyton was the best QB in the game despite Brady and the Patriots getting the better of him year after year. But you couldn't find anyone outside of New England that would say Brady was better than Peyton. Not until at least 2007 and really, probably even later like 2011. 

 

The losses to KC and the offenses below average production in both games is in large part due to scheme. Bills offense is entirely too WR centric to match up well against the Chiefs defense. If that doesn't change there's a very good chance the Bills and Allen will face the same fate next year against the Chiefs when we play them. That won't mean at all that Allen can't end up having again the better MVP season like he had last year. 

[BarleyNY]

7 hours ago, Utah John said:

Each player's team built their offense around their skills and both played great last year.

 

Here's why I would take Mahomes over dearly beloved Josh Allen:  performance in the playoffs.  Allen played poorly in the loss to the Texans.  He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts and Ravens, and he looked bad in the loss to the Chiefs.

 

The only time I've seen Mahomes not play really well in a playoff game is last year's Super Bowl, when the Bucs pass rush against a team with a banged up O line dominated, and created a very un-Mahomes type game.

 

When Allen shows he can consistently play great in playoff games, I'll change my vote.

Which direction will Allen go in?  Toward Mahomes' level?  Or to Carson Wentz's level?  A couple of years ago people were saying about Wentz what they said about Allen last year.  Then the bottom fell out.  I do NOT think that will happen with Allen, who has worked too hard to fall apart now.  But the point is, predictions are hard, particularly about the future.  (Thanks Yogi.)

This is exactly where I am.  While I’m certainly not saying that Allen can’t take that next step - after all, he’s taken so many already - it’s pure homerism to chose a QB who has already done so over one who hasn’t.

[HOUSE]

Mahomes has weak toes

 

pass

 

 

[Charles Romes]

Though chiefs fans would not like to acknowledge you have to factor in Mahomes’ concussion history. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

22 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Mahomes has weak toes

 

pass

 

 

Another potential candidate for my hockey boot / football shoe.  That adds Mahomes to my list with Kroft and 'Fragile Sammy Watkins'. 👍

[GunnerBill]

58 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I don't disagree when looking at the entire careers. Mahomes is absolutely the safer bet when looking at all three years of each player starting. But as I said, it's another way to look at the debate. Looking at ONLY 2020 for both players does seem to make more sense in a debate of the here and now and into the future. Particularly with Allen where 2018 just feels completely irrelevant and there's not an apples to apples comparison because Mahomes didn't play his rookie year and started out the gate with two future HOF level talents.

 

Head to head? Is that relevant in what is the ultimate team sport? For years Peyton was the best QB in the game despite Brady and the Patriots getting the better of him year after year. But you couldn't find anyone outside of New England that would say Brady was better than Peyton. Not until at least 2007 and really, probably even later like 2011. 

 

The losses to KC and the offenses below average production in both games is in large part due to scheme. Bills offense is entirely too WR centric to match up well against the Chiefs defense. If that doesn't change there's a very good chance the Bills and Allen will face the same fate next year against the Chiefs when we play them. That won't mean at all that Allen can't end up having again the better MVP season like he had last year. 

 

Couldn't find anyone outside New England to say Brady was better than Manning? I mean I am in old England but I'd say it....

 

I also don't agree that looking only at 2020 makes more sense for assessing the future. It does to an extent for Josh because he has only played at that elite level for 1 year but Mahomes has played at an elite level for 3 years. It makes no sense to discount the other two.

[Greg S]

Both are great players but I voted no. Allen is our QB and I believe we will win a Super Bowl with him. I think when its all said and done he will replace Kelly as the greatest QB in franchise history.

[dpberr]

I said no for two reasons:

 

1.  I think the injuries will start to accrue for PM this year.  I don't think that foot is ever going to be 100%.  He had a pretty severe case of turf toe that required a plate, and that's going to nag each and every season.  That's not to say Josh Allen will zip through his career Tom Brady style, but I think PM will be more limited not only as a season goes on, but with each new year too.   

 

2.  Andy Reid's time on the sidelines is closer to the end than it is the beginning, and you really don't know if his system makes PM great or PM is just great. The Andy Reid system can make quarterbacks look incredible (see Nick Foles).  I think the McDermott-Allen relationship has more years in it.  

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, Utah John said:

He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts

 

When did this become the narrative? Allen was the best player on the field in that game. We won the game primarily because of his play. He made ONE mistake.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

23 minutes ago, dpberr said:

I said no for two reasons:

 

1.  I think the injuries will start to accrue for PM this year.  I don't think that foot is ever going to be 100%.  He had a pretty severe case of turf toe that required a plate, and that's going to nag each and every season.  That's not to say Josh Allen will zip through his career Tom Brady style, but I think PM will be more limited not only as a season goes on, but with each new year too.   

 

2.  Andy Reid's time on the sidelines is closer to the end than it is the beginning, and you really don't know if his system makes PM great or PM is just great. The Andy Reid system can make quarterbacks look incredible (see Nick Foles).  I think the McDermott-Allen relationship has more years in it.  

very good point.