Fairburn would swap Allen for Mahomes. Would you?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

44 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He was good enough in 2020 to win MVP in 2020....but if he was the QB behind KCs OL, playing Tampa, he wouldn’t have stood a chance to win SB and Sb mvp.  Not to mention that I don’t think he was good enough in 2019 to beat that niner D

 

Most likely true. He would have needed Mahomes 2019 line against the Bucs just as Mahomes needed that line.  Even then though didn't appear the Chiefs had an answer for Gronk and Fournette. 

 

As for the 49ers. That was Mahomes 3rd year. 3rd year Allen was definitely good enough to hang with that 2019 49ers team. 

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Transplant was quite literally the Pope of the Church of Tyrod. You have a better chance convincing him the sky is green when he locks in on a QB.

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

Every time I make a statement, I don’t feel the need to spend hours of my time (which is LITERALLY what you asked me to do) in order prove it to another poster.  Sorry, not sorry. If you don’t believe me, I’ll sleep just fine. 

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There were plays with open receivers. But Josh absolutely was running for his life. I still maintain we lost that game in the trenches.

 

Well... this I agree with. This is also very, very different from what @NewEra stated.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

Even the church had folks other than you to man the walls.

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Not to mention as great as both can be it's unlikely either ever eclipse Brady. 

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time.   For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more.   Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good.  In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives.  

 

So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats.  I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11).   Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them.  I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch.   

 

As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents.   Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category.   Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion.  

 

Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

 

I don't know. Brady has the total package going right now. Rings, conference championships, stats, longevity, efficiency etc. He'll be hard to beat. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

 

I agree. Which is why earlier in the thread i compared Mahomes vs. Allen to Brady vs. Peyton as evidence that the head to head match up does not mean Mahomes is better than Allen. Early in both their careers Peyton was the better QB despite the losses to New England. But that was early in their careers. Brady has since easily eclipsed Peyton not just on longevity but by also proving that his highs can be just as high as Peyton's. Brady has three season of +110 passer ratings to only 2 for Peyton.

 

10 years ago Brady was a 33 year old QB in his prime. He hasn't gotten better but he also hasn't gotten much worse. And he was already playing at Peyton's level at age 33 so it's  not like he needed to get better.

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time. 

His longevity also stands out. He even outlasted Drew Brees by at least 3 years and counting. What's the saying? Availability is the best ability? No QB has been more available than Brady as his career continues to tick on and he plays at a high level.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Most likely true. He would have needed Mahomes 2019 line against the Bucs just as Mahomes needed that line.  Even then though didn't appear the Chiefs had an answer for Gronk and Fournette. 

 

As for the 49ers. That was Mahomes 3rd year. 3rd year Allen was definitely good enough to hang with that 2019 49ers team. 

Yeah....except, 2019 Josh was in his second year.  Make believe is fun, especially when we transport teams into the future.  It would’ve been 💯 impossible for 2020 Josh to play the 2019 niners team in the super bowl.  This is too much for me. I’m out

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ya know... this might be an argument if there weren't so many other "more" reasonable posters making the same arguments I am.

 

But they are, so your ad hominem attack fails and makes it pretty clear you're desperate at this point... that's just too bad...

 

That's fine. I don’t believe you.

Cool.  Watch the game in all 22 and educate yourself on the matter like I did

[FireChans]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't agree with this.  It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking.  

 

Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT.   He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT.  His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's.   

 

In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years.   He's just had sustained excellence.   But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was.   No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years.  

 

The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time.   For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more.   Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good.  In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives.  

 

So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats.  I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11).   Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them.  I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch.   

 

As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents.   Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category.   Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion.  

 

Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it. 

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 
 

@transplantbillsfan is this your boy!!

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I agree. Which is why earlier in the thread i compared Mahomes vs. Allen to Brady vs. Peyton as evidence that the head to head match up does not mean Mahomes is better than Allen. Early in both their careers Peyton was the better QB despite the losses to New England. But that was early in their careers. Brady has since easily eclipsed Peyton not just on longevity but by also proving that his highs can be just as high as Peyton's. Brady has three season of +110 passer ratings to only 2 for Peyton.

 

10 years ago Brady was a 33 year old QB in his prime. He hasn't gotten better but he also hasn't gotten much worse. And he was already playing at Peyton's level at age 33 so it's  not like he needed to get better.

His longevity also stands out. He even outlasted Drew Brees by at least 3 years and counting. What's the saying? Availability is the best ability? No QB has been more available than Brady as his career continues to tick on and he plays at a high level.

Thanks.   This is good.  

 

And I agree, Brady's longevity does mean something, but it's not how I think of the GOAT.   Brady's longevity makes him the most remarkable QB of all time, because he has played at the highest level for an unusually long time, but I think the GOAT should be determined simply in terms of who was the best at the position for a sustained period.   And that's why I think Mahomes or Allen could become the GOAT.   I think there's a really good chance that one or both of them will put up stats that will pass Brady, and one or even both could have substantial post-season success, like, say, four rings.   If that happens, then in my mind the guy who does that is the GOAT over Brady, because there is absolutely no question that both Allen and Mahomes already are better than Brady in terms of pure play-making.   Brady never could scramble like either one of the, never could have the running success that either has had.  Brady doesn't have an arm that can compare with either of them.   

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 
 

@transplantbillsfan is this your boy!!

Ehhhh.  I disagree with his take,  but his opinion on the matter certainly does not put every single football take into question.

I’ve read and agreed with several of his takes over the years.  

He has a different thought process and it’s one that I agree with to a certain extent.  When people ask me who the greatest RB is, I say Adrian Peterson in his prime is the best RB I’ve ever seen, after having watched football extensively since 1980.  I don’t expect people to agree with me that he’s the best.....but to my eye, at his best, he was the best imo.  
 

Watching what Rodgers, Mahomes and Allen can do hrowing the ball, it’s clear to me that they have much more athletic ability and arm talent than Brady has ever had, giving them a much higher ceiling. Manning was a better pure passer.  Marino was a better pure passer. But Brady is the unquestioned GOAT because of the way he prepares, leads coupled with his will to win.  Accomplishments matter when discussing the greatest and no one has accomplished what Brady has.  Yet

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 Yet

Exactly.  

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  

But he’s clearly the GOAT as of now.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Not willing to call Brady the GOAT at this point puts your every single football take into question. 

 

Not really. It is difficult to compare QBs across eras as the game has evolved so much. Even when comparing those within the same era, they can be evaluated differently depending upon the criteria one chooses in defining what constitutes a great QB. To say there is no valid argument for any QB, other than Brady, as the greatest of all time is just silly.

Edited May 30, 2021 by billsfan1959

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

But he’s clearly the GOAT as of now.

Of course.  No question.  

 

In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field.   Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling.   After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility.  

 

The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver.   They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work.  

 

Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated.   Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now.   

 

Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player.   Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.  

[Nextmanup]

Yes, in a heartbeat.

So would any intelligent, objective football analyst.

 

Gotta love Bills fans---75% say keep Josh!

 

 

On 5/23/2021 at 3:57 PM, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

two different breeds of QB.

 

JA fits buffalo perfectly.

 

I'll pass on mahomes.

 

 

 

never really understood what they get out of these hypotheticals other then, to just pass time?

The only "breed" that matters is skill and quality.

 

The rest is just BS.

 

Mahomes wins the contest.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course.  No question.  

 

In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field.   Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling.   After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility.  

 

The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver.   They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work.  

 

Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated.   Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now.   

 

Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player.   Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.  

 

Agree with Peyton and I think Joe Montana is in that conversation as well. As far as QBs from past eras playing in less complicated schemes - it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been just as good or even better playing in the modern era. We will never know, that is part of what makes those arguments so much fun.

 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Not really. It is difficult to compare QBs across eras as the game has evolved so much. Even when comparing those within the same era, they be evaluated differently depending upon the criteria one chooses in defining what constitutes a great QB. To say there is no valid argument for any QB, other than Brady, as the greatest of all time is just silly.

Actually, I don't agree.   I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged.   It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit.   On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more.   I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham.   There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras.   For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally.   Could Otto Graham do what Brady does?   Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know.  Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion.   Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.   

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Agree with Peyton and I think Joe Montana is in that conversation as well. As far as QBs from past eras playing in less complicated schemes - it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been just as good or even better playing in the modern era. We will never know, that is part of what makes those arguments so much fun.

 

Montana!    There's a great suggestion.   Even he played in the relative dark ages, but his era was the beginning of modern football.   The west coast offense was the beginning.   So, yeah, if we're drinking beers and arguing the GOAT, I'd listen to arguments about Montana.  

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, I don't agree.   I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged.   It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit.   On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more.   I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham.   There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras.   For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally.   Could Otto Graham do what Brady does?   Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know.  Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion.   Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion.   

 

Just my opinion.

 

Certainly they could based soley on the life experiences of all of them in playing football in the eras in which they played. However, IMO, there is no way anyone could say with any degree of certainty that a QB of a past era, if raised in the modern era, couldn't be as good as as a Brady or a Manning.