Explosion In Jerusalem

[oldmanfan]

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

[meazza]

8 hours ago, Justice said:

I don’t condone that kind of behavior but trust me when I tell you just the mere presence of the soldiers should’ve stopped the rock throwing. 

No the presence of soldiers angers the people praying at the mosque.  They are right to be angry but there also shouldn’t be people throwing rocks at the kotel.

 

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, meazza said:

No the presence of soldiers angers the people praying at the mosque.  They are right to be angry but there also shouldn’t be people throwing rocks at the kotel.

 

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

That is a noble thought and of course all would like to see Jews and Arabs live in peace.  But they haven't for thousands of years because they don't want to.  Some do, but the ones who don't rule the roost.    It just stuns me that so many think a U.S. President can somehow change that.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

That is a noble thought and of course all would like to see Jews and Arabs live in peace.  But they haven't for thousands of years because they don't want to.  Some do, but the ones who don't rule the roost.    It just stuns me that so many think a U.S. President can somehow change that.  

There's plenty the President can do. But none of them of either political party will ever do it. 

 

He could freeze arms sales and assistance to Israel and Saudi Arabia to convince them to use their influence and control to bring all the parties to the table to reach some kind of amiable "peace" plan for co-existence. He could exert his influence on the Israeli PM and government to stop ultra-right wing Orthodox Jewish "settlers" from confiscating and encroaching on traditional Arab neighborhoods.  

He could pull our troops out of Syria and Iraq.  He could reach a genuine agreement with Iran (an adversarial relationship since the 1950's US engineered coup) and respect their sovereignty in exchange for their adherence to standards of behavior consistent with the international community.  He could recommend Turkey be expelled from NATO and reprimand Erdogan for supporting ISIS terrorist and other extremists and he could support democratic forces within the country that face persecution and imprisonment.  He could engage the Lebanese government to begin the process of extracted Hezbollah from the country.  He could eliminate US assistance to the Saudi's in their fight against rebel forces in Yemen.    

 

I could go on for a lot longer.  But the fundamental problem is US Middle East strategy is to maintain chaos.  And then be mostly silent about it when hostilities break out like they are right now.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

There's plenty the President can do. But none of them of either political party will ever do it. 

 

He could freeze arms sales and assistance to Israel and Saudi Arabia to convince them to use their influence and control to bring all the parties to the table to reach some kind of amiable "peace" plan for co-existence. He could exert his influence on the Israeli PM and government to stop ultra-right wing Orthodox Jewish "settlers" from confiscating and encroaching on traditional Arab neighborhoods.  

He could pull our troops out of Syria and Iraq.  He could reach a genuine agreement with Iran (an adversarial relationship since the 1950's US engineered coup) and respect their sovereignty in exchange for their adherence to standards of behavior consistent with the international community.  He could recommend Turkey be expelled from NATO and reprimand Erdogan for supporting ISIS terrorist and other extremists and he could support democratic forces within the country that face persecution and imprisonment.  He could engage the Lebanese government to begin the process of extracted Hezbollah from the country.  He could eliminate US assistance to the Saudi's in their fight against rebel forces in Yemen.    

 

I could go on for a lot longer.  But the fundamental problem is US Middle East strategy is to maintain chaos.  And then be mostly silent about it when hostilities break out like they are right now.

Some of these points are interesting and worth attempting, but I suspect would ultimately be fruitless.  To me when you have two groups that think the other has no right to exist, it doesn't matter what diplomatic methods are used.  

[Doc]

1 hour ago, meazza said:

Because you push the voices of those who want peace and coexistence.  
 

How else would 2 million Israeli arabs live in Israel?

 

That only works for a short period of time.

[SoCal Deek]

Or, you become energy independent and then let these people do whatever they’re going to do! Way, way too much blood and treasure has been spent on this ancient feud. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Or, you become energy independent and then let these people do whatever they’re going to do! Way, way too much blood and treasure has been spent on this ancient feud. 

It is an intractable problem and has been so for thousands of years.

[Justice]

2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

So who historically been the oppressor here?

Both claim that title. There is always someone with money and making money fueling the fire, telling people what to think, not allowing people to stop hating.

Who in Ireland was the oppressor, protestants or catholics. Money fueled the flames.

It is always money and religion behind it. Few people who build and keep the fire burning.  

 

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Again, Jews and Arabs have hated each others for thousands of years.  Some Arabs in groups like Hamas want Jews exterminated, some Jews want Arabs exterminated.  How exactly is the U.S. government or any other country supposed to broker peace when you have that as the underlying issue?

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

The U.S. will always back Israel because it is the only democractic country in the region and because of the Holocaust.  Whether that is right or wrong is immaterial to the fact that JEws and Arabs hate each other and have done so for thousands of years.

[SCBills]

24 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

I know this isn’t the point your making, but we don’t just give out foreign aid to be nice to our allies.   It all comes with strings attached, and Israel, with their intelligence agency, provides us with a lot in return.  
 

We sprinkle $$$, protection and infrastructure around, while China does the same.   Not to be benevolent, but to buy cooperation. 
 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SCBills

[meazza]

38 minutes ago, Justice said:

Speaking of money. $3.8b per year to a nuclear power from the US to Israel seems a bit insane, doesn’t it? 

See my post about $3.8b per year in foreign aide to Israel. You think we want to broker peace? Lol 

Everyone always talks about the foreign aid from the US to Israel but the us also sends money to 1.5 b to Egypt, 600m to Pakistan, 1b to Iraq, 1b to Yemen. 
 

You should also look at how much the rest of the world sends to the West Bank and Gaza.  
 

It’s an irrelevant talking point.  Israel has already taken steps to live without American aid if it was to ever happen.

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, meazza said:

Everyone always talks about the foreign aid from the US to Israel but the us also sends money to 1.5 b to Egypt, 600m to Pakistan, 1b to Iraq, 1b to Yemen. 
 

You should also look at how much the rest of the world sends to the West Bank and Gaza.  
 

It’s an irrelevant talking point.  Israel has already taken steps to live without American aid if it was to ever happen.

So absent US arms sales and aid to Israel, they would be sourcing their weapons purchases from Russia, or China, or Switzerland, or home industries?  All kinds of hardware but most critical IDF fighter jets and support?  

Edited May 18, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[meazza]

11 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So absent US arms sales and aid to Israel, they would be sourcing their weapons purchases from Russia, or China, or Switzerland, or home industries?  All kinds of hardware but most critical IDF fighter jets and support?  

I don’t know about their home grown abilities to build weapons but if hamas that has access to only smuggled goods is able to build rockets, pretty sure that Israel can manage.

 

They also appear to have a strong relationship with India and other countries now.

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, meazza said:

I don’t know about their home grown abilities to build weapons but if hamas that has access to only smuggled goods is able to build rockets, pretty sure that Israel can manage.

 

They also appear to have a strong relationship with India and other countries now.

If Israel didn’t have access to the weaponry they do, it would be a bloodbath.   
 

The Iron Dome would allow more rockets through, leading to more civilian death, leading to a harsher Israeli response, and without precision weaponry - more Palestinian death.  

[SoCal Deek]

And over here on the other side of the planet we sit in our comfortable existence, while sending our borrowed money and weapons to people bent on killing each other. It’s exhausting! 

[meazza]

20 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If Israel didn’t have access to the weaponry they do, it would be a bloodbath.   
 

The Iron Dome would allow more rockets through, leading to more civilian death, leading to a harsher Israeli response, and without precision weaponry - more Palestinian death.  

I’m aware.  I was just commenting on if the USA decided to put pressure on Israel by limiting funds and arms sales, they’d probably still find away.

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And over here on the other side of the planet we sit in our comfortable existence, while sending our borrowed money and weapons to people bent on killing each other. It’s exhausting! 

It’s not really borrowed if you never pay it back.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

I know you like to throw out some loosely constructed jabs at people of faith, but these old books you speak of are full of historical records. I’m not sure what you think they are. 

[meazza]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Not to be crass, but other than being mentioned in some old books, what makes that land there so desirable? Is it loaded with natural resources or super arable ? 
 

 

 

The religious context is the location of the Temple Mount and the Al Asqa Mosque as well as the final resting place of Jesus.

 

In terms of land, surrounded by beaches and great weather.  I went once and would love to go back.