The BIG LIE

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

18 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

This is a single study done by a single group of researchers.  It is retrospective and requires significant conjecture to make a conclusion.  Sounds a lot like the early hydroxchloroquine studies.  As I frequently hear from respected colleagues:  "lets wait for more studies".  The bigger question in my mind is, why did the Russians want trump to win so badly and devote significant resources to him winning?  The fact that they may have done a sh!!!y job of it on twitter is fortunate but not nearly as important as their motives.

I’ll take a stab at that and go with the assumption that the goal was to get Trump elected.   
 

I think the Russian government knows the American people better than the American people know themselves.   They know our amazing ability to rally on behalf of a cause or after a catastrophic event.  They also know our tendency to huddle in political tribes and almost uncanny ability to hunker down and stick to “our guy” in spite of obvious, almost insurmountable evidence that “our guy” has major flaws as a person or candidate and fight the good fight until the very end.  
 

Donald Trump was a political outsider, a non-establishment candidate who captured the attention of voters tired of Bush, Clinton, McConnell, Pelosi and the like.   At the same time, he represented that which any enemy of any country would want for their foe:  Chaos.  
 

A Trump nomination and presidency was a thumb in the eye of the R party, and a rejecting of the heir apparent to the D party.  Trump’s absolute commitment to chaos as a business model was a factor as well. 
 

Surely the Russians would know Trump would be under attack on all fronts, and he surely was.  The Dems said the election was stolen and illegitimate.  People bought that narrative.  Chaos.  The FBI launched a direct attack from day one, putting a previously well respected military veteran on blast and faced with falling on his sword or watching his son destroyed.   Chaos.    They surely knew that information beneficial to the Trump cause would be suppressed—witness the period of time between allegations of hookers and urine, when Obama and Biden were made aware of the Clinton campaign involvement and foreign agent Christopher Steel and when the public as a whole got that memo.  Chaos.   Special Counsel assigned to probe connections between Trump and Russia…Chaos.   Mueller fails to establish a connection and taps out in spite of heavy handed tactics, offers for deals, attempts to get people to flip.  No one on the dem side cares.  Chaos.
 

In the end, the Russians got exactly what they wanted—a country divided, anger and animosity.  
 

That lead to the vote for elect Biden—a career simpleton bounced from prior races because he’s an a$&—and a guy the Russians knew very, very well.  At that point, it was only a matter of time before the onslaught of Ukraine began. 
 

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

If you are older than me but you seem to forget 2000 and 2016 and "trust" in our elections. You also don't seem to be aware of all the shenanigans that went on with Tammany Hall and those types. We have many times in our past questioned elections and tried to improve them. The 2020 election was a crap show, mainly due to circumstances, and improvements should be made. To disregard the problems means that the result is all that matters 

We were sightseeing in DC the day SCOTUS ruled on Gore/Bush in 2000.  Watched the show outside for 1/2 hour.  It was fascinating and peaceful.  While I disagreed with the decision, I actually felt more confident in democracy.  Improvements were made; no more chads.  There is still no widespread evidence of fraud in the 2016 election that would come close to changing the outcome (save the 11000 votes that were to be found in Ga).  Everything can be improved.  But rioting and questioning the validity of the entire system and then convincing the masses of that is disingenuous and aimed at tearing down the bedrock principle of elections and weakening democracy.

[Orlando Buffalo]

2 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

We were sightseeing in DC the day SCOTUS ruled on Gore/Bush in 2000.  Watched the show outside for 1/2 hour.  It was fascinating and peaceful.  While I disagreed with the decision, I actually felt more confident in democracy.  Improvements were made; no more chads.  There is still no widespread evidence of fraud in the 2016 election that would come close to changing the outcome (save the 11000 votes that were to be found in Ga).  Everything can be improved.  But rioting and questioning the validity of the entire system and then convincing the masses of that is disingenuous and aimed at tearing down the bedrock principle of elections and weakening democracy.

So you feel violent protests is when the system is in trouble?

[Joe Ferguson forever]

33 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’ll take a stab at that and go with the assumption that the goal was to get Trump elected.   
 

I think the Russian government knows the American people better than the American people know themselves.   They know our amazing ability to rally on behalf of a cause or after a catastrophic event.  They also know our tendency to huddle in political tribes and almost uncanny ability to hunker down and stick to “our guy” in spite of obvious, almost insurmountable evidence that “our guy” has major flaws as a person or candidate and fight the good fight until the very end.  
 

Donald Trump was a political outsider, a non-establishment candidate who captured the attention of voters tired of Bush, Clinton, McConnell, Pelosi and the like.   At the same time, he represented that which any enemy of any country would want for their foe:  Chaos.  
 

A Trump nomination and presidency was a thumb in the eye of the R party, and a rejecting of the heir apparent to the D party.  Trump’s absolute commitment to chaos as a business model was a factor as well. 
 

Surely the Russians would know Trump would be under attack on all fronts, and he surely was.  The Dems said the election was stolen and illegitimate.  People bought that narrative.  Chaos.  The FBI launched a direct attack from day one, putting a previously well respected military veteran on blast and faced with falling on his sword or watching his son destroyed.   Chaos.    They surely knew that information beneficial to the Trump cause would be suppressed—witness the period of time between allegations of hookers and urine, when Obama and Biden were made aware of the Clinton campaign involvement and foreign agent Christopher Steel and when the public as a whole got that memo.  Chaos.   Special Counsel assigned to probe connections between Trump and Russia…Chaos.   Mueller fails to establish a connection and taps out in spite of heavy handed tactics, offers for deals, attempts to get people to flip.  No one on the dem side cares.  Chaos.
 

In the end, the Russians got exactly what they wanted—a country divided, anger and animosity.  
 

That lead to the vote for elect Biden—a career simpleton bounced from prior races because he’s an a$&—and a guy the Russians knew very, very well.  At that point, it was only a matter of time before the onslaught of Ukraine began. 
 

 

 

 

agree with much of this.  I disagree with Ukraine.  If that was Russia's thinking they totally miscalculated.  I agree that they supported Trump to divide America.  They relish the class and culture wars that have raged as a result.  It helps them advance the narrative that capitalism and democracy work poorly and only for a few and that truth is subjective.   I'm sure they were very pleased with his attacks on the press, something that they do continuously. It's telling that Russian trolls took both extreme sides on social media to cause hatred and bigotry. I also think they saw a man almost exclusively motivated by self interest who they could easily manipulate.  They cherish the idea of American isolationism and a weakened NATO.  Idealists are more difficult studies.   Finally, given trump's lifestyle and ethics (Stormy Daniels anyone?), I wouldn't easily discount the possibility of Kompramat.

27 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

So you feel violent protests is when the system is in trouble?

try again in English

Edited January 10, 2023 by redtail hawk

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

agree with much of this.  I disagree with Ukraine.  If that was Russia's thinking they totally miscalculated.  I agree that they supported Trump to divide America.  They relish the class and culture wars that have raged as a result.  It helps them advance the narrative that capitalism works poorly and only for a few.  It's telling that Russian trolls took both extreme sides on social media to cause hatred and bigotry. I also think they saw a man almost exclusively motivated by self interest who they could easily manipulate.  Idealists are more difficult studies.

try again in English

I’ll let you hash out the social media, bigotry and hate angle.  I’ve seen a sh$t-ton of hatred, condescension and vile behavior from certain elements of the democrat base, including accusations of cults, nazism etc.  I think that’s a symptom of a larger problem, and if a dopey tweet from somebody convinces someone of anything, they were already gone to begin with. 
 

They also would have supported Trump because they knew the tendencies of the modern Democrat party.  They had telegraphed the stolen election narrative with Bush/Gore, they knew the Dems would stop at nothing to take out the candidate (regardless of who it was) based on “Bush lied, People Died (and later became a kindly old grandpa we all can love)”.   
 

We can agree to disagree on Ukraine (and Crimea previously), but the facts seem fairly clear on when the Russians opted to launch their offensive.  That they may have miscalculated doesn’t change that dynamic. 
 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

4 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’ll let you hash out the social media, bigotry and hate angle.  I’ve seen a sh$t-ton of hatred, condescension and vile behavior from certain elements of the democrat base, including accusations of cults, nazism etc.  I think that’s a symptom of a larger problem, and if a dopey tweet from somebody convinces someone of anything, they were already gone to begin with. 
 

They also would have supported Trump because they knew the tendencies of the modern Democrat party.  They had telegraphed the stolen election narrative with Bush/Gore, they knew the Dems would stop at nothing to take out the candidate (regardless of who it was) based on “Bush lied, People Died (and later became a kindly old grandpa we all can love)”.   
 

We can agree to disagree on Ukraine (and Crimea previously), but the facts seem fairly clear on when the Russians opted to launch their offensive.  That they may have miscalculated doesn’t change that dynamic. 
 

unsurprisingly, agree with almost nothing here except that there is hatred from the left as well.  Perhaps, they rightfully concluded that trump would grind away the thin veneer of civility, decency and dignity, by example, from a large swath of the populace.

[Doc]

47 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’ll take a stab at that and go with the assumption that the goal was to get Trump elected.   
 

I think the Russian government knows the American people better than the American people know themselves.   They know our amazing ability to rally on behalf of a cause or after a catastrophic event.  They also know our tendency to huddle in political tribes and almost uncanny ability to hunker down and stick to “our guy” in spite of obvious, almost insurmountable evidence that “our guy” has major flaws as a person or candidate and fight the good fight until the very end.  
 

Donald Trump was a political outsider, a non-establishment candidate who captured the attention of voters tired of Bush, Clinton, McConnell, Pelosi and the like.   At the same time, he represented that which any enemy of any country would want for their foe:  Chaos.  
 

A Trump nomination and presidency was a thumb in the eye of the R party, and a rejecting of the heir apparent to the D party.  Trump’s absolute commitment to chaos as a business model was a factor as well. 
 

Surely the Russians would know Trump would be under attack on all fronts, and he surely was.  The Dems said the election was stolen and illegitimate.  People bought that narrative.  Chaos.  The FBI launched a direct attack from day one, putting a previously well respected military veteran on blast and faced with falling on his sword or watching his son destroyed.   Chaos.    They surely knew that information beneficial to the Trump cause would be suppressed—witness the period of time between allegations of hookers and urine, when Obama and Biden were made aware of the Clinton campaign involvement and foreign agent Christopher Steel and when the public as a whole got that memo.  Chaos.   Special Counsel assigned to probe connections between Trump and Russia…Chaos.   Mueller fails to establish a connection and taps out in spite of heavy handed tactics, offers for deals, attempts to get people to flip.  No one on the dem side cares.  Chaos.
 

In the end, the Russians got exactly what they wanted—a country divided, anger and animosity.  
 

That lead to the vote for elect Biden—a career simpleton bounced from prior races because he’s an a$&—and a guy the Russians knew very, very well.  At that point, it was only a matter of time before the onslaught of Ukraine began.

 

This.  And as I've been saying, the Dems did far more damage than Putin could ever have hoped to do himself.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

unsurprisingly, agree with almost nothing here except that there is hatred from the left as well.  Perhaps, they rightfully concluded that trump would grind away the thin veneer of civility, decency and dignity, by example, from a large swath of the populace.

Which would make sense had there been any true civility left in American politics prior to Trump winning.  Deplorable, Irredeemable, etc.   

 

Trump was no angel on the field of battle, but bare knuckles politics has been a thing for an awfully long time.  
 

You’re pimping a narrative the facts don’t support and speaking only for myself,  I would probably be a bit more a sensitive to stolen election claims if it hadn’t worked so well for the democrats in 2016-2020.  Why didn’t you care then? 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Which would make sense had there been any true civility left in American politics prior to Trump winning.  Deplorable, Irredeemable, etc.   

 

Trump was no angel on the field of battle, but bare knuckles politics has been a thing for an awfully long time.  
 

You’re pimping a narrative the facts don’t support and speaking only for myself,  I would probably be a bit more a sensitive to stolen election claims if it hadn’t worked so well for the democrats in 2016-2020.  Why didn’t you care then? 

Because they didn't incite riots or refuse to transfer power.  There are bare knuckles and then there are improvised handcuffs, death threats to a sitting VP and militias threatening civil war.

Edited January 10, 2023 by redtail hawk

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Because they didn't incite riots or refuse to transfer power.

They spread disinformation and manipulated the American people, Red.  This isn't conjecture, this is fact.  They spoke of treason and stolen elections and that was complete boldfaced lie.  They said they had evidence and never revealed it. That was a lie.  They pitted citizen against citizen, they used the mechanisms designed to protect citizens to steam roll those who strayed from the one true god--establishment politics.  They did it quite artfully, tossing their supporters the occasional tax cheat, propping up Avenatti and Stormy, and when one alleged scandal died they counted on foolish people believing the next one.   When Russian collusion and Trump The Treasonous failed, they convinced you that it was never really about collusion--that's not really a thing, they said--it was about obstruction.....obstructing an investigation based on lies, manipulation and half-truths.  I still don't know why people aren't furious at being duped, but I think people lose their damn minds when the target isn't likable. 

 

For all the hand-wringing about Trump not leaving the WH, he left the WH when it was his time, and Joe Biden and his supporters had their COVID-spreading celebration.  

 

The Russians seemed to have accurately assessed both the democrat party and its supporters. They wanted chaos, and damn if you folks didn't give it to them.  

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

42 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Because they didn't incite riots or refuse to transfer power.  There are bare knuckles and then there are improvised handcuffs, death threats to a sitting VP and militias threatening civil war.

Wow.  I appreciate your honesty--not one left-leaning person has provided this sort of detail in reply to questions about the dem narrative of stolen elections.   Virtually every one has ignored the question, I think because it forces them to be introspective on allegations of stolen elections while pretending to be outraged about allegations of stolen elections.   Before people try to fool others, they have to fool themselves. 

 

Where you stand seems to be you're perfectly comfortable with manipulation of the voting public, outrageous and ridiculous allegations of treasonous behavior and subverting the will of the American people as long as it's the will of the other guy being subverted as long as certain conditions are met.   That's pretty &^%$ed up. 

 

2020 doesn't happen without 2016-2020, mostly because 2016 worked like a charm. 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

21 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Wow.  I appreciate your honesty--not one left-leaning person has provided this sort of detail in reply to questions about the dem narrative of stolen elections.   Virtually every one has ignored the question, I think because it forces them to be introspective on allegations of stolen elections while pretending to be outraged about allegations of stolen elections.   Before people try to fool others, they have to fool themselves. 

 

Where you stand seems to be you're perfectly comfortable with manipulation of the voting public, outrageous and ridiculous allegations of treasonous behavior and subverting the will of the American people as long as it's the will of the other guy being subverted as long as certain conditions are met.   That's pretty &^%$ed up. 

 

2020 doesn't happen without 2016-2020, mostly because 2016 worked like a charm. 

 

 

 

 

I'm nothing if not blunt.  Don't need to see my poker face to know what I'm thinking. Transparency is (usually) good.  So i'm glad you like honesty, Len.

Edited January 10, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

20 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

I was and I'm still against the Citizens united decision.  It has made corporatocray stronger and weakened the peoples power.

But yet Most constantly revert to the possitions of said Corporpate funded PACS.

 

Shoot. half of these threads are people posting memes and clips from PACS like its news.

 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

19 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

SCOTUS ruled on it.  Maybe we should change it.

Who is we. the corporate owned politicians?

And at this point its easy to see the mobs on all sides follow said PACS.

 

 

15 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

unsurprisingly, agree with almost nothing here except that there is hatred from the left as well.  Perhaps, they rightfully concluded that trump would grind away the thin veneer of civility, decency and dignity, by example, from a large swath of the populace.

yeah. Somehow the orange dude and non stop Orange man bad parroting got the left to devolve into lacking civility, decency, dignity and what not?

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 hours ago, Chris farley said:

Who is we. the corporate owned politicians?

And at this point its easy to see the mobs on all sides follow said PACS.

 

 

yeah. Somehow the orange dude and non stop Orange man bad parroting got the left to devolve into lacking civility, decency, dignity and what not?

 

 

We the people.

 

Yes, there were mobs on both sides.  Personally had no involvement and find the acts disgusting and counterproductive. I would say that many more militant hate groups align with the right.  But, yes, stupid people call themselves both Republicans and Democrats.  Maybe the answer is education but R's seem to be against that.  Someone in this thread disparaged STEM.  Oh, and kids studying at universities.  If it were up to these folks, we'd be typing by candlelight😃, have no vaccines and be dying from polio.

 

Agree. The hate was always there.  I didn't realize how prevalent it is.  Trump just made it "normal" and allowed haters to slither from under the rocks.

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

We the people.

 

Yes, there were mobs on both sides.  Personally had no involvement and find the acts disgusting and counterproductive. I would say that many more militant hate groups align with the right.  But, yes, stupid people call themselves both Republicans and Democrats.  Maybe the answer is education but R's seem to be against that.  Someone in this thread disparaged STEM.  Oh, and kids studying at universities.  If it were up to these folks, we'd be typing by candlelight😃, have no vaccines and be dying from polio.

 

Agree. The hate was always there.  I didn't realize how prevalent it is.  Trump just made it "normal" and allowed haters to slither from under the rocks.

 

 

Like I said. 

 

 

[BillStime]

ETTD 

 

Every loser leverages the Bug Lie, right @BillsFanNC?

 

 

[BillStime]

 

[B-Man]

 

 

The FBI knew RussiaGate was a lie — but hid that truth.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/the-fbi-knew-russiagate-was-a-lie-but-hid-that-truth/

 

 

 

[BillStime]

What a winning strategy

 

Bet they won’t have said “infrastructure” in FloriDUH