The Importance Of Balance For The OL

[Paup 1995MVP]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I would disagree on not having zone type backs, Moss is actually perfect for that, he likes going north and south, more of a one cut and go type than anything.  DS can run in pretty much anything, he’s just not fast, but neither was Terrell Davis and that worked out ok for him.  Breida has to stay healthy before I even bother worrying about what he can do.

Please don't mention Devin Singletary and Terrell Davis in the same breath.  There is no comparison other then they both are black.  Have two legs two arms and one head.  Davis had an amazing run from 95-98.  He also had a great run blocking O line.  But there is no comparison in their abilities.  As I always say about Tremaine Edmunds.  Lets hope there is significant improvement this upcoming season.  Go Bills!!

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

It's true, those guys should be fine in any scheme. I think Moss would be an absolute beast in a Greg Roman type of Power O. 

 

 

Maybe......but the thing is........outside zone is what Moss knows best.    Roman's offense was great for running backs.......the inside zone stuff made the decision making a little easier for all types of RB's.......Karlos and MG were one cut guys.........McCoy was a dancer.......but once McCoy realized that he could do it if he just followed the play design, he excelled.   Outside zone the OL has to be more athletic and your back needs to be more decisive and instinctive.   McCoy couldn't handle that in 2017 and his OL didn't execute it well either.   Breida has proven successful in it.   Singletary is the question mark as a scheme fit.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Please don't mention Devin Singletary and Terrell Davis in the same breath.  There is no comparison other then they both are black.  Have two legs two arms and one head.  Davis had an amazing run from 95-98.  He also had a great run blocking O line.  But there is no comparison in their abilities.  As I always say about Tremaine Edmunds.  Lets hope there is significant improvement this upcoming season.  Go Bills!!

 

 

There aren't any RB's on the Bills roster as slow as Terrell Davis.

 

Style-wise Antonio Williams is the most like TD on the Bills roster........but a lot faster.....4.52 versus TD's woeful 4.72.

 

If the Bills are indeed going to stick with OZ then you don't need a dynamic talent at RB to put up big production.   

 

49ers went to the SB a couple years ago with their top 2 backs being UDFA's.........Breida being one of them.

 

Funny how nobody was crying that Shanahan should be drafting a RB in round 1.

 

I get that people don't trust Daboll to execute the system as well as a Shanny but it's the same style of running game. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There aren't any RB's on the Bills roster as slow as Terrell Davis.

 

Style-wise Antonio Williams is the most like TD on the Bills roster........but a lot faster.....4.52 versus TD's woeful 4.72.

 

If the Bills are indeed going to stick with OZ then you don't need a dynamic talent at RB to put up big production.   

 

49ers went to the SB a couple years ago with their top 2 backs being UDFA's.........Breida being one of them.

 

Funny how nobody was crying that Shanahan should be drafting a RB in round 1.

 

I get that people don't trust Daboll to execute the system as well as a Shanny but it's the same style of running game. 

 

I agree. I think an outside zone running scheme is fine. What the Shanny line of coaches has always done well is pluck super athletic zone type linemen to run their system. We have some athletic guys with really high RAS numbers and some slow plodders and that's why I think our line has a bit of an identity crisis. If we are truly an outside zone team Ford, Boettger, Feliciano should not see the field. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There aren't any RB's on the Bills roster as slow as Terrell Davis.

 

Style-wise Antonio Williams is the most like TD on the Bills roster........but a lot faster.....4.52 versus TD's woeful 4.72.

 

If the Bills are indeed going to stick with OZ then you don't need a dynamic talent at RB to put up big production.   

 

49ers went to the SB a couple years ago with their top 2 backs being UDFA's.........Breida being one of them.

 

Funny how nobody was crying that Shanahan should be drafting a RB in round 1.

 

I get that people don't trust Daboll to execute the system as well as a Shanny but it's the same style of running game. 

Having the best TE in football certainly helps.  I'm not sure williams and feliciano are good enough at it though.  Morse is athletic enough, and i think he was somewhat of an asset in the run game in 2019, so not sure what killed him in 2020.  

 

You don't need RB speed to execute an outside zone rushing attack, you do to bust out big runs i suppose, but arian foster ran for like 6000 yards and was like a 4.7 guy.

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I agree. I think an outside zone running scheme is fine. What the Shanny line of coaches has always done well is pluck super athletic zone type linemen to run their system. We have some athletic guys with really high RAS numbers and some slow plodders and that's why I think our line has a bit of an identity crisis. If we are truly an outside zone team Ford, Boettger, Feliciano should not see the field. 

 

Yep - Williams too.  He can anchor solidly on the right, but backside backers slip right by him and blow up runs constantly. 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills have a decision to make this offseason. They can choose to ignore the run and say we’re going all in on a passing attack because that’s our strength ...or they can spend the summer fixing what didn’t work, the running game. There’s only so many practice sessions and preseason games to get it done. I place this squarely in the lap of the OC and I’m hoping he chooses the latter. There’s no savior draft pick or free agent coming to ignite the run game. As Gene Hackman told the fans, players and their parents in Hoosiers “This is your team!” It’s time to get to work Brian.

 

 

That is a false dichotomy.

 

It's like saying you can get married or be alone for the rest of your life. There are actually an infinity of other alternatives.

 

Our choice will actually be something like the difference between a 55:45 ratio or a 60:40 ratio. 

 

They're both important.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That is a false dichotomy.

 

It's like saying you can get married or be alone for the rest of your life. There are actually an infinity of other alternatives.

 

Our choice will actually be something like the difference between a 55:45 ratio or a 60:40 ratio. 

 

They're both important.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at.  Many times this past season it looked like Daboll was using the Run Game as a complete after thought in his Game Plan.  Run a couple times straight into the line to keep the defense 'honest'.  You're not going to get better at it if you don't spend more time on it in practice, and in play construction, technique, scheme, etc.  I am bit concerned that Daboll doesn't really want to spend more time on it. He's happy living and dying on his passing game, and will continue to use the run game as a decoy. I hope I'm wrong.

[DCofNC]

7 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Please don't mention Devin Singletary and Terrell Davis in the same breath.  There is no comparison other then they both are black.  Have two legs two arms and one head.  Davis had an amazing run from 95-98.  He also had a great run blocking O line.  But there is no comparison in their abilities.  As I always say about Tremaine Edmunds.  Lets hope there is significant improvement this upcoming season.  Go Bills!!

Oh I’m sure as heck not comparing the two, just saying speed doesn’t necessarily define success.

[wppete]

Sure I see the point but when you have a QB like Josh that can rip it all over the field and a group of weapons I say we pass like crazy run on occasion and let Josh improvise and run when the play breaks down. We have the biggest and best weapon playing QB in the NFL. 
 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by wppete

[MrEpsYtown]

12 hours ago, wppete said:

Sure I see the point but when you have a QB like Josh that can rip it all over the field and a group of weapons I say we pass like crazy run on occasion and let Josh improvise and run when the play breaks down. We have the biggest and best weapon playing QB in the NFL. 
 

 

 

I agree with this. We need to be a pass first offense. But when we do run it has to be effective to set up the play action game. That is how you become a Super Bowl team. With the defensive fronts teams give us and the fact that they have to spy Josh, you have to have a competent run game with an actual identity.  

[Don Otreply]

14 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at.  Many times this past season it looked like Daboll was using the Run Game as a complete after thought in his Game Plan.  Run a couple times straight into the line to keep the defense 'honest'.  You're not going to get better at it if you don't spend more time on it in practice, and in play construction, technique, scheme, etc.  I am bit concerned that Daboll doesn't really want to spend more time on it. He's happy living and dying on his passing game, and will continue to use the run game as a decoy. I hope I'm wrong.

Beane specifically addressed the run game issues in the season end PC, he in a not so subtle way told the coaches and players that we will have an effective run game going forward, I’m confident that the OC, OL coach, RBs coach and the players got the message..., I’m certain Beane was not giving lip service to the problem, if the run game schemes fail, some folks employment status will be tenuous to to say the least, that is usually a motivating factor. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Beane specifically addressed the run game issues in the season end PC, he in a not so subtle way told the coaches and players that we will have an effective run game going forward, I’m confident that the OC, OL coach, RBs coach and the players got the message..., I’m certain Beane was not giving lip service to the problem, if the run game schemes fail, some folks employment status will be tenuous to to say the least, that is usually a motivating factor. 

Well...we’re gonna see.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well...we’re gonna see.

Yes we will, fingers crossed 🤞 that what ever they are going to do works the way they want it to,

[Ethan in Cleveland]

They won 13 games in the regular season.  They need a pass rush and a MLB that can play.  

[Rockinon]

21 hours ago, wppete said:

Sure I see the point but when you have a QB like Josh that can rip it all over the field and a group of weapons I say we pass like crazy run on occasion and let Josh improvise and run when the play breaks down. We have the biggest and best weapon playing QB in the NFL. 
 

 

And by the time we made it to the playoffs all our our receivers looked like they needed crutches to hop around on.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:22 AM, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

I'm likely higher on the addition of Matt Breida than most, but his elite speed should force defenses to respect the possibility of off-tackle runs unlike last season where they could cheat inside. Hoping he can stay healthy and get a handful of snaps each game.

I too am looking forward to see what Breida and Moss can do. I'm not putting much stock in Singletary's success.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Beane said we need to run better but we still need to run more, not a lot more but enough so that we can actually run the ball. Its hard to have an effective run game when you run 3 times in a half. Some might say that we had the most yards and points ever, which is true but if the other team shuts down your pass game you need to rely on the run to get you through.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:26 PM, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I think we are in a weird place in terms of what we want to do with our O-Line and running game. We have a mixed bag of O-Lineman. Guys like Dawkins (who is very athletic) and Feliciano are supposed to be "mauler" type guys. Then you have Morse, Bates and the guys who we drafted who are athletic types along with a guy like Forrest Lamp who are more finesse type players with extremely high RAS scores. We saw more running success two years ago when we had a fullback and ran more pin and pull and gap type plays. We seem to be heading more towards a zone type team, but don't have zone type running backs. And we have linemen like Ford, Boettger, and Feliciano who do not excel in the zone game and moving laterally. 

 

So I feel like there is an identity crisis goin on. And that's why I think Lamp will eventually start if they want better pass blockers.

 

If you want an athletic, pass heavy team you go: 

Dawkins-Lamp-Morse-Bates-Williams (All college LTs except Williams)

 

If you want to go Heavy big guys you go: 

Dawkins-Boettger-Feliciano-Ford-Williams

 

I don't think any of those wind up as the starting offensive line. I like the first group better. They are highly athletic and actually very strong (Morse 36 reps, Lamp 34, Bates 28). 

 

At the end of the day, it is going to be some combination of these guys, which again shows the identity crisis in run game construction. 

 

I think this hits one of the critical nails on the head and I have been saying it since early last season - they don't have the right backs for this set of blockers and they don't have the right set of blockers for this set of backs. It is the conceptual inconsistency that is a large part of the problem. Personally I'd build the line for Josh first and foremost (which largely I think they have tried to) and then find backs that fit that - which to me is speedier, outside zone types. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Nihilarian]

Beane did mention that he wants to see the Bills utilize the run game better. 

 

''This offseason, Beane cited the loss to the Chiefs as exposing Buffalo’s season-long deficiencies in being unable to consistently run the ball, and an undersized defensive front that had difficulty stopping the run and pressuring quarterbacks.

“Maybe a little more balance of the run game, and I’m not saying run it 20 times, throw it 20 times,” Beane said. “I’m just saying the ability to run it when you have to.”

 

https://www.foxsports.com/articles/nfl/bills-have-offseason-needs-to-address-with-little-to-spend

 

They know!

 

Let's not forget that there were games last season in which the offense simply couldn't get going in the first half of a game for whatever reason. The NY Jets second game, Pittsburgh, Baltimore in the playoffs and others where they were stymied in that first quarter!

 

With the addition of Brieda, perhaps finally getting Christian Wade on the field this season, Williams, Moss and Singletary. The Bills should improve in the run game. Stinks that Wade didn't get a pre season last year and we should see him a lot this pre season. 

 

I have a man-crush on the Bills 3rd round pick in the draft in OT Spencer Brown. Plus added OT Tommy Doyle in round 5 and round 7 OG Jack Anderson who could convert to OC. Clearly the Bills GM looking at fortifying the O line for the future.  

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

 

I have a man-crush on the Bills 3rd round pick in the draft in OT Spencer Brown. Plus added OT Tommy Doyle in round 5 and round 7 OG Jack Anderson who could convert to OC. Clearly the Bills GM looking at fortifying the O line for the future.  

 

Brown and Anderson might be my two favourite picks in terms of talent, scheme fit and value where taken. My worry with Anderson is whether we will be able to stash him a year on the PS. I feel like that is the way they would ideally go with him before hoping he wins a roster job in 2022 but other teams may have an eye on him. 

 

Worth saying in the context of this discussion though that they both fit more of that pass block first, athletic guy profile than big, ugly, run game, road graders.