machine gun kelly Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 3 hours ago, H2o said: And as you described, such is life in the field you chose. It tends to be different for medical professionals than any other field. I see this in the same light as a flu shot. I've never had one in my 44 years of existence. I don't need it. I don't want it. It's not required by anyone I've ever worked for. My kids only received it one time because my ex-wife let them get it at the Pediatrician's office when they went in for a regular check up. Within a couple of weeks they both had the flu. With my youngest who was 3 at the time his turned from the flu to RSV, then from RSV into a viral pneumonia. He ended up in the PICU for 4 days. He almost died. They said if he hadn't been transferred to the hospital we ended up at, from the one trying to discharge him where we took him in to be seen, that within 24 hours he would have been on a ventilator. It was the worst sickness he has endured in his life and he's 13 now. We've also had the flu itself go through the house 3 or so times, but it never turned into anything remotely near that. No flu shots for them since then. The ever widening gap between the Recovery vs Death rates with the rona reinforce my thoughts on it. Back when all of this was getting moving in April of last year the death rate for the infected was at 20.40%. Now, with millions more cases to go off of, that has dropped all the way down to 2.36%. The recovery rate gains a 100th of a % point every couple of days it seems. Hardly worthy of a national mandate to take a jab. And if they try? I will deal with that when it happens. I've already told my employer if that happens I will no longer be there. There's a reason that only 30-35% of the people have lined up to get it. It's not for lack of availability. There's a reason that doses are having to be tossed due to expiration as the desire to get it slows down. There's a reason that places like Florida and Texas are thriving. There's a reason you're seeing a lot of people migrating to those two states at this point. Regardless of how many of you view the vaccine on this board, there are many who don't share your stance. Just like many on here, in this small circle, don't share mine. You don't have to agree with me and I can respect you being on the other side. It really has no relevance to where I stand though. People can point their fingers, try to exclude me from whatever, call me whatever, make whatever claims they want, try to use whatever reasoning as to why I'm wrong, it won't change a thing. Water, I wasn’t saying it has to happen and people in this world can choose not to get vaccinated towards standard vaccinations, but they also then live with home schooling their kids. As you said it’s a choice. My point simply is the world is moving in this direction whether people like it or not. As an aside, my middle son had rsv as he was a premature baby at 28 weeks weighing 2lbs. 4 oz. and also four years later had pneumonia five times given reactive airway as his aveoli were under formed until we had proper treatment. I know the fears all too well living in a ped icu more days and nights than I can count. flu shots are a different thing and don’t want to debate it’s relevance. I’m glad you’re child is ok sincerely as I think you know me by now. as I said, in a perfect world people should have a choice in their body, but society can also make choices too and then you lose certain access to things. again I’m glad you’re child is ok. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 10 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said: Because we don't know anything about it. There's no relevant record of clinical trials, and generally it's just a breach of privacy. I'm pro vaccination 100%, but not as a guinea pig, and not for something my body can pretty easily shake off. Who knows what this thing does. It could ignite a tumor that is and was going to stay dormant. Or accelerate one that we'd normally have a chance to catch and treat. Will it definitely do that? I dunno, but nobody does. Threatening your ability to provide for your family, to involuntarily put something in your body you don't want, is wayyyyy over stepping, bordering criminal act against your own people. Nooo no no Wouldn't you agree that concern for unknown lasting effects of a novel virus ought to at least factor in there to an NFL player, at least equally, to concern for unknown long term effects of a novel vaccine? There's a lot of PR about the vaccine in the media, some of it correct some not. There's not a lot of airplay given to what we're learning about the SARS-COV2 viral infection effects. We continue to learn new things about the side effects even of viruses that have been known and studied for decades. As I said ... if I were a player, an elite athlete whose body is my meal ticket, I would want to collect all the information I could about if covid-19 is really something "I can pretty easily shake off" or whether, for a significant percentage of young healthy people with mild infections, it has lasting effects Joe Sofa Spud might not notice, but that could make a difference to an elite athlete who needs every bit of his cardiac and pulmonary output AND his mental acuity. @Mango posted way back the experience of the Women's Olympic Rowing team, how many of the team caught covid from a trainer and recovered on their own, but then spent months working their way back from "talented HS level" to "elite World Class level" on the objective measure of the Ergometer. Obviously, they "shook it off on their own" but still had lasting effects that would potentially ruin the chance of a young player to make the team. Developing cardiomyopathy and going out for the season didn't exactly help Tommy Sweeney's case. What I think we lack is a cogent data base of these covid-19 effects on the elite performance of top athletes, but there is some stuff out there, and if I were an NFL player making a choice that's the info I'd want to seek out. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 10 hours ago, BillsVet said: It is quite a generalization to state that courts have "pretty uniformly" decided on vaccination requirements. You've long insisted on objective evidence to support assertions, and relevant case law is essential to your position here. Please cite the cases. I'm really not going to go there here, BillsVet. It's general and beyond the scope of NFL-relevant discussion. You may educate yourself by googling "Mandatory vaccination supreme court" or "When did vaccination become mandatory in the US?" or "Can Covid-19 vaccine be mandatory in the US?" I suggest you look for hits involving Wiki, Law Schools, and Public Health Schools. The relevant information here is that 1) it has been repeatedly held by the courts that state and local governments, employers, schools etc may mandate vaccination that is relevant to job performance or significant for public health, provided exceptions for legitimate medical and religious reasons are allowed - if you don't believe this, go educate yourself from reputable sources, it's not an "alternate fact", it's historically true 2) the NFLPA and NFL have agreed that the NFL WILL NOT (emphasis mine) mandate covid-19 vaccination for players 3) the NFL (and some other sports leagues) have said that employees who are not fully vaccinated will not be allowed contact with players. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 8 hours ago, H2o said: Which is why Roger came out and told Beane he wasn't allowed to say that? That's the thing, there is no league wide mandate. That means it seems discriminatory to use it as a reason of termination. It absolutely would be discriminatory (to cut someone for being unvaccinated while vaccination is not required). But you know, as an industry vet, I can tell you that discriminatory termination for "legitimate" reasons happen all the time. As long as it's cloaked in a legitimate reason, it's pretty damned hard to prove, certainly on a case-by-case basis. The NFL has made clear Beane can't call a player into his office and say "we're releasing you because you're unvaccinated". But he can call a player into his office and say "we appreciate how hard you've worked, but we need to cut a cornerback and we think the other guys offer a better fit for what we're trying to accomplish here". If one of the reasons a different guy offers a better fit happens to be because he's vaccinated and helps them meet their NFL mandated numbers, that's between Beane and the mentally-stored portion of his confidential player evaluation file. As Jay Skursky wrote in The Buffalo News, Quote Of course, general managers cut players in the NFL all the time. There would be no way for the league to fact check exactly why Beane cut a player on the back half of his roster. 1 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 2 hours ago, wppete said: Id like to see Josh Allen challenge this idea. I’m willing to bet the Bills don’t cut Josh if he doesn’t get vaccinated. Let’s see how it plays out, should be entertaining. Of course they wouldn't cut Josh Allen. Or Jordan Poyer, for that matter, who would shock me (pleasantly) to the core if he got vaccinated. They're starters. For the Brave Soul (or ***** Disturber, depending on one's perspective) who brought up Kaepernick and kneeling, Shady McCoy at the time called it out perfectly. In the NFL, it's all about the mix of talent and controversy/disruption a guy brings. If Kaepernick was lighting the league on fire when he started kneeling, he'd likely still be on a team. Is he more talented than guys who are still on rosters as backups or fringe starters? Almost certainly. But when you're a fringe player, the team has much lower tolerance for any controversy or distraction you might bring. In the case of covid-19, the league will force a team to operate in a horridly hindered manner if enough players aren't vaccinated, so if you're a fringe player and the fringe guy next to you is vaxxed up, whether or not a GM says it out loud in the press, the writing on the wall is there. Josh Allen can't "challenge this idea". What he can do, if he forgoes vaccination is: 1) put more pressure on the bottom of the roster guys because more of them will need to be sacrificed to "make the quota" due to his personal decision (the ***** flows downhill principle) 2) put himself at risk of going out for the season due to cardiac effects or playing hindered due to pulmonary (Garrett) or neurological (implied by Beane of Cam Newton) effects, or even just being unavailable to the team for 1 or more games. I think Josh is a very smart guy and he needs to do a very careful investigation of possible long term health effects of mild virus infection, risk of unavailability to the team, vs possible vaccine risks to make a decision. 1 1
H2o Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It absolutely would be discriminatory Edit: to cut someone for being unvaccinated while vaccination is not required]. But you know, as an industry vet, I can tell you that discriminatory termination for "legitimate" reasons happen all the time. As long as it's cloaked in a legitimate reason, it's pretty damned hard to prove, certainly on a case-by-case basis. The NFL has made clear Beane can't call a player into his office and say "we're releasing you because you're unvaccinated". But he can call a player into his office and say "we appreciate how hard you've worked, but we need to cut a cornerback and we think the other guys offer a better fit for what we're trying to accomplish here". Of one of the reasons a different guy offers a better fit happens to be because he's vaccinated and helps them meet their NFL mandated numbers, that's between Beane and the mentally-stored portion of his confidential player evaluation file. Yes, an I have seen things like this in my line of work as well. We have roughly 150 employees for a maintenance contractor onsite who do various things. If a layoff were to take place it would unfold as such. Two guys doing the same job, making the same $$$, with the same attendance record, and the General Foreman has to lay someone off. If one of the two suffered a personal injury that resulted in an OSHA recordable accident then they will layoff that individual. You can't really prove that's why, but everyone knows that was the deciding factor.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 1 minute ago, H2o said: Yes, an I have seen things like this in my line of work as well. We have roughly 150 employees for a maintenance contractor onsite who do various things. If a layoff were to take place it would unfold as such. Two guys doing the same job, making the same $$$, with the same attendance record, and the General Foreman has to lay someone off. If one of the two suffered a personal injury that resulted in an OSHA recordable accident then they will layoff that individual. You can't really prove that's why, but everyone knows that was the deciding factor. Exactly. And in the NFL, even if they cut or trade the guy who later goes on to demonstrate superior skill with another team (Spencer Long vs Wyatt Teller), that happens all the time, pro personnel evaluators and coaches make mistakes or sometimes just getting cut is a "wake up call" to a player who goes on to improve.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2021 Posted May 8, 2021 On 5/5/2021 at 11:33 AM, Seasons1992 said: Tune in! Does anyone know if the interview is available online somewhere? Youtube? Buffalobills.com?
BillsFan692 Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 16 hours ago, wppete said: I completely agree I don’t think it will happen. And that will be very telling if a situation like that arises with a high profile player. It’s about the bottom line and that is $$$. Conversation should be entertaining. I think you are repeatedly missing the point but okay! 16 hours ago, wppete said: I completely agree I don’t think it will happen. And that will be very telling if a situation like that arises with a high profile player. It’s about the bottom line and that is $$$. Conversation should be entertaining. I think you are repeatedly missing the point but okay! 16 hours ago, wppete said: I completely agree I don’t think it will happen. And that will be very telling if a situation like that arises with a high profile player. It’s about the bottom line and that is $$$. Conversation should be entertaining. I think you are repeatedly missing the point but okay! 1
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 He will need to be tested every day and won’t be able to participate in team activities in the same way as I understand it ... Not trying to comment on or start any debate on the vaccine whatsoever, just posting at it relates to the Bills and if/how it could effect the team 1
Patrick Duffy Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: He will need to be tested every day and won’t be able to participate in team activities in the same way as I understand it ... Not trying to comment on or start any debate on the vaccine whatsoever, just posting at it relates to the Bills and if/how it could effect the team Curious as to how many other players decide not to get vaccinated and have to test all the time and miss team activities. What activities exactly? He will still practice and all that. Edited May 13, 2021 by Patrick_Duffy
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 Just now, Patrick_Duffy said: Curious as to how many other players decide not to get vaccinated and have to test all the time and miss team activities. What activities exactly? He will still practice and all that. I will need to go back and listen to Beane’s interview from last week. I can’t remember what he said specifically. There were some restrictions or something Hopefully, it’s not impactful
Patrick Duffy Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: I mean if he got the shot then wouldn't have to deal with that. Not nearly as much anyway.. guess he's just one of those that has his mind made up that he's not getting it. Oh well.... Edited May 13, 2021 by Patrick_Duffy
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Patrick_Duffy said: I mean if he got the shot then wouldn't have to deal with that. Not nearly as much anyway.. guess he's just one of those that has his mind made up that he's not getting it. Oh well.... There will be several throughout the league, I assume. Will be interesting to see what the league decides on the percentage of each team that needs to be vaccinated to hold “business as usual”
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Curious as to how many other players decide not to get vaccinated and have to test all the time and miss team activities. What activities exactly? He will still practice and all that. My understanding is that if a certain threshold percentage of players are vaccinated *in each group*, they have fewer restrictions on use of the training facilities, can have in-person meetings that aren't socially distanced, they only get tested once a week instead of every day, and they don't have to quarantine if they are close to someone who tests positive. If they don't have that threshold then the meetings have to be virtual, there are limits on the number of players who can use the training facilities at one time and they must be masked, they get tested every day etc etc etc. 1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said: He will need to be tested every day and won’t be able to participate in team activities in the same way as I understand it ... Not trying to comment on or start any debate on the vaccine whatsoever, just posting at it relates to the Bills and if/how it could effect the team Beas said that he turned over his social media to his PR people. Bad time to change. Good warning for me though I'll stay away.
HappyDays Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 It's stupid for Cole to start a controversy. If you don't want to get vaccinated, don't. No one is forcing you.
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2021 Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: It's stupid for Cole to start a controversy. If you don't want to get vaccinated, don't. No one is forcing you. He really should not have said anything on Twitter. Cess pool for that kind of thing.
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