Bills exercise 5th year options on QB Josh Allen & LB Tremaine Edmunds

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Thanks. As I say I consider myself middle of the road on Edmunds. There would be as many who consider me an apologist as there are who consider me a hater. I think a lot of the Bills woes on defense last year came down to how bad they were on 1st down. I have tried to pull the numbers but can't find them anywhere. My guess is we were towards the bottom of the league in 1st down defense. I think that hurts Edmunds too because it is hard to do quite as much misdirection and play action when you are constantly at 3rd and 7 or 3rd and 8. That forced you more into a dropback game which is where McDermott and Frazier want to be able to have Edmunds affect the passer with his range in coverage. Now the counter to that of course is a true 1st round level difference maker shouldn't need his big uglies to set the table for him to that extent but we all know that this defense and McDermott's ethos is about doing your 1/11th.

 

 

The primary risk with giving a high traffic, off-ball LB a fully guaranteed season 2 years from now is injury.     As discussed, we've lost young studs Damien Covington and Sam Cowart to sudden, basically career ending injuries.    Takeo Spikes injury reduced him from All Pro to a JAG overnight.     

 

Beane has taken risk like this before..........he surprisingly extended a 30+ Eric Wood in the summer of 2017..........a post-season physical revealed a neck issue........I believe Beane ended up eating $10M because of that.

[Fan in Chicago]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

No, my only point is that what fans think about a player is irrelevant

 

A lot of fans think good players are not good, and vice versa

 

I think Tremaine had a down year, but he came on strong towards the end of the year, and it be ludicrous to write him off 

 

He is a force in the middle of our defense, quarterbacks avoid throwing over him in our zone defense and he does make passing Lanes disappear

Fair enough. 

[Fan in Chicago]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It FULLY guarantees his 2022 salary.   Right now.   Regardless of quality of play or injury.......they can't cut him and save that money at any point now.  That's the way the 5th year option works now.

And that is the crux of my disagreement with this decision. One that did not need to be made. Extending him could have been done after the next season if he lived up to his potential in year 4. Worst case, in season. 

[Alphadawg7]

Im shocked!

 

***SAID NO ONE EVER***

[JaCrispy]

21 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I knew Gilmore was underrated.   Not franchise tagging him was a stupid decision.   Even if he didn't want to stay, anyone who knew how good he was knew he would have netted a high draft pick.   Maybe a #1.

 

I know Edmunds has been a disappointment.

 

Not the same situation.

 

It FULLY guarantees his 2022 salary.   Right now.   Regardless of quality of play or injury.......they can't cut him and save that money at any point now.  That's the way the 5th year option works now.

Right...so, you’re not able to cut a player without paying the option year once it’s guaranteed...but how does that work with an extension or trade? I think those are issues that myself and others are also referring to...I can’t find any info on how that works with 5th year options in the new CBA...

Edited May 4, 2021 by JaCrispy

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Right...so, you’re not able to cut a player without paying the option year once it’s guaranteed...but how does that work with an extension or trade? I think those are issues that myself and others are also referring to...I can’t find any info on how that works with 5th year options in the new CBA...

 

It's just like a guaranteed base salary.   They can mutually agree to a new deal and convert much or most of that fully guaranteed base salary to signing bonus etc........but the extension has to be for at least the value of the 5th year option,  of course.   The extension will probably be 4x that or more.

[JaCrispy]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It's just like a guaranteed base salary.   They can mutually agree to a new deal and convert much or most of that fully guaranteed base salary to signing bonus etc........but the extension has to be for at least the value of the 5th year option,  of course.   The extension will probably be 4x that or more.

Alright...and with a trade, do you know if the Bills would still be on the hook for anything?

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

You want a fortune cookie?

@nedboy7

 

I don't think you realize I've been talking to Royale for years and years and years lol like since the old bbmb 

 

I'm yanking his chain

 

 

[nedboy7]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

@nedboy7

 

I don't think you realize I've been talking to Royale for years and years and years lol like since the old bbmb 

 

I'm yanking his chain

 

 

got ya. 

[JaCrispy]

 

[GreggTX]

Allen was a no-brainer, but the decision to extend Edmunds surprised me. I just hope Edmunds rewards their faith in him by playing much better. I also hope Oliver starts catching on. He also has a lot of room for improvement. That's not to say that theyare terrible, but they are a hair's width above average and they were high draft picks.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, JaCrispy said:

Alright...and with a trade, do you know if the Bills would still be on the hook for anything?

 

No the option is 100% base salary.

[Chandler#81]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know why you keep arguing.   We all get it:  Edmunds doesn't do enough of the things that you think he should do.  They're things I think he should do, too.   All I've said is that I suspect he does things that you and I don't see that McDermott values more than the things you do.  

 

I'm not in One Bills Drive.  I don't know.  But I think if we could ask McDermott, he would tell us that Edmunds does things that make the defense successful, things that don't show up in stats that you and I look at.  

 

It's not a point you can argue against without looking foolish.   I've put forward a theory that you can't disprove.   It's also a theory I can't prove, because McDermott isn't having that conversation with us.  

 

Bro, just let it go.. I called the white coats -they’re on the way with a big net! He fancies himself Lord of Lords, King of Kings.. just do what we all do - flip him off and walk away..

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

I respect the **** out of you as a poster.  First off, I shouldn’t have spoken for all the haters. I’ve been called an Edmunds hater before, so I spoke for myself.  Other “haterz” may feel differently. 
 

But one can be a realist and not see things in the same light as other realists.  It doesn’t mean that people are “haterz” because they don’t feel a player is worth the money they are paid. 
 

you say they gave him the money because he was worth it.  Why did they give Addison the money?  Why did they give star the money?  Are you saying that every player that gets paid is worth it because the team feels that he’s worth it?   Or just the players that you feel are worth it? 
 

Without knowing the future, I knew that we would give him the 5th year option or resign him long term.  I didn’t want to just let him go after next season hoping for a comp pick in return.  We invested a lot in him and letting him slide away and get nothing would’ve been a negative move imo.  I think he has tremendous potential and still has a chance to be a special player.  I don’t feel he’s a special MLB based on his play last year.  
 

if you watched his play last season and thought that he was a legit pro bowl caliber player, I would just have to question how you evaluate LB play.  His play last season was not pro bowl worthy.  That’s reality, not hating.  I watch games.  Then I watch every game again and possibly a third time.  I watched a lot of Edmunds last year.  His lack of decisiveness is evident and not congruent with the way “great LBs” react. He is far too easily manipulated by the qb and play action
 

if you think he was a great LB last season, so be it.  You’re entitled to your opinion.  I disagree.  And that doesn’t make me a hater.  Saying that I don’t think he’s worth 12.7M doesn’t make me a hater.  
 

others.....well, other might very well be haters.  I’m not.  I don't underestimate him. i see what i see and i stand by my evaluations and i question those that think he was worthy of being a pro bowler.  the only reason he made it, imo, is because the AFC didnt have anyone worthy

 

if you think he worth the $ simply because the FO feels that way, that’s your right.  It mine to feel otherwise without being labeled

 

 

 

Thoughtful post, obviously coming from a good place. Thank you for the kind words.

 

I guess that there's so much hate of Edmunds from the same group of people that I end up balling it all together and treating it as one source, one phenomenon. I shouldn't do that so much. A lot of the  is knee-jerk scapegoating. Most of it, IMO. But that doesn't mean there aren't some thoughtful people who simply disagree.

 

If I've got a problem in my behavior, it's that I tend towards being cranky and brusque in my writing. Oughta be more diplomatic and amiable. I work on it, but I generally disappoint myself. I often write cranky posts and then go back fifteen minutes later to soften things. A lot of time the person has already seen it and it's too late. If I offended you, I'm genuinely sorry.

 

I still disagree with a lot of what you said, though. 

 

What do I think about Star and why they gave him the money? It's clear to me that they gave him the money because he was worth it, that he's done a very good job here, and that he was greatly missed last year, particularly early as they struggled to take guys they'd expected to put in roles better suited to their skill sets and instead spent a long time trying to figure out how to replace what they'd lost with Star. Having nobody like him, they had a very hard time doing it, but in so doing they also played guys out of position, changed roles and generally changed how their D that had been extremely successful the year before worked. Yeah they then with money problems asked for $1.75M back in the third year of his $50M contract, also giving him an extra year's guarantee and a year beyond that guaranteed against injury. Both sides got something from that.

 

And yeah, they gave Addison the money. It's a lot harder to predict how a guy will fit and play in your D when he hasn't been in  your locker room for years as Tremaine has. 

 

As for Edmunds and the money, McDermott is a top-flight defensive mind. I honestly don't know how anyone can argue that. And he supports and works to keep Edmunds here. He does that because the guy does what McDermott sees as his job. Not perfectly. But very well. Plenty here don't like his style, they obviously want a different style of guy. Many want a pounder, the old-fashioned type of MLB. He'll never be that.

 

I do watch Edmunds play and I did think he was a legit pro bowl caliber player ... after he recovered from his injury. So did the Pro Bowl voters. We can't say for sure about Pro Bowl status, but it's a decent bet that so did Beane and McDermott if they paid him $12M for an off-ball LB. But they're not the only ones. The fact is, that's the consensus. Most people think so. 

 

I didn't keep track of off-ball LB play throughout the AFC. Can't speak directly to that. But I do keep track of play generally, and there are a bunch of good LBs there in the AFC. How well they played last year specifically I don't know. But after the first six weeks or so, as Edmunds' arm got better and McDermott schemed around the loss of Star and found band-aids and stopgaps that stopped most of the bleeding, Edmunds played very well. Again, I can't compare to other ILBs around the AFC this particular year, but very well.

 

I haven't kept track of your status on Tremaine. You don't come across here as a hater, though obviously I thought you did a bit in the last one. You do come across as a person who is drastically underestimating Edmunds. As far as the hater thing, there are a bunch of them out there. From this post, you do not appear to be one of them. People here come across like villagers with pitchforks on Edmunds, Star and to a lesser degree, Ed Oliver. And I don't understand why.

 

When they had Star in 2019, had a 2nd year Edmunds and a rookie Oliver, they were an elite defense, and we still heard constant criticism from this certain group despite overwhelming, well-deserved praise of the D from around the league. Last year they started with injuries to Oliver and Edmunds and with the optout of Star. The D started very slow but as Oliver and Edmunds got healthy and McDermott found ways to scheme a 1-tech rather than having Star eat space, they became a top ten D. 

 

I really don't get it. This is a good group.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Alright...and with a trade, do you know if the Bills would still be on the hook for anything?

 

 

Future commitments of cash, whether or not they're guaranteed, can be traded away. The team that acquires the guy will acquire the commitment.

 

Commitments of cash that have already been met (in other words, money that's already been paid to the player) can not be traded away. Signing bonuses or roster bonuses or anything already paid must be accounted for on the cap of the team that  paid the money.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

The PFF guys said the best comp for JOK was that he was like a “faster Milano” and then he said “and I like Milano”.  I was surprised JOK made it past the Bills too.  Maybe if they wouldn’t have resigned Milano they would’ve taken him. 

JOK had a heart condition that apparently constituted the slide.  Pry cost him around 10 million bucks in total contract value and no chance at a 5th year option.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

15 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Yes, hes basically still a rookie.  Like Tyrod.

Reductio ad absurdum

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Thoughtful post, obviously coming from a good place. Thank you for the kind words.

 

I guess that there's so much hate of Edmunds from the same group of people that I end up balling it all together and treating it as one source, one phenomenon. I shouldn't do that so much. A lot of the  is knee-jerk scapegoating. Most of it, IMO. But that doesn't mean there aren't some thoughtful people who simply disagree.

 

If I've got a problem in my behavior, it's that I tend towards being cranky and brusque in my writing. Oughta be more diplomatic and amiable. I work on it, but I generally disappoint myself. I often write cranky posts and then go back fifteen minutes later to soften things. A lot of time the person has already seen it and it's too late. If I offended you, I'm genuinely sorry.

 

I still disagree with a lot of what you said, though. 

 

What do I think about Star and why they gave him the money? It's clear to me that they gave him the money because he was worth it, that he's done a very good job here, and that he was greatly missed last year, particularly early as they struggled to take guys they'd expected to put in roles better suited to their skill sets and instead spent a long time trying to figure out how to replace what they'd lost with Star. Having nobody like him, they had a very hard time doing it, but in so doing they also played guys out of position, changed roles and generally changed how their D that had been extremely successful the year before worked. Yeah they then with money problems asked for $1.75M back in the third year of his $50M contract, also giving him an extra year's guarantee and a year beyond that guaranteed against injury. Both sides got something from that.

 

And yeah, they gave Addison the money. It's a lot harder to predict how a guy will fit and play in your D when he hasn't been in  your locker room for years as Tremaine has. 

 

As for Edmunds and the money, McDermott is a top-flight defensive mind. I honestly don't know how anyone can argue that. And he supports and works to keep Edmunds here. He does that because the guy does what McDermott sees as his job. Not perfectly. But very well. Plenty here don't like his style, they obviously want a different style of guy. Many want a pounder, the old-fashioned type of MLB. He'll never be that.

 

I do watch Edmunds play and I did think he was a legit pro bowl caliber player ... after he recovered from his injury. So did the Pro Bowl voters. We can't say for sure about Pro Bowl status, but it's a decent bet that so did Beane and McDermott if they paid him $12M for an off-ball LB. But they're not the only ones. The fact is, that's the consensus. Most people think so. 

 

I didn't keep track of off-ball LB play throughout the AFC. Can't speak directly to that. But I do keep track of play generally, and there are a bunch of good LBs there in the AFC. How well they played last year specifically I don't know. But after the first six weeks or so, as Edmunds' arm got better and McDermott schemed around the loss of Star and found band-aids and stopgaps that stopped most of the bleeding, Edmunds played very well. Again, I can't compare to other ILBs around the AFC this particular year, but very well.

 

I haven't kept track of your status on Tremaine. You don't come across here as a hater, though obviously I thought you did a bit in the last one. You do come across as a person who is drastically underestimating Edmunds. As far as the hater thing, there are a bunch of them out there. From this post, you do not appear to be one of them. People here come across like villagers with pitchforks on Edmunds, Star and to a lesser degree, Ed Oliver. And I don't understand why.

 

When they had Star in 2019, had a 2nd year Edmunds and a rookie Oliver, they were an elite defense, and we still heard constant criticism from this certain group despite overwhelming, well-deserved praise of the D from around the league. Last year they started with injuries to Oliver and Edmunds and with the optout of Star. The D started very slow but as Oliver and Edmunds got healthy and McDermott found ways to scheme a 1-tech rather than having Star eat space, they became a top ten D. 

 

I really don't get it. This is a good group.

 

 

 

Nice Post.

 

I believe the biggest issue people have with Edmunds and Oliver’s play is related to the style of defense.  
 

The Bills play a very passive more traditional Tampa Cover 2 with a MLB they use in a specific deep cover roll.  Therefore - Edmunds first and primary responsibility is to get deep enough to prevent easy throws to the deep middle.  He then plays from back to front to move forward and make tackles on shorter middle routes and then running plays.  This design makes it fairly easy to attack short to mid range and also allows DL men to get off double teams and get a hold of him because he is not attacking run first.  Traditional old school LBs - attack run first in responsibility and therefore are in completely different positions relative to the LOS and the DL.

 

The Bills also seem to give their DL more responsibility- rather than just attack.  Jordan Phillips was a guy that played out of scheme and attacked and it got him sacks (great), but left holes that got exploited by teams (bad) to the tune that they were not aggressive in trying to re-sign him.  I think Oliver is doing more what they want, but it is a more passive role and ends up stifling his greatest attribute of quickness.

 

I would love to see how this team would change given a change in philosophy to more attacking and more pressure, but to be fair - their passive style did lead to the #2 and #3 defenses and they were for those 2 years a top passing defense and were tops against TEs.  Last year was more of an outlier without Star and with Harrison recovering and then both Milano and Edmunds getting injured in game 1.  They had to really adjust the team and I don’t think they found a rhythm until the second half - where they became a top defense again.

 

The biggest issue with being a passive defense is that good to great QBs and OCs know how to attack you and it takes a near perfect game to be successful.  A super aggressive defense can sometimes overwhelm a spot and be disruptive for large stretches - see Buffalo versus NE during the Rex years - but a good to great QB can also adjust to that.  
 

We need that change and they got that the 2 prior years - where suddenly they would slide into an amoeba front and bring pressure, whil still dropping 7-8 into coverage.  They had less practice time, different players (no Zo that was great at that), and injuries at the second level.  I think these caused them to be more passive and make a guy like Edmunds even less likely to make those impact plays (TFLs, sacks, etc.).

 

[97bills]

19 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Edmunds in the passing game can stand with any of the top LBs in the NFL. He was an absolute beast the last 6 weeks, and in 2/3 playoff games. 
 

This notion that ‘he sucks in coverage’ needs to go away. He had a rough stretch in the beginning of the season while he was injured, but that doesn’t erase 2019 or the 2nd half of the season.

Kelce says hello and edmunds is average at best. They picked up his fifth year hoping he blows up next year. 

[colin]

i think with the guys to come off the books and the new replacements we just drafted who will be dirt cheap, we have enough cap to just pay edmunds his option next year.  to not pay it would be to create a hole, not smart when you think you are in a prime window for a chip.

 

given how flippin young dude is, i really think the bills are making him earn his second contract through all 5 years.  if he shows just insane consistent play this season then yah, he gets an early extension, but if his next two years are like his last two years (some good, some regression, some pretty bad) then i bet he walks after year 5.

 

does anyone have stats on how often a 1st pick is extended to year 5, but then not resigned by his drafting team?  i think we did that w gilmore, but i think it's not that common.