Bills exercise 5th year options on QB Josh Allen & LB Tremaine Edmunds

[WideNine]

37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know.  My mental image is that Milano makes a couple of big plays a game, and Edmunds doesn't.  But you're right, playing where he plays he doesn't have nearly the opportunity to pile up stats.   

 

I think what happened with Milano was that the COVID cap lowered his potential payday and Beane realized he could keep Milano for less than he had anticipated.   Milano probably didn't want to leave unless it was for a lot more money, and the lot more money wasn't there. 

 

I thought you were going to say that Milano has to fend off less blocks from his OLB position and that may be true too.

 

One thing I have noticed is Milano's ability to shed and maneuver through blockers on sweeps and such to get to a runner and when he gets there he is pretty good about brining a player down. Edmunds seems to have a penchant for getting more tangled up in traffic.

 

I thought Kuechly's 20 TFL season was pretty impressive until I looked across the league and saw that there are plenty of linebackers that have hit that mark and more.

 

Interesting to note the PFF graded Milano as superb in coverage and compared his coverage numbers to Kuechly's, but indicated he needed to tackle better. For Edmunds they kind of mirror what most of us have been saying if we just boiled it down and that blurb about Milano and Kuechly does lean towards the way McD wants the MLB position to be played.

 

 

Prior to last season their take was:

 

"If we were ranking how good players could become, Edmunds would comfortably be in the top five.

 

He has the size. He has the explosiveness. He has truly impressive movement and change-of-direction skills for how big he is, and by all accounts, he's the kind of leader you want on your defense.

 

However, his PFF grades of 57.0 and 59.4 in his first two NFL seasons speak to the idea that it hasn't all come together yet. Edmunds has performed well in stretches, but he has yet to put it all together for an entire season.

 

Having just turned 22 years old in May, this upcoming season could very well be the one where he does just that. Edmunds will have to clean up the missed tackles and improve in coverage to rise toward where most slot him currently — a top-10 linebacker — on this list next season."

 

And then we had last season and the debate continues

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by WideNine

[Fan in Chicago]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No because people here don't  coach or scout

 

Stephon Gilmore got railroaded here and at the other bills board for years.. calling him burnt toast and overrated 

 

I had the complete opposite view and called him our most complete defensive player and a future All pro.. guess what he is 

 

And all the fans were wrong.. the Smart ones knew he was super underrated

 

 

 

 

Is your post intended as a pat on your own back or are you implying that your opinion about Edmunds is more correct than others? 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Is your post intended as a pat on your own back or are you implying that your opinion about Edmunds is more correct than others? 

No, my only point is that what fans think about a player is irrelevant

 

A lot of fans think good players are not good, and vice versa

 

I think Tremaine had a down year, but he came on strong towards the end of the year, and it be ludicrous to write him off 

 

He is a force in the middle of our defense, quarterbacks avoid throwing over him in our zone defense and he does make passing Lanes disappear

Edited May 3, 2021 by Buffalo716

[JGMcD2]

40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You seem much more certain of this than Beane makes himself out to be. 

Got info or just a "good feeling"?

Just a good feeling 

[HappyDays]

I think Edmunds is the exact kind of player the 5th year option is designed for. He hasn't proven he is worth a long term extension but he has shown very high potential. He gets 2 years to reach his ceiling. If he doesn't, we can let him walk with no cap implications. Even if he ends up not being worth the 5th year cap hit, it is worth the cost to find out for sure.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think Edmunds is the exact kind of player the 5th year option is designed for. He hasn't proven he is worth a long term extension but he has shown very high potential. He gets 2 years to reach his ceiling. If he doesn't, we can let him walk with no cap implications. Even if he ends up not being worth the 5th year cap hit, it is worth the cost to find out for sure.

So if he is mediocre at best in 2021, then you are stuck with his 12+ mil cap hit in 2022 for a team with the SB in its sights.  Sounds like a solid plan.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

24 minutes ago, BTB said:

So if he is mediocre at best in 2021, then you are stuck with his 12+ mil cap hit in 2022 for a team with the SB in its sights.  Sounds like a solid plan.

12 million cap hit for 2022 is manageable. Star, Hughes, and a few others will be off the books.

I don't think much of Edmunds as I have posted frequently but picking up the option is the right decision.  It gives Beane the most flexibility in the next few years.

[HappyDays]

54 minutes ago, BTB said:

So if he is mediocre at best in 2021, then you are stuck with his 12+ mil cap hit in 2022 for a team with the SB in its sights.  Sounds like a solid plan.

 

$12 million isn't that much. To make sure we don't let a good player become a great player on another team, it's worth it. I'm not particularly high on Edmunds, it's probably less than 50% likely that he actually realizes his potential by the end of his 5th year. Still I think the rational move is to pick up the option because the upside is so high and the downside is relatively light.

[HappyDays]

One last point I'll make though, if Edmunds shows no progression this year the Bills should look for his replacement in 2022 and just eat his 5th year cap hit. Don't give into the sunk cost fallacy. MLB might be the most important position in McDermott's scheme, so if Edmunds simply doesn't have the instincts to fill the role then replacing him needs to be a priority after this season.

Edited May 3, 2021 by HappyDays

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Which is what exactly?

This debate (I am glad to have a healthy one even if I am proven wrong some day) reminds me of the arguments made in favor of McKelvin. A guy with immense physical talent but little to no instincts to play CB. I am not saying Edmunds has zero instincts but he misses many tackles or is not in a position to make one. I understand that the front 4 was not the best in 2020 but every player needs to do the job as best as they can. if he was a consistent tackler (TFLs), then upcoming improvements such as the return of Star, more DE talent should let him excel even more.

Again, not picking up his 5th year option was NOT equivalent to a commitment to cut him after year 4. It simply would be a strategy to wait for more information. Finally, I am not saying this is a bad decision. Just that I am surprised Beane decided to commit so early.  

 

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

I have to ask why you would feel like he would have the edge from his Will position? Do you feel the scheme lends itself to freeing up Milano to make more plays than Edmunds in the middle?

 

Milano is a playmaker and that stands out when he is on the field. Get's dinged a lot, but glad we were able to retain him.

 

That move of keeping Milano (and others), where he has retained key players when they could have easily chased better coin helps keep any critique I have of the job Beane is doing from going overboard - which is the way things seem to go when whenever Bills fans take up sides on any topic and it gets emotional.

 

I think it is fine to question Beane's moves, but I am not blind to the fact that he has done more good things for this team and the roster than missteps. I hope that trend continues for many years to come.

 

 

 

 

 

I think @Shaw66 pointed this out, but it appears to me the primary request of this coaching staff for Edmunds is deep middle drops.  They play him deeper off the ball and his first steps mostly seem to be side or back.  It does not appear that they are asking him to attack the line of scrimmage the majority of the time or shoot gaps immediately.  
 

They also have him covering the middle of the field and allowing the safeties to split out into a 2 deep shell.  That forces him into a lot coverage choices and windows that a good QB can utilize.  
 

Based upon the expectations and roles of the 2 LBs - I would fully expect that Milano would be more impactful.  He is their wildcard.  He has some coverage responsibilities, but he is the flow and attack LB and therefore expected to turn people back to the middle and attack downhill.

 

Edmunds role appears to be keep things in front and make tackles and prevent deep middle passing.  He does not play a traditional downhill attacking MLB.  I agree sometimes his instincts get tricked - he attacks a hole and the RB takes a different hole.  He also gets blocked by lineman too easily.

 

In the end - I would love to see them make some changes and split Edmunds and Milano out and have a true Safety sitting in the middle, but then you really need to control the run with the DLine.

[Shaw66]

I just noticed that the Cowboys did not exercise the option on Vander Esch, same year, similar stats as Edmunds.  

 

You could spin that two ways:   Jerry Jones knows what he's doing, or he doesn't.   Depends on what you think about Jerry Jones.  

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just noticed that the Cowboys did not exercise the option on Vander Esch, same year, similar stats as Edmunds.  

 

You could spin that two ways:   Jerry Jones knows what he's doing, or he doesn't.   Depends on what you think about Jerry Jones.  

To be fair, Vander Esch was an injury risk coming out of college. After a good (and healthy) rookie season, he has been limited to 19 games in the last two seasons, and has been diagnosed with spinal stenosis, which they think might cause long term, recurrent neck and back trouble.

I think the drafting of Micah Parsons and Jabril Cox effectively closed the book on the Vander Esch era in Dallas.

Anyway, back to Edmunds. I'm sure others have already pointed this out, but: Four different players that the Bills drafted in the 2021 draft are already older than Tremaine Edmunds. Those who say he is what he is and can't improve ought to explain why 20, 21, and 22 year old players are still improving through college, but there's no chance that Edmunds can get any better. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I'll help you out, he completely whiffed a tackle on Jamison Crowder which resulted in a 60 plus yard TD. 

 

Isn't it obvious a player isn't all that good when a good chunk of the fan base is questioning that player's performance? Josh Allen's a perfect example. He had plenty of question makes entering last season. Now, just about every Bills fan agrees the guy is an elite QB. 

 

When the age excuse instead of the players actual play on the field continues to be mentioned by his biggest supporters game after game, month after month and now year after year you have to be at least a little skeptical of that player. 

No, it isn’t obvious that a player isn’t good because a good chunk of the fan base is questioning his performance.

 

The most criticized player I can remember was Gilmore.  Fans wanted him benched or cut....there were threads every week.  
2 years after he leaves the Bills, he wins MVP.  He was always good with the Bills but a large chunk of the fan base thought he sucked.

 

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just noticed that the Cowboys did not exercise the option on Vander Esch, same year, similar stats as Edmunds.  

 

You could spin that two ways:   Jerry Jones knows what he's doing, or he doesn't.   Depends on what you think about Jerry Jones.  

I believe its a neck injury issue with Vader Esch.  I think his play has been fine when on the field and healty.

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

No because people here don't  coach or scout

 

Stephon Gilmore got railroaded here and at the other bills board for years.. calling him burnt toast and overrated 

 

I had the complete opposite view and called him our most complete defensive player and a future All pro.. guess what he is 

 

And most the fans were wrong.. 

While some knew he was super underrated

 

 

 

 

I said this too!

 

I was one of Gilmore’s defenders on the old BBMB.  

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I believe its a neck injury issue with Vader Esch.  I think his play has been fine when on the field and healty.

Thanks to you and Logic.   I knew he had had injury problems, but I didn't know that they were so clearly career-limiting.  Too bad for him.  He was a player.  

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

No, it isn’t obvious that a player isn’t good because a good chunk of the fan base is questioning his performance.

 

The most criticized player I can remember was Gilmore.  Fans wanted him benched or cut....there were threads every week.  
2 years after he leaves the Bills, he wins MVP.  He was always good with the Bills but a large chunk of the fan base thought he sucked.

 

I believe its a neck injury issue with Vader Esch.  I think his play has been fine when on the field and healty.

I said this too!

 

I was one of Gilmore’s defenders on the old BBMB.  

You want a fortune cookie?! 😏

Edited May 4, 2021 by Buffalo716

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

I thought you were going to say that Milano has to fend off less blocks from his OLB position and that may be true too.

 

One thing I have noticed is Milano's ability to shed and maneuver through blockers on sweeps and such to get to a runner and when he gets there he is pretty good about brining a player down. Edmunds seems to have a penchant for getting more tangled up in traffic.

 

I thought Kuechly's 20 TFL season was pretty impressive until I looked across the league and saw that there are plenty of linebackers that have hit that mark and more.

 

Interesting to note the PFF graded Milano as superb in coverage and compared his coverage numbers to Kuechly's, but indicated he needed to tackle better. For Edmunds they kind of mirror what most of us have been saying if we just boiled it down and that blurb about Milano and Kuechly does lean towards the way McD wants the MLB position to be played.

 

 

Prior to last season their take was:

 

"If we were ranking how good players could become, Edmunds would comfortably be in the top five.

 

He has the size. He has the explosiveness. He has truly impressive movement and change-of-direction skills for how big he is, and by all accounts, he's the kind of leader you want on your defense.

 

However, his PFF grades of 57.0 and 59.4 in his first two NFL seasons speak to the idea that it hasn't all come together yet. Edmunds has performed well in stretches, but he has yet to put it all together for an entire season.

 

Having just turned 22 years old in May, this upcoming season could very well be the one where he does just that. Edmunds will have to clean up the missed tackles and improve in coverage to rise toward where most slot him currently — a top-10 linebacker — on this list next season."

 

And then we had last season and the debate continues

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way you describe Milano is why I wanted JOK with our first pick...along with his coverage skills, I thought his explosiveness would add extra playmaking ability to stopping the run, and running down mobile QB’s...damn, I’m still sour we didn’t take him- could have been our Troy Polamalu...

[Doc Brown]

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just noticed that the Cowboys did not exercise the option on Vander Esch, same year, similar stats as Edmunds.  

 

You could spin that two ways:   Jerry Jones knows what he's doing, or he doesn't.   Depends on what you think about Jerry Jones.  

Main difference is pry the injuries.  Vander Esch missed 13 games in the last to years.  They drafted LB's though in Parsons and Cox. 

[BarleyNY]

37 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

The way you describe Milano is why I wanted JOK with our first pick...along with his coverage skills, I thought his explosiveness would add extra playmaking ability to stopping the run, and running down mobile QB’s...damn, I’m still sour we didn’t take him- could have been our Troy Polamalu...

The PFF guys said the best comp for JOK was that he was like a “faster Milano” and then he said “and I like Milano”.  I was surprised JOK made it past the Bills too.  Maybe if they wouldn’t have resigned Milano they would’ve taken him. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by BarleyNY

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

No because people here don't  coach or scout

 

Stephon Gilmore got railroaded here and at the other bills board for years.. calling him burnt toast and overrated 

 

I had the complete opposite view and called him our most complete defensive player and a future All pro.. guess what he is 

 

And most the fans were wrong.. 

While some knew he was super underrated

 

 

 

 

 

 

I knew Gilmore was underrated.   Not franchise tagging him was a stupid decision.   Even if he didn't want to stay, anyone who knew how good he was knew he would have netted a high draft pick.   Maybe a #1.

 

I know Edmunds has been a disappointment.

 

Not the same situation.

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Doesn't guarantee anything for Edmunds.  In fact it does the opposite. It buys them an extra year to make a decision on whether he is the MLB of the future.

 

It FULLY guarantees his 2022 salary.   Right now.   Regardless of quality of play or injury.......they can't cut him and save that money at any point now.  That's the way the 5th year option works now.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I knew Gilmore was underrated.   Not franchise tagging him was a stupid decision.   Even if he didn't want to stay, anyone who knew how good he was knew he would have netted a high draft pick.   Maybe a #1.

 

I know Edmunds has been a disappointment.

 

Not the same situation.

It's similar because Edmunds gets a lot of criticism and he's not a whipping boy

 

He's a young solid football player, who's inconsistent.. and the space he takes up in zone coverage is massive to McDermotts scheme 

 

Even if he's not the greatest in man-to-man coverage