1. Chiefs 2. Browns 3. Bills

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

15 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Who is saying "the Browns can NEVER be better than the Bills because they have Josh Allen?"

 

Really?

 

Have you read this thread????

 

Every third post here is saying it.  

 

It's a widely held opinion here and it's ridiculous.

I’ve read the thread.  You are acting a little over dramatic with your responses.  People feel that Allen makes up for a slight disadvantage in other areas of the roster.  It’s as simple as that. Do you feel that the Browns have a vastly superior roster? 

Edited May 2, 2021 by chknwing334

[chongli]

2 hours ago, mushypeaches said:

I'll be worried about the Browns when they find a better QB than Faker Mayfield

 

Faker Playfield!

[Jauronimo]

Cleveland needs to worry about going 0.500 in the AFC North.  Cleveland last finished better than 3rd in the AFC North in 2002.  Cleveland has not won their division since 1989.  

 

In conclusion, shut up about the Browns. SHUT UP ABOUT THE F@#$ING BROWNS!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Bills of Boston said:

Mahomes also went out pretty early that game. Obv Browns are a very good team and a real threat etc 

 

Mahomes went out late in the 3Q and played 71% of the snaps in that game.

The score was KC 22-Browns 10 after the drive where he left the game.

 

 

 

 

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

No. Every third post is saying the difference between Allen and Mayfield is such that the Browns supposed superior roster doesn’t make up the deficit. What’s ridiculous is saying the Browns are a better team and acting confused about pushback.

 

I expected nothing but pushback on my opinion that I knew would be very unpopular here.  I've been contributing to this forum for years.  I know exactly how any post that says anything critical of the Bills goes over on TBD.  Take two minutes, hit my profile, and read my posts.   I'm as big of a Bills' fan as anyone here, but I also try to be objective about things.

 

There must be twenty posts on this thread that say as long as we have Allen the Bills are better.

 

The position you state that the talent on the Browns roster in total is not enough to overcome the difference between Allen and Baker is a reasonable position to hold and is the crux of this entire thread.  I don't agree with that position, but I understand how someone could hold that position.  I explained in the OP why I believe what I believe. 

 

Now if people want to convince me I'm wrong with a reasoned argument, not simply "my quarterback can beat up your quarterback" or starting in with the crystal ball and lotto numbers BS, please have at it.  

 

 

[RobbRiddick]

A brave post! But one I agree with. Browns are a damn good team and if Mayfield continues to improve will be really tough to beat. They've also got the Steelers monkey off their backs and I'd be surprised if they didn't win that division with ease

[HOUSE]

I enjoyed this story

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, RobbRiddick said:

A brave post! But one I agree with. Browns are a damn good team and if Mayfield continues to improve will be really tough to beat. They've also got the Steelers monkey off their backs and I'd be surprised if they didn't win that division with ease

They have beaten the Ravens 4 times in the last 11 years.  They have beaten the Steelers 4 times in the last 11 years but they did tie them once.  I am not convinced they have gotten any monkeys off their backs.  

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, chknwing334 said:

 

I think you are underestimating the advantage of having Josh Allen at the helm vs Baker. 

Right.

 

And underestimating the coaching.  

 

Obviously, no one knows something like this for a certainty, but I think the Bills are one of a few teams with the potential to be the best team in the conference.  KC, Cleveland, Titans.  

 

I like where we are. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

34 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Your arguments have convinced me.  The Browns can never be better than the Bills because we have Josh Allen and they have Baker Mayfield.

 

Nothing else matters.

 

I'm not even sure why the other 52 guys are on the roster to be honest.

 

Now please excuse me while I get back to my crystal ball and lotto numbers.

 

 

Dude, you made a great OP, even if I do feel you missed significant losses to the Chiefs roster - but this kind of response does not do you credit.

That's not what people arguing with you are saying.  They're saying they understand there's a perceived superiority of the Browns roster overall, but their perceived superiority of Allen over Mayfield at QB overcomes it.  That's way different than saying "the Browns can never be better than the Bills because blah blah"

 

Do you think there's really a legit argument that a great QB covers up for a lot of gaps, or that Allen was a better QB than Mayfield last season?

 

Mayfield was a bit bipolar last year. He had games where he looked brilliant, like their week 12 game against Tenn, the week 13 loss to Bal, and the last two games against Pitt (reg season and playoffs).  And he had games where, frankly, if he'd have been Allen Bills fans woulda been calling for the hook.  Some of them they won, but arguably won in spite of him. 

 

Now maybe he'll take a step, no reason he can't.  My question about Mayfield is does he have the drive to win that will let him sustain focus and prepare hard, week in week out?  Or does he only get it up when there's enough dissing of him in the press/SM to motivate him? 

 

And we all hope Allen will sustain or improve on last year, but that's also not a given.

 

Just as a better roster on paper isn't always a better roster on Sunday.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I expected nothing but pushback on my opinion that I knew would be very unpopular here.  I've been contributing to this forum for years.  I know exactly how any post that says anything critical of the Bills goes over on TBD.  Take two minutes, hit my profile, and read my posts.   I'm as big of a Bills' fan as anyone here, but I also try to be objective about things.

 

There must be twenty posts on this thread that say as long as we have Allen the Bills are better.

 

The position you state that the talent on the Browns roster in total is not enough to overcome the difference between Allen and Baker is a reasonable position to hold and is the crux of this entire thread.  I don't agree with that position, but I understand how someone could hold that position.  I explained in the OP why I believe what I believe. 

 

Now if people want to convince me I'm wrong with a reasoned argument, not simply "my quarterback can beat up your quarterback" or starting in with the crystal ball and lotto numbers BS, please have at it.  

 

 

With no equal mention of our draft it reads very much like ‘the Browns drafted guys I wanted so they’ll be better than us’

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I expected nothing but pushback on my opinion that I knew would be very unpopular here.  I've been contributing to this forum for years.  I know exactly how any post that says anything critical of the Bills goes over on TBD.  Take two minutes, hit my profile, and read my posts.   I'm as big of a Bills' fan as anyone here, but I also try to be objective about things.

 

There must be twenty posts on this thread that say as long as we have Allen the Bills are better.

 

The position you state that the talent on the Browns roster in total is not enough to overcome the difference between Allen and Baker is a reasonable position to hold and is the crux of this entire thread.  I don't agree with that position, but I understand how someone could hold that position.  I explained in the OP why I believe what I believe. 

 

Now if people want to convince me I'm wrong with a reasoned argument, not simply "my quarterback can beat up your quarterback" or starting in with the crystal ball and lotto numbers BS, please have at it.  

 

 

Well, look.  I enjoy your posts and rarely argue with you.  But the fact is that "my quarterback is better than your quarterback" is a valid and sufficient argument to support the position that your wrong.   It's no less valid than the "the total talent on my team is better than the total talent on your team."  

 

When the argument comes down to those points, there's nothing left to talk about - it's just a difference of opinion.  

 

As I said in my post, I also thing the Bills have a coaching edge, because I don't think anyone is as thorough and as detailed as McDermott and his crew.   One reason I think the Bills did so well last year is that by being hyper-organized, McDermott was much better able to adjust to COVID rules on the fly.  He accepts every challenge and masters it.  

 

I've been saying for two years now that fans should enjoy the ride.   The Bills have a truly outstanding combination of owners, GM, head coach, and quarterback.   That's what makes me think the Bills can be the best in the conference every year, starting this year. 

[DCbillsfan]

The Chiefs and Browns have had strong off-season additions.  No denying that.  The Bills re-signed 3 main guys and kept the roster intact for the most part.  I believe Bills are banking on their young guys improving and guys staying healthy this year.  Looking forward to seeing Allen play this year.  I believe there's still growth in his game.

[SirAndrew]

Is getting OBJ back actually a good thing for the Browns ? 

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

The Chiefs entered the off season after getting man handled in the Super Bowl because their O-line had fallen apart.  They blew up their O-line and decided to rebuild.  On paper at least, they look to have improved the line.  They signed Joe Thuney to a 5 year $80 million contract and he will slide into the left guard position.  They then signed Kyle Long to a one year deal to step into the right guard position.  They resigned Mike Remmers to play right tackle and then traded with the Ravens for Orlando Brown to step in as their left tackle.  They signed Austin Blythe from the Rams to play center, and then drafted the 2nd ranked center, Creed Humphrey, to push Blythe and develop into their future center.  The only free agent they lost of any consequence was Sammy Watkins which should not slow them down much.

 

I think on the whole the O-line is upgraded and they kept the rest of the band together.  I don't see any reasonable argument to say the Chiefs shouldn't remain the #1 seed in the AFC heading into the 2021 season.

 

The Browns will leap frog us this season and be the primary threat to the Chiefs.   If you look at the playoffs last year, the Browns came within a fumbled football out of the endzone from beating the Chiefs.  The Bills by comparison didn't even make a game of it against the Chiefs.  The Browns' roster seems to match up better against the Chiefs, and that was before the Browns very impressive off season.

 

The defense was the weak side of the ball last season and the Browns attacked this off season with that in mind.  They snagged John Johnson the best free agent safety on the market to address a huge weakness and also added CB Troy Hill who will be an instant upgrade.  They brought in Clowney to stack opposite Miles Garrett on the D-line.  They then drafted CB Greg Newsome and LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah who should both start this season.  The Browns bring back their offense intact and Mayfield will have the benefit of playing in the same offense for the first time in his career.  OBJ will also be back this season.

 

The Bills did a great job of resigning their key free agents this year and also upgraded the backup QB position.  They brought in Sanders to replace Brown which could be an up grade and added Hollister to the TE room.  We all hope that having Star back will have a ripple effect on the D-line and result in better play across the entire line and allow our LB play to improve as well.  The entire team will benefit from another year of coaching and scheme stability and hopefully some of our young players like Oliver and Edmunds will take a step forward this year.

 

 

Overview   A lot is made of the Bills retaining their own talent, and I agree that Beane did a great job of maintaining a roster that made it to the AFC Championship game, but the uncomfortable truth is that the Chiefs maintained their roster too AND improved their O-Line.   The Browns also avoided any key free agency loses AND improved their defensive secondary and brought in Clowney on the D-line.  The Browns and Chiefs will also benefit from another year of coaching and scheme stability just like the Bills.

 

The off season isn't over yet, but the free agency period is winding down and the Draft is over.  Baring injuries, any changes to the rosters of the Chiefs, Browns, and Bills before opening weekend will likely just be on the margins before opening weekend.  When Andy Reid looks out across the AFC, I think he is probably more worried about what is going on in Cleveland than what is going on in Buffalo.  I think the Browns have improved enough this off season to move past us and become the primary threat to the Chiefs this year. 

 

At this point I'd rank the AFC;    1. Chiefs  2. Browns  3. Bills

I stopped reading once this character tried using the transitive property to prove his logic.  The fact that one team lost by fewer points to the same thing, hardly means they are the better team.  Faulty logic

[Locomark]

2 hours ago, chknwing334 said:

The Browns came in 3rd in their own division last year.  (I know they were only one game behind the Steelers)

 

I think you are underestimating the advantage of having Josh Allen at the helm vs Baker. 

From a Browns vs us standpoint, this is the key. QB advantage for us over the Browns is immense. So is play calling.  Plus nowhere so you mention the large upgrade of Sanders over Brown and yes it is a large upgrade. Brown was not really a factor after the first 3 weeks. I think our off-season is far from over. I fully expect us to to sign Sherman at CB or another well known veteran. It’s the only logical reason we did very little to upgrade the position. 
From a Chiefs standpoint I feel we have lost another half step to them. We truly need our 2 defensive ends to contribute mightily. I hope we don’t play the Chiefs until late in the year so we can have our full blown pass rushers by then.... we have to beat them in the regular season game if we want any chance at that bye. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Locomark

[SCBills]

29 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I expected nothing but pushback on my opinion that I knew would be very unpopular here.  I've been contributing to this forum for years.  I know exactly how any post that says anything critical of the Bills goes over on TBD.  Take two minutes, hit my profile, and read my posts.   I'm as big of a Bills' fan as anyone here, but I also try to be objective about things.

 

There must be twenty posts on this thread that say as long as we have Allen the Bills are better.

 

The position you state that the talent on the Browns roster in total is not enough to overcome the difference between Allen and Baker is a reasonable position to hold and is the crux of this entire thread.  I don't agree with that position, but I understand how someone could hold that position.  I explained in the OP why I believe what I believe. 

 

Now if people want to convince me I'm wrong with a reasoned argument, not simply "my quarterback can beat up your quarterback" or starting in with the crystal ball and lotto numbers BS, please have at it.  

 

 

I don’t think you’re wildly off-base.  
 

Most unbiased analysts would say Cleveland might have the most proven talent in the league, along with Tampa Bay & Kansas City.  
 

Buffalo is in the tier after those teams, with the POTENTIAL to get there.   Again, strictly speaking of individual talent.  
 

Buffalo might be the deepest team in the league in the trenches after this past weekend. 
 

In terms of proven, high end talent though...

 

Josh Allen is generally regarded as a Top 5 QB. 

 

Dawkins, Williams and Morse are regarded as good Offensive Linemen.  
 

Diggs and Beasley are difference maker WR’s.  
 

Poyer, Milano and White are considered high end talent in their prime. 
 

Everything else is potential.... Revamped running game/scheme, Knox, revamped DL, Edmunds.  
 

If Star, Oliver, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa etc all hit, this Defensive Line could be menacing, but right now the DL is just a unit with massive potential, really the entire Defense in general.  
 

Edited May 2, 2021 by SCBills

[Figster]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, look.  I enjoy your posts and rarely argue with you.  But the fact is that "my quarterback is better than your quarterback" is a valid and sufficient argument to support the position that your wrong.   It's no less valid than the "the total talent on my team is better than the total talent on your team."  

 

When the argument comes down to those points, there's nothing left to talk about - it's just a difference of opinion.  

 

As I said in my post, I also thing the Bills have a coaching edge, because I don't think anyone is as thorough and as detailed as McDermott and his crew.   One reason I think the Bills did so well last year is that by being hyper-organized, McDermott was much better able to adjust to COVID rules on the fly.  He accepts every challenge and masters it.  

 

I've been saying for two years now that fans should enjoy the ride.   The Bills have a truly outstanding combination of owners, GM, head coach, and quarterback.   That's what makes me think the Bills can be the best in the conference every year, starting this year. 

I like this argument because Josh Allens ceiling appears very high. From a talent level overall I think Chubb helps the Browns stay close to Buffalo, probably close enough for debate.

 

 An argument you will never win here, lol 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Figster

[DQW87]

Have to say I agree with the OP here as hard as it is to.  The Chiefs have been better than us for a while now. Not a lot, but enough.   They can be beat, but it takes a perfect game to do it.  The Browns are much improved as well, and did almost beat the Chiefs last year.  Where we have the big advantage is consistamcy.  Having the same coaches and same systems and most the same players does pay off when you are playing teams with big turnovers in their rosters. That's why I still wouldn't be surprised to see the Patriots struggle again.  You can't replace half your roster and expect to play great as a team. As others have said, I'll take Josh over Baker and Cam any day as well.  So as hard as it is to say we look like we are 3rd on paper, the game is played on the field.  All it takes is a key addition, or a key injury, and to be playing your best ball right when you need to be.  3rd on paperin the AFC is way better than where we were years ago.  We could easily win it all if things work out our way for once.

[Billl]

34 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Kudos for putting this together, but you lost me right there with the bolded.

 

The Chiefs lost starting DE Tanoh Kpassagnon to NO, starting OLB Damien Wilson to Jacksonville, and starting CB Brashad Breeland is still unsigned as a FA.  Defensive end Alex Okafor saw significant playing time (40-50% of the snaps) and is also an unsigned FA at this point.

 

When they lose or have unsigned 3-4 key defensive contributors who saw a lot of snaps and you come out with "the only free agent they lost of any consequence was Watkins", that begs the question just what do you consider "of any consequence"? 

 

Now it may be that just like OL, they made sufficient FA or draft moves on D to backfill, or have understudies who looked good and are ready to step in, but at least tell us what those were and why they're just as good. 

 

And frankly, it wasn't just the KC OL that was a problem for them in the Superbowl.  Their D gave up 145 yds on the ground and gave TB a TOP edge not to mention 3 TD passing.

 

KC is the team to beat in the AFC until proven otherwise, no argument there.  I don't know as much about the Brownies, but frankly, the significant gaps in your KC analysis make me question how deep and thoughtful your analysis of the Brownies may be.

 

 

He’s correct.  Every player you listed is a JAG, and Watkins was always hurt.  The only one I’d like to have back is Breeland, and there’s a pretty good chance he does. There’s a reason Kpass signed for barely over the league minimum and the others haven’t been picked up.  The entirety of their value was their cheap price tags.