Rochesterfan Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: The Bills tackles are better? I am not sure I agree with that. I think the OL is clear advantage Cleveland. Only Dawkins of our 5 starts for them IMO. Equally I think the Bills linebacker group is, as of now, way ahead. The Browns two best linebackers might be the two guys they drafted last weekend who I think it is expecting a lot of for them to our perform Edmunds and Milano as rookies. That could be - I think Williams versus Conklin is a wash - Conklin is a bigger name, but struggled early. He got better when they went to a run first game. As I said - for each team the OLine is a better fit to do what they want. Even if you go with Cleveland having a better OLine and I can live with that - I think overall the talent is a wash. I just can not get behind all of the statements telling me Cleveland has far superior talent to the Bills and I can not get behind them clearly being the most talented team in the AFC. Cleveland is a very talented team and should make the playoffs and be one of 3-4 teams that need to be reckoned with, but if I am ranking AFC teams at this moment it goes: Top Tier 1) KC 2) Buff 3) Cleve Next Tier Baltimore, Indy, LA 2 1
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 Browns just built for January Ball. More than Buffalo. One dimensional teams (no matter how good in the nice weather) just isn’t built for January Ball.
Bob in STL Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 Hard to gauge the Browns v Bills on based only on their games against KC. Long season, injuries, depth, and schedule will all factor into a NEW season. Allen and Mayfield are the keys.
Bob in STL Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 6 hours ago, Arm of Harm said: Are the Bills a better regular season team than the Browns? I believe they are, especially when I think back to late season, when they were cutting through their opponents like a hot knife through butter. But when the postseason came, the Bills struggled to beat the Colts. The Colts wouldn't have been in the playoffs at all, had the Bills not beaten the Dolphins in week 17. Also, the Colts almost lost to lowly Jacksonville, in what (for them) was a must win-game. Based on how much better the Bills were than the Colts during the regular season, I expected them to win convincingly. But that's not what happened. The next week the Bills played the Ravens. Sure you could point to the final score and call it a convincing win. But the pick 6 was a 14 point swing. Had that one play been a TD instead of the pick 6, the game would have been either team's to win. So, once again a failure to beat a postseason opponent convincingly. Then there was the debacle against the Chiefs. For whatever reason, the Bills seemingly played at a lower level in the postseason than they had in the regular season. Until we get that problem fixed, we're in no position to look down our noses at a team like the Browns. Cleveland and Buffalo will win enough games to make it to the postseason, so it's the quality of postseason play which really matters. Agree with your last sentence. Everything else is looking for excuses to discount the play of the Bills, or the opponents that they beat. The ONLY thing that matters is the W at the end of the game. You don’t get anything extra for “wining convincingly”.
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said: Browns just built for January Ball. More than Buffalo. One dimensional teams (no matter how good in the nice weather) just isn’t built for January Ball. Of the 4 conference championship contenders, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th leading passers were playing. In the Super Bowl, the 2nd and 3rd leading passers were playing. Being able to pass the ball at a high level is much more important than being able to run it. At any time in the season. The ravens and browns were both top 3 in rushing yards and “built for January football” got beat in the playoffs by passing teams. Edited May 5, 2021 by chknwing334 2
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 minute ago, chknwing334 said: Of the 4 conference championship contenders, the 1st, 2nd, and 4th leading passers were playing. In the Super Bowl, the 1st and 2nd leading passers were playing. Being able to pass the ball at a high level is much more important than being able to run it. At any time in the season. Things need to change if Bills want to somehow carry that passing attack into January. When the weather, the teams and Refs don’t play the same way they do on nice sunny day in early October. The tiny Bills WRs are healthy in October. The Refs throw that yellow early and often. Allen’s rockets go unimpeded through fresh calm air. But come the cold harsh realities of January...The tiny Bills WR are all limping on broken bodies...because based on their volume, you can’t honestly expect the tiny BILLS WR to stay healthy through 17-19 games. the Refs decide to pocket the yellow. Because no ref crew wants to be the story on Monday...leaving the opposing team more free reign to toss the tiny and injured Bills WRs around. Colts Game - 2/9 on 3rd Down Ravens Game - 4/13 on 3rd Down Chiefs Game - 5/14 on 3rd Down Bills were 4th in the regular season on 3rd down. Until they got to January Ball. when the rules changed...the physicality changed and the one dimensional offense was exposed. (Thank goodness for retiring Rivers and Lamar). overall my point is have have a choice over which team can win multiple ways I’m gonna take the Browns in January over the bills right now until the bills can show me they can stay healthy and more diverse in January. 1
Patrick Duffy Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said: That could be - I think Williams versus Conklin is a wash - Conklin is a bigger name, but struggled early. He got better when they went to a run first game. As I said - for each team the OLine is a better fit to do what they want. Even if you go with Cleveland having a better OLine and I can live with that - I think overall the talent is a wash. I just can not get behind all of the statements telling me Cleveland has far superior talent to the Bills and I can not get behind them clearly being the most talented team in the AFC. Cleveland is a very talented team and should make the playoffs and be one of 3-4 teams that need to be reckoned with, but if I am ranking AFC teams at this moment it goes: Top Tier 1) KC 2) Buff 3) Cleve Next Tier Baltimore, Indy, LA I agree. They both are pretty leveled out. That's where Allen comes in though and I think gives Bills the edge.
SCBills Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: I keep hearing how they are more talented across the board and I just don’t see it. They have some bigger names, but I am not sure they are better. QB - Bills better by a ton RB - Cleveland Better by a ton OLine - Bills Tackles are better, Cleveland better inside - Bills are a better pass group and Browns better run blocking group. - wash WRs - Bills more talented TEs - Cleveland most likely - they have a higher user rate DLine - Cleveland by a ton - although this group is a lot of name other than Garrett the rest have done little in years LB - Bills by a small margin - I think Milano is the best of the bunch but could go draw DBs - I would give it to the Bills I think White is better than Ward and the Bills safeties are a hair better. Overall I think the talent level is very close and the Bills are better than the Browns off the ball (QB, LB, DB, and WR), while the DLine, TEs, and RBs are clearly an advantage for Cleveland. I also think the Bills have a coaching advantage. I think in the modern NFL - high quantity passing attack - the Bills offense is set to be far superior and the Browns defensive scheme makes them better and they will rank better because the offense is a running clock control offense. I just do not see significantly more talent across the roster - I see some positions that are more talented, but those are the same groups that were more talented last year. Not sure Clowney is better than Vernon whom he replaced. Clowney has done little and been injured even more. QB - Bills RB - Cleveland OL - Cleveland (Ours may be Top 10ish, but there's could be Top 5) WR's - Bills TE's - Cleveland DL - Cleveland (Myles Garret factor, while our DL is deep - mainly with potential) LB - Bills DB's - Bills Main issue for me is that on Defense, Myles Garrett is a proven game changer, which is something we don't have. On Offense, they are balanced, with a dominant run game that opens up the passing game for Baker with proven talent at WR and TE. If some of our potential guys like Oliver, Edmunds, Ford, Moss, Knox etc., make the jump - well then, the talent gap (outside of QB) closes pretty quick.
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said: Things need to change if Bills want to somehow carry that passing attack into January. When the weather, the teams and Refs don’t play the same way they do on nice sunny day in early October. The tiny Bills WRs are healthy in October. The Refs throw that yellow early and often. Allen’s rockets go unimpeded through fresh calm air. But come the cold harsh realities of January...The tiny Bills WR are all limping on broken bodies...because based on their volume, you can’t honestly expect the tiny BILLS WR to stay healthy through 17-19 games. the Refs decide to pocket the yellow. Because no ref crew wants to be the story on Monday...leaving the opposing team more free reign to toss the tiny and injured Bills WRs around. Colts Game - 2/9 on 3rd Down Ravens Game - 4/13 on 3rd Down Chiefs Game - 5/14 on 3rd Down Bills were 4th in the regular season on 3rd down. Until they got to January Ball. when the rules changed...the physicality changed and the one dimensional offense was exposed. (Thank goodness for retiring Rivers and Lamar). overall my point is have have a choice over which team can win multiple ways I’m gonna take the Browns in January over the bills right now until the bills can show me they can stay healthy and more diverse in January. That was not your original point though. If you are trying to predict injuries and how the refs will call a game, you are talking about something completely different than having a one dimensional passing offense. (The refs didn't call the superbowl the same way that they called the AFC championship game when it came to PI, so I don't think you can attribute that to January football.) The Bucs had the 5th fewest rushing yards in 2020. They had the 4th most passing yards. One of the most one dimensional teams in the league won the superbowl. This is a passing league now and in the vast majority of cases, you need a dominant QB and passing game to win a championship. I would love to see the Bills improve their running game, but I think it is overvalued by many fans. Edited May 5, 2021 by chknwing334
GunnerBill Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, SCBills said: QB - Bills RB - Cleveland OL - Cleveland (Ours may be Top 10ish, but there's could be Top 5) WR's - Bills TE's - Cleveland DL - Cleveland (Myles Garret factor, while our DL is deep - mainly with potential) LB - Bills DB's - Bills Main issue for me is that on Defense, Myles Garrett is a proven game changer, which is something we don't have. On Offense, they are balanced, with a dominant run game that opens up the passing game for Baker with proven talent at WR and TE. If some of our potential guys like Oliver, Edmunds, Ford, Moss, Knox etc., make the jump - well then, the talent gap (outside of QB) closes pretty quick. I broadly agree with this - although I expect Cleveland's DBs to be much closer in 2021. I think the Bills are still better, Cleveland does look to have closed the gap. I think there is an argument however that they are better built to play KC. Pass rush and run game are the two ingredients that seem to cause Kansas City a problem and in both of those areas Cleveland have the edge on us. I wouldn't mind Cleveland dealing with KC in the divisional round and then losing in Buffalo in the AFCCG 1
NewEra Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: That could be - I think Williams versus Conklin is a wash - Conklin is a bigger name, but struggled early. He got better when they went to a run first game. As I said - for each team the OLine is a better fit to do what they want. Even if you go with Cleveland having a better OLine and I can live with that - I think overall the talent is a wash. I just can not get behind all of the statements telling me Cleveland has far superior talent to the Bills and I can not get behind them clearly being the most talented team in the AFC. Cleveland is a very talented team and should make the playoffs and be one of 3-4 teams that need to be reckoned with, but if I am ranking AFC teams at this moment it goes: Top Tier 1) KC 2) Buff 3) Cleve Next Tier Baltimore, Indy, LA You keep saying “far superior talent”. I don’t really see much of that in this thread at all. I haven’t seen one person say that tbh. I see “more talent across the board” and “a better overall roster” type statements. I don’t see much “far superior”. Jmo, looks like an overreaction. and the browns TEs are definitely better, not just targeted more often. That isn’t really even a conversation at this point. I agree with everything else you have said. 20 minutes ago, chknwing334 said: That was not your original point though. If you are trying to predict injuries and how the refs will call a game, you are talking about something completely different than having a one dimensional passing offense. (The refs didn't call the superbowl the same way that they called the AFC championship game when it came to PI, so I don't think you can attribute that to January football.) The Bucs had the 5th fewest rushing yards in 2020. They had the 4th most passing yards. One of the most one dimensional teams in the league won the superbowl. This is a passing league now and in the vast majority of cases, you need a dominant QB and passing game to win a championship. I would love to see the Bills improve their running game, but I think it is overvalued by many fans. Until the super bowl, where they were able to run 28 times for 150 yard 5.3 ypc. the Bucs had an OL that was capable of opening holes in the run game.... Arians just didn’t want to run. Edited May 5, 2021 by NewEra 1
SCBills Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, chknwing334 said: That was not your original point though. If you are trying to predict injuries and how the refs will call a game, you are talking about something completely different than having a one dimensional passing offense. (The refs didn't call the superbowl the same way that they called the AFC championship game when it came to PI, so I don't think you can attribute that to January football.) The Bucs had the 5th fewest rushing yards in 2020. They had the 4th most passing yards. One of the most one dimensional teams in the league won the superbowl. This is a passing league now and in the vast majority of cases, you need a dominant QB and passing game to win a championship. I would love to see the Bills improve their running game, but I think it is overvalued by many fans. I think we need to be able to run well, when we run, but I don't think we need to be running all that often. The main issue for us in the KC game was that we couldn't go with a change-up (run game) or curve (Tight End Play) when KC took away our fastball (WR's). That game, in retrospect, was a disaster, given we now know that all 4 of our WR's were significantly injured and the refs allowed them to play physical the entire way. That, combined with our inability to go anywhere else with the ball, allowed them to tee off on Josh Allen in the pass game AND close off his escape routes. Can't rely on refs to officiate one way or the other, so we need to be adaptable, and I do think Sanders over Brown was in direct response to this game. Let's hope the run game follows and we see it improve this year. Edited May 5, 2021 by SCBills 1
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, chknwing334 said: That was not your original point though. If you are trying to predict injuries and how the refs will call a game, you are talking about something completely different than having a one dimensional passing offense. (The refs didn't call the superbowl the same way that they called the AFC championship game when it came to PI, so I don't think you can attribute that to January football.) The Bucs had the 5th fewest rushing yards in 2020. They had the 4th most passing yards. One of the most one dimensional teams in the league won the superbowl. This is a passing league now and in the vast majority of cases, you need a dominant QB and passing game to win a championship. I would love to see the Bills improve their running game, but I think it is overvalued by many fans. Well that’s true. The Super Bowl is in February. 😉 I love the league is a passing league. But if I had to pick who I thought was better suited for the dirty muck of playoff football in January...when rules and climate def change...I think the Browns are because their offense can work both from the Run and the Pass. I think that defenses know...they anticipate Refs are going to let them play more in the playoffs...so that in some ways neutralizes a passing games attack. Ravens brought the pain and so did KC against Buffalo. And once the passing game was neutered, Buffalo really had no more bullets in the Gun to try to win any other way. I just think Browns are better suited to mix it up or switch between run and pass should the situation call for it. final point...I would say Buffalo is a Better Team too. Better Regular Season team. I just happen to think Browns built better for single game elimination in bad weather when rules loosen up. 1
BarleyNY Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, SCBills said: QB - Bills RB - Cleveland OL - Cleveland (Ours may be Top 10ish, but there's could be Top 5) WR's - Bills TE's - Cleveland DL - Cleveland (Myles Garret factor, while our DL is deep - mainly with potential) LB - Bills DB's - Bills Main issue for me is that on Defense, Myles Garrett is a proven game changer, which is something we don't have. On Offense, they are balanced, with a dominant run game that opens up the passing game for Baker with proven talent at WR and TE. If some of our potential guys like Oliver, Edmunds, Ford, Moss, Knox etc., make the jump - well then, the talent gap (outside of QB) closes pretty quick. DBs should go to the Browns. White is the best on either team and Wallace is solid, but it really drops off at CB after that. Taron is serviceable and Jackson is a still very unproven late round pick - though he did show some promise. Poyer and Hyde are very good safeties but all that we have behind them is Neal. The Browns are looking like they could be stacked there. Ward and Harrison are very good DBs, first round pick Greg Newsome II is an excellent (if unproven) CB prospect, they picked up two FAs in Hill and Johnson III from the Rams (which had the best secondary in the NFL last season) and they’ll be getting back injured players Delpit and Williams. 1
SCBills Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: DBs should go to the Browns. White is the best on either team and Wallace is solid, but it really drops off at CB after that. Taron is serviceable and Jackson is a still very unproven late round pick - though he did show some promise. Poyer and Hyde are very good safeties but all that we have behind them is Neal. The Browns are looking like they could be stacked there. Ward and Harrison are very good DBs, first round pick Greg Newsome II is an excellent (if unproven) CB prospect, they picked up two FAs in Hill and Johnson III from the Rams (which had the best secondary in the NFL last season) and they’ll be getting back injured players Delpit and Williams. If Greg Newsome hits, I wouldn't argue that with you. However, Miami drafted a corner early last year and he got torched, so we'll see - doesn't always work that way, especially as a rookie. 1
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, BarleyNY said: DBs should go to the Browns. White is the best on either team and Wallace is solid, but it really drops off at CB after that. Taron is serviceable and Jackson is a still very unproven late round pick - though he did show some promise. Poyer and Hyde are very good safeties but all that we have behind them is Neal. The Browns are looking like they could be stacked there. Ward and Harrison are very good DBs, first round pick Greg Newsome II is an excellent (if unproven) CB prospect, they picked up two FAs in Hill and Johnson III from the Rams (which had the best secondary in the NFL last season) and they’ll be getting back injured players Delpit and Williams. White and the safeties give the Bills edge -no question. Not to mention an emerging Taron Johnson. The other CB is a wash until Newsome proves he can play at this level better than the Bills guys. Edited May 5, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, NewEra said: Until the super bowl, where they were able to run 28 times for 150 yard 5.3 ypc. the Bucs had an OL that was capable of opening holes in the run game.... Arians just didn’t want to run. The Bucs have a QB and an offensive coordinator that are both fully committed to "take what the defense is giving you". Part of the Bills taking their next step is Allen learning to do that before halftime.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 41 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: DBs should go to the Browns. White is the best on either team and Wallace is solid, but it really drops off at CB after that. Taron is serviceable and Jackson is a still very unproven late round pick - though he did show some promise. Poyer and Hyde are very good safeties but all that we have behind them is Neal. The Browns are looking like they could be stacked there. Ward and Harrison are very good DBs, first round pick Greg Newsome II is an excellent (if unproven) CB prospect, they picked up two FAs in Hill and Johnson III from the Rams (which had the best secondary in the NFL last season) and they’ll be getting back injured players Delpit and Williams. "Looking like" is the key word. Last year, it shouldn't even be a question that the Browns secondary was not as good as the Bills. There's also not a question at all that the Browns went out and made FA acquisitions and draft choices that on paper, should entirely overhall and improve their secondary! But that's really what this thread seems to be about - using "winning the offseason" as a criterion to decide who is gonna win the season. As Bills fans, we've been there done that and bought the T-shirt. Remember when the Bills had the absolute best DL in the NFL - on paper? 2012, if you don't. Mario Williams. Woooo! If y'all didn't get over this "better on paper" thing then, Why didn't ya? Just as KC remains the team to beat in the AFC until proven otherwise (despite completely overhauling their OL and losing significant starters on D), the Bills IMO remain the #2 seed until proven otherwise. They played a harder schedule than the Browns. They didn't have the stout D they wanted, but they had a better D than the Browns last season, even without looking at improvement towards the end of the season. The Browns took a lot of steps to shore up their weaknesses - maybe flashier steps than the Bills. Good for them! Here's the point: they needed to do so. Beane and McDermott didn't do much flashy, but IMHO they honed in on what they decided were the Bills biggest weaknesses (DL and OL) and added judiciously elsewhere with bargain players they could afford. They quietly took what steps they could to bolster the roster. Will the Bills wind up with an improved OL and improved pressure from the DL? Tune in during the season. Sure, if the Browns moves all pan out while the Bills tread water, the Browns could wind up being a better team. But if at least some of the Bills moves pan out and we wind up with better pressure from the DL and a more solid, reliable running game due to adding a COP back and improved run blocking, then we've kept up in the arms race (or even moved ahead) Time will tell.
GunnerBill Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, SCBills said: I think we need to be able to run well, when we run, but I don't think we need to be running all that often. The main issue for us in the KC game was that we couldn't go with a change-up (run game) or curve (Tight End Play) when KC took away our fastball (WR's). That game, in retrospect, was a disaster, given we now know that all 4 of our WR's were significantly injured and the refs allowed them to play physical the entire way. That, combined with our inability to go anywhere else with the ball, allowed them to tee off on Josh Allen in the pass game AND close off his escape routes. Can't rely on refs to officiate one way or the other, so we need to be adaptable, and I do think Sanders over Brown was in direct response to this game. Let's hope the run game follows and we see it improve this year. I'd add out total inability to deal with Spags pressure packages. His rush schemes caused us problems in both meetings. They were our two worst games of the season in terms of pass pro. 1 2
Patrick Duffy Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I'd add out total inability to deal with Spags pressure packages. His rush schemes caused us problems in both meetings. They were our two worst games of the season in terms of pass pro. Yup and you can be sure other teams were paying attention. So need to address that for sure.
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