BruceVilanch Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 23 minutes ago, nbbillsfan said: while I would love this to be true, I don’t really see it. Rousseau played at about 246 and Calais played at close to 290. Even with a full year of bulking, Greg was about 25 lighter on draft day. Maybe Greg can grow into his body, but Calais was an much bigger as a draft prospect. I mean, I was 215 in the military, and I'm 250 now, so it CAN happen! 3
CaptnCoke11 Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Mat68 said: The comp is Cilias Campbell. Same school similar size, similar measurables. Covid 19 allowed a player like Rousseau to fall. As a redshirt freshman first time playing de got 15.5 sacks. If he had 1/2 that production last year he is a top 20 pick. I don’t see the comp to Campbell other than school. They aren’t even close to the same type of player 1
BADOLBILZ Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 hour ago, nbbillsfan said: while I would love this to be true, I don’t really see it. Rousseau played at about 246 and Calais played at close to 290. Even with a full year of bulking, Greg was about 25 lighter on draft day. Maybe Greg can grow into his body, but Calais was an much bigger as a draft prospect. The comparison has some to do with the school and some with their measurables being similar(like their relatively unimpressive 30" vertical leaps) but I think it's also that they were both kinda' slept on in the draft process. Early in Campbell's college career there was a lot of speculation that he could be a top 5 overall pick. When he hit the draft process the talking heads were running him down and you'd regularly see him mocked as an afterthought in the 4th or 5th round. When Arizona selected him in round 2 the attitude from most was "too rich for my blood". The story is similar with Rousseau. First impression was great.........and people have been trying to talk themselves out of it since. Campbell ended up playing in the 3-4 which muted his production but people in the NFL knew how good he was. Then when he went to Jacksonville late in his career and was turned loose he put up big numbers despite not being a twitchy, quick edge. Campbell is more powerful, but Rousseau's length is more functional. His hands are almost 2" larger than Campbell and those have been Rousseau's calling card. He makes plays on the ball and tackles people from unexpected angles..........they function well with his "GPS" as Beane calls it........a knack for finding the football and getting to it. I think he has a chance to be a big stat producer, even if it isn't pretty. And that said, he's very inexperienced. Maybe they can develop him more as a pure edge rusher as well. I was impressed by some of the work they did with the relatively stiff AJ Epenesa last year. 3
No_Matter_What Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 10 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said: I don’t necessarily disagree but if Beane was sure in what he had with Rousseau I can’t see him making the Basham pick when you also factor in Epenesa last year. If all 3 of them hit, Beane isn’t gonna be able to sign them all to a 2nd contract. Seems like it was a pick 3 and hope at least 1 or 2 hits deal . My guess is if Beane knew Basham was gonna be there at pick 61, he would’ve picked a DB at pick 30. If all of them hit, then we will have at least 3 years of good/great production from each, which is by itself great. Then we will decide which one or two are the best and keep them and let the third one go for comp pick. I think it would be an amazing problem to have. 1
BigDingus Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 On 5/1/2021 at 8:46 PM, White Linen said: Way too broad of an apology. No where near the same type of player and not drafted near each other. There's little to compare to have any rational discussion about them but if you want to compare players we drafted 12 years apart, have fun. You are way too sensitive man lol. Way to overblow the tiniest thing & get defensive about it. Maybe re-read my original post & realize I never once insulted the guy. I'm sorry if he's your dad or something. On 5/2/2021 at 7:13 AM, Don Otreply said: Look at the crew that drafted Maybin..., that pretty much says it all, The crew that drafted Maybin was a bunch of dolts. I'm not worried in the slightest.
BuffaloRebound Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 4 hours ago, No_Matter_What said: If all of them hit, then we will have at least 3 years of good/great production from each, which is by itself great. Then we will decide which one or two are the best and keep them and let the third one go for comp pick. I think it would be an amazing problem to have. I don’t know. I mean you gotta admit Oliver, Epenesa, Rousseau, and Basham is a bit over-kill in terms of high draft picks on the D-Line the last 3 years. There’s far worse positions to be using that kind of draft capital on, but just seems like we could get old at WR and DB rather quickly.
Don Otreply Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 4 hours ago, BigDingus said: You are way too sensitive man lol. Way to overblow the tiniest thing & get defensive about it. Maybe re-read my original post & realize I never once insulted the guy. I'm sorry if he's your dad or something. The crew that drafted Maybin was a bunch of dolts. I'm not worried in the slightest. Nor should anyone be,
BarleyNY Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 14 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Pardon me for being blunt about it, but you have to realize that Beane takes the best player available in the early rounds. He isn't looking his roster. (Now, of course, if the BPA is a QB, Beane's not taking him.) If the BPA at 30 had been a corner, Beane would have taken him and probably hoped that one of Rousseau or Basham fell to him in the second round. He may even have tried to trade up. But Beane said that the corners they liked always were gone before their pick came. What Beane said was that Rousseau was his BPA at 30 - and happily filled a need, and Basham was a clear BPA in the next round, and he plays a "premium position." In essence, he said maybe you can have too many good punters, but you can't have too many good defensive ends. I hear what you're saying about Epenesa and all, and the answer is that McDermott and Beane don't care. They want the best talent they can get, and they'll figure out what to do with it. Who knows what's going to happen? Maybe Rousseau turns into a tackle and they trade Oliver. Or they trade Epenesa. Or one of them has a career-altering injury. McBeane aren't concerned about that today (even though it confuses you and me). They just aren't. Take the best players you can get and figure out what to do with them later. I think the BPA angle gets simplified and thrown around too much without context. There are many different ways to define BPA wrt drafting. Ability, upside, floor, positional value, scarcity, risk, FA replacement cost, need, scheme fit, etc., etc. There is almost never a clear cut winner across the criteria. I’m sure that at 30 Beane could’ve justified a number of players as the “best available”. Or a trade up or down the board for that matter. The Bills strategy seems pretty clear. DEs have drawn the largest free agent contracts recently. Premium position and expensive to get one as a FA so they have loaded up on them in the last two drafts in order to shore up that position and save cap space next season and beyond. Ditto OT with 3rd & 5th round picks. The Rousseau pick wasn’t just a matter of “we’re picking 30th and he’s the BPA there, so nothing to do but take him”. It was definitely more strategy driven. Like a lot of people here I’d have rather had them focus at least somewhat on short term improvement and spread their capital around to other important areas of the team. I get the plan, but I’m just disappointed by it because I don’t see how it get the Bills over the hump to a championship. 1
Boxcar Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 16 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Pardon me for being blunt about it, but you have to realize that Beane takes the best player available in the early rounds. He isn't looking his roster. (Now, of course, if the BPA is a QB, Beane's not taking him.) If the BPA at 30 had been a corner, Beane would have taken him and probably hoped that one of Rousseau or Basham fell to him in the second round. He may even have tried to trade up. But Beane said that the corners they liked always were gone before their pick came. What Beane said was that Rousseau was his BPA at 30 - and happily filled a need, and Basham was a clear BPA in the next round, and he plays a "premium position." In essence, he said maybe you can have too many good punters, but you can't have too many good defensive ends. I hear what you're saying about Epenesa and all, and the answer is that McDermott and Beane don't care. They want the best talent they can get, and they'll figure out what to do with it. Who knows what's going to happen? Maybe Rousseau turns into a tackle and they trade Oliver. Or they trade Epenesa. Or one of them has a career-altering injury. McBeane aren't concerned about that today (even though it confuses you and me). They just aren't. Take the best players you can get and figure out what to do with them later. What's great about Rousseau is that he's played effectively as a DT, so he should be able to rotate inside and outside. Hell, he could probably play LB in a pinch, who knows. Guy is a freak.
Einstein's Dog Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 3 hours ago, BarleyNY said: The Bills strategy seems pretty clear. DEs have drawn the largest free agent contracts recently. Premium position and expensive to get one as a FA so they have loaded up on them in the last two drafts in order to shore up that position and save cap space next season and beyond. Ditto OT with 3rd & 5th round picks. The Rousseau pick wasn’t just a matter of “we’re picking 30th and he’s the BPA there, so nothing to do but take him”. It was definitely more strategy driven. Like a lot of people here I’d have rather had them focus at least somewhat on short term improvement and spread their capital around to other important areas of the team. I get the plan, but I’m just disappointed by it because I don’t see how it get the Bills over the hump to a championship. I was in total agreement with you until you got to the last paragraph. What would you have liked them to do? I can understand it a little, I would like to see Ertz come here. But for the draft the Bills took the bpa in the area of expensive need. It's how you stay good for a lengthy period of time.
Shaw66 Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 2 hours ago, BarleyNY said: I think the BPA angle gets simplified and thrown around too much without context. There are many different ways to define BPA wrt drafting. Ability, upside, floor, positional value, scarcity, risk, FA replacement cost, need, scheme fit, etc., etc. There is almost never a clear cut winner across the criteria. I’m sure that at 30 Beane could’ve justified a number of players as the “best available”. Or a trade up or down the board for that matter. The Bills strategy seems pretty clear. DEs have drawn the largest free agent contracts recently. Premium position and expensive to get one as a FA so they have loaded up on them in the last two drafts in order to shore up that position and save cap space next season and beyond. Ditto OT with 3rd & 5th round picks. The Rousseau pick wasn’t just a matter of “we’re picking 30th and he’s the BPA there, so nothing to do but take him”. It was definitely more strategy driven. Like a lot of people here I’d have rather had them focus at least somewhat on short term improvement and spread their capital around to other important areas of the team. I get the plan, but I’m just disappointed by it because I don’t see how it get the Bills over the hump to a championship. I think is a pretty fair, if overly broad, statement. They grade each player and rank them, and in the first couple of rounds, they take the guy they graded highest, regardless of whether any one thinks the Bills "need" someone at that position. Clearly, that was the case with Basham. No reasonable person would think that the Bills "needed" a defensive end with Hughes, Addison, Epenesa, and Rousseau on board. The Basham pick had nothing to do with short-term improvement, what you say you wanted. And that was exactly my point - Beane has said over and over again that he does not use the early round draft picks for "need," or for "short-term-improvement." So, I get that people may criticize this or other drafts for failing to fill "needs" in the early rounds, but from my point of view of that's a pointless complaint. We all know that's not how Beane is going to operate. It's the equivalent of complaining that the Bills team colors should be orange and black - they aren't, and there's nothing to be done about it. As for whether Beane's is the right strategy, I think it is. I say this often - the game is more about coaching and less about talent than many fans think. McBeane's strategy is acquire the best talent in the aggregate and let the coaches figure out how to deploy it. Your strategy is to have the best talent possible at each position. Well, so long as his corner backs, for example, can play up to some standard, McDermott doesn't care all that much how high over that standard any particular corner back is. Sure, he wants the best players he can get at the position, but if the guys he has are good enough, he knows that the success or failure of the defense will ride on how well the coaches scheme, teach the scheme, and get the players to execute that scheme. The execution of the scheme depends less on talent and more on brains and determination than most fans think. In other words, McBeane care about having impact players, but where they have those impact players in the lineup is less important than we the fans tend to think. I do think you're correct, however, in that the definition of BPA is broader than most people (including me, and that's why I find your post informative) generally think and that position and need enter into that ranking. No matter how talented the guy is, a punter is not going to be the BPA because of his position, and no matter how talented the guy is, a QB is not going to be the BPA for the Bills because of lack of need. But as I just said, Basham's position on the Bills' big board did not change after the Rousseau pick. His position vis a vis other players on the board didn't change. Need may have been a factor in determining his rank on the board, but his rank didn't change. 2
BarleyNY Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said: I was in total agreement with you until you got to the last paragraph. What would you have liked them to do? I can understand it a little, I would like to see Ertz come here. But for the draft the Bills took the bpa in the area of expensive need. It's how you stay good for a lengthy period of time. Dunno, maybe select a CB, speed WR, 1 Tech or even a TE that could contribute this season - even if it meant maneuvering in the draft a bit (nothing extravagant). Or they could’ve selected some other needed depth position like center so we have someone in the pipeline that can take over for Morse this season if/when Morse has another concussion or (more hopefully) next season. Instead we probably will be shuffling the line and/or looking for a center next offseason. We don’t have much in the way of CBs on contract after this season either. We could use more help there this season and in the immediate future. I expected more from the draft than a couple DEs who will be developing for next season and two longer term projects at OT. That’s what I feel like we got.
junior Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 13 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said: I don’t see the comp to Campbell other than school. They aren’t even close to the same type of player 16 hours ago, Mat68 said: The comp is Cilias Campbell. Same school similar size, similar measurables. Covid 19 allowed a player like Rousseau to fall. As a redshirt freshman first time playing de got 15.5 sacks. If he had 1/2 that production last year he is a top 20 pick. 15 hours ago, nbbillsfan said: while I would love this to be true, I don’t really see it. Rousseau played at about 246 and Calais played at close to 290. Even with a full year of bulking, Greg was about 25 lighter on draft day. Maybe Greg can grow into his body, but Calais was an much bigger as a draft prospect. I think the better comp is Carlos Dunlap. Here are their measurables: Gregory Rousseau Height: 6'6" Weight: 266 lbs. Arm length: 33.75" Hand size: 11" 40 yard dash: 4.69 sec. Vertical: 30" Bench press: 21 Broad jump: 9'7" Shuttle: 4.45 sec. 3 cone: 7.5 sec. Carlos Dunlap: Height: 6'6" Weight: 278 lbs. Arm length: 34.5" Hand size: 10" 40 yard dash: 4.68 sec. Vertical: 31.5" Bench press: 21 Broad jump: 9'3" Shuttle: 4.61 3 cone: 7.21 I couldn't find any of Dunlap's college tape, but some of his NFL highlights look similar to Rousseau's. I'd be pretty happy if Rousseau turned out to be like him. 4
NewEra Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 20 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said: I don’t necessarily disagree but if Beane was sure in what he had with Rousseau I can’t see him making the Basham pick when you also factor in Epenesa last year. If all 3 of them hit, Beane isn’t gonna be able to sign them all to a 2nd contract. Seems like it was a pick 3 and hope at least 1 or 2 hits deal . My guess is if Beane knew Basham was gonna be there at pick 61, he would’ve picked a DB at pick 30. If all 3 hit than we have 3 good DEs for the next 3-5 years and we can trade one for a 2nd rd pick. Not a bad problem to have. Having 3 good pass rushers + Ed would give us a dynamic pass rush. That’s the best case scenario 3
Rocket94 Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, NewEra said: If all 3 hit than we have 3 good DEs for the next 3-5 years and we can trade one for a 2nd rd pick. Not a bad problem to have. Having 3 good pass rushers + Ed would give us a dynamic pass rush. That’s the best case scenario I say keep all three if they work out. I would maximize their talents and have them all over the field!
NewEra Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Rocket94 said: I say keep all three if they work out. I would maximize their talents and have them all over the field! Tough to pay 3 stud DEs while paying a QB 40M+. We’ll be lucky to keep 2 imo
Coach Tuesday Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, NewEra said: Tough to pay 3 stud DEs while paying a QB 40M+. We’ll be lucky to keep 2 imo For years the Bills have treated the draft like a hole-filling exercise and it has never worked out. Ever. The strategy this year was simple: BPA at premium positions. You seem to be complaining that they didn't reach for a lower-level cornerback or center instead of a higher-rated pass rusher or tackle prospect. That kind of approach is what has demonstratively failed for this franchise for decades. If the worst thing that comes out of the last two drafts is that they end up with too many good young d-line prospects in a couple of years, that would be an amazing problem to have. 3 2
Shaw66 Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 I listened to some of the call with Beane, Schoen and whoever with season ticket holders. He said an interesting thing about the first round, including the corner back decision. He actually said something like all of the guys on whom they had a first round grade were gone after the first 12 or 15 picks, except Rousseau. Jaycee Horne and Surtain were the two CBs who went that high. So, they were just waiting to see if Rousseau fell. Now, maybe there was another name in there, but the cupboard was essentially bare half way through the first round. He also said, I think, that when they were on the clock in the first round, a team called wanting to trade up into the first, but the Bills were taking the guy they had with a first-round grade. If Rousseau hadn't been there, they would have been trading out of the first round. He said in a different interview that they had a trade in place for their second round pick but declined it because Basham fell to them. It's interesting because I used to wonder about those drafts when Belichick kept trading back. The Bills were one player away from trading back in the first, and one player away from trading back in the second. The Bills could have been sitting with something like three thirds and an extra second next year. 1
HeHateMe Posted May 5, 2021 Posted May 5, 2021 29 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: For years the Bills have treated the draft like a hole-filling exercise and it has never worked out. Ever. The strategy this year was simple: BPA at premium positions. You seem to be complaining that they didn't reach for a lower-level cornerback or center instead of a higher-rated pass rusher or tackle prospect. That kind of approach is what has demonstratively failed for this franchise for decades. If the worst thing that comes out of the last two drafts is that they end up with too many good young d-line prospects in a couple of years, that would be an amazing problem to have. This is exactly right, we can draft a center in round 3 next year in a better draft... And draft corner higher if needed. They are probably bringing in another vet at CB this year anyways. You know what helps DBs the most? A great pass rush... No one can cover Tyrek Hill or Kelce, you have to get to Mahomes and throw off his timing, etc.
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