Can Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah cover Kelce as effectively as Lavonte David?

[NewEra]

43 minutes ago, Muppy said:

I would live to see this guy in a Bills uniform its been ages since the Bills had any Golden Domers on the roster but the trade scenario I thought was too rich an expenditure in draft capitol so I voted No.

 
I hear ya. It might be steep for me too.  I used the draft pick value chart we use in the 2.0 mock draft to trade up to 21 with colts.  I just threw it together, basically to get the sense of how the board felt about trading up for him.  I know everyone liked him....he was voted as our pick in rd 1 in 1.0, but I wanted to gauge the trade interest.  
 

what I found out:  

- the price I suggested was too steep. 

- people love to argue, even when there’s nothing to argue about. 
-  Devin smith sucks in coverage

-  Lavonte David and Edmunds are = in coverage 

-  David wasn’t the main reason the chiefs offense was shut down in the super bowl.

-  I’m wrong.  Dunno about what, but it’s clear that I’m wrong about something 

[djp14150]

I don’t think Kielce is any different than Gronk.

 

ifyouget a lead forcing them into pure pass and then play a 2-4-5 where 2-3 of back 9 blitz causing confusion and QB pressure rushing throws.

[just1hugheser]

I don't know why Taron has to be the one to come off the field.  The point for me anyway of getting  a JOK type of LB is to move toward more of a TiTe/Mint type of base which basically takes a linemen off the field and in place you get the versatile LB/CB type.   This is basically a hybrid of our nickel but when used properly is better against the run while still allowing for advantage in coverage.  https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-defensive-evolution-tite-mint-front-creepers

 

“When you have humongous bubbles in there, guess what you gotta do?” Smart says. “You gotta take on the guards. The guards in our league? You can’t go up there with [a small linebacker like] Roquan Smith and headbutt that guard. That’s crazy. I’d be foolish to tell a kid to go do that … You had to have ‘take-on’ backers. I mean take on a 300-pound man and you’re 245 pounds. But when they go spread, I need you to take your 245 pounds and go cover that receiver out there.”(Kirby Smart)

 

-The Tite/Mint solved that issue for him. By kicking the ends into the B-gap, which occupied the guards, the linebackers no longer had to plug those gaps themselves, meaning Smart could use lighter players who could walk out and run with a receiver if need be. In the age of spread offenses, you need those more athletic linebackers to keep up.

 

But then there’s the pass rush question. Well, with that hybrid player aligned on the line of scrimmage in the Mint front, you still get that fourth rusher that traditional fronts provide.

“The Mint front is really a four-down front in the window dressing of a three-down front,” says Alexander. “You’re still going to have that fourth rusher. And every NFL team has an edge rusher. That pass-rush specialist … I think that front in particular [will start to show up in the NFL]. If you watch guys like Orlando, Aranda and Kirby Smart, it allows them to get in their four-down and three-down and gives them that multiplicity that you wouldn’t get if you were really rigid.”(Smart)

[just1hugheser]

Especially if the light goes on for Edmunds and we get better DLine play we will have a multitude of looks we can give because all 3 of our LB's are so multiple, then we grab a CB because there is so much depth and now we are giving them some ingredients to cook with on D.  We make a draft day trade for Ertz who shows Knox how to turn his lights on to consistency.   And there will still be some wr's and interior olinemen and edge rushers around in rounds 3-7.   

 

But like many say JOK won't be there anyway, they have to let the board come to them and then go from there, plenty of good options.

[NewEra]

24 minutes ago, just1hugheser said:

I don't know why Taron has to be the one to come off the field.  The point for me anyway of getting  a JOK type of LB is to move toward more of a TiTe/Mint type of base which basically takes a linemen off the field and in place you get the versatile LB/CB type.   This is basically a hybrid of our nickel but when used properly is better against the run while still allowing for advantage in coverage.  https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-defensive-evolution-tite-mint-front-creepers

 

“When you have humongous bubbles in there, guess what you gotta do?” Smart says. “You gotta take on the guards. The guards in our league? You can’t go up there with [a small linebacker like] Roquan Smith and headbutt that guard. That’s crazy. I’d be foolish to tell a kid to go do that … You had to have ‘take-on’ backers. I mean take on a 300-pound man and you’re 245 pounds. But when they go spread, I need you to take your 245 pounds and go cover that receiver out there.”(Kirby Smart)

 

-The Tite/Mint solved that issue for him. By kicking the ends into the B-gap, which occupied the guards, the linebackers no longer had to plug those gaps themselves, meaning Smart could use lighter players who could walk out and run with a receiver if need be. In the age of spread offenses, you need those more athletic linebackers to keep up.

 

But then there’s the pass rush question. Well, with that hybrid player aligned on the line of scrimmage in the Mint front, you still get that fourth rusher that traditional fronts provide.

“The Mint front is really a four-down front in the window dressing of a three-down front,” says Alexander. “You’re still going to have that fourth rusher. And every NFL team has an edge rusher. That pass-rush specialist … I think that front in particular [will start to show up in the NFL]. If you watch guys like Orlando, Aranda and Kirby Smart, it allows them to get in their four-down and three-down and gives them that multiplicity that you wouldn’t get if you were really rigid.”(Smart)

Great post and insight, thanks.  This is the kind of stuff I’d like to see us work into out playbook and why I think he might be worth trading up for.  The skill set he brings to the table can’t be replicated by anyone in this draft class imo.  

I wasn’t insinuating that Taron comes off the field.  I’m just saying that we don’t have to play straight nickel 91% of the time.  JOK is a chess piece to use in several different ways and allows us to do different things.  
 

I feel that we should be focused on becoming more multidimensional on both sides of the ball.

 

Adding another TE threat on offense to have a threat when we run 2TE sets, which could help open up our run game which in turn opens up the deep ball even more.  

 

Adding a player like JOK could really allow us to do so many different things on d.  He’s a beast vs the pass, as a blitzer and vs the run.  Tremendous instincts and flies to ball.  Add 10lbs to him and watch out.  

Edited April 24, 2021 by NewEra

[Johnny Hammersticks]

I’d like to draft Zaven Collins at 30.  Between he and Tremaine, I think they can cause a lot of problems for opposing OCs in terms of both coverage and pass rush if utilized properly.  

[BADOLBILZ]

 

I will believe that a LB/S hybrid can consistently shut down top pass catching TE's when I see it.

 

IMO........when the Bills play KC........Tre White should be matched up with Kelce. (he's too slow to impact Tyreek Hill much anyway) 

 

For that to be the case they need two other capable boundary CB's more than they need a big nickel. 

 

I'm not terribly uncomfortable with Levi or Dane Jackson being one of them, but they need to interject another more talented CB into that group.

[Rochesterfan]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

 
I hear ya. It might be steep for me too.  I used the draft pick value chart we use in the 2.0 mock draft to trade up to 21 with colts.  I just threw it together, basically to get the sense of how the board felt about trading up for him.  I know everyone liked him....he was voted as our pick in rd 1 in 1.0, but I wanted to gauge the trade interest.  
 

what I found out:  

- the price I suggested was too steep. 

- people love to argue, even when there’s nothing to argue about. 
-  Devin smith sucks in coverage

-  Lavonte David and Edmunds are = in coverage 

-  David wasn’t the main reason the chiefs offense was shut down in the super bowl.

-  I’m wrong.  Dunno about what, but it’s clear that I’m wrong about something 

 

If you really wanted to know just about JOK - change the stupid name of you thread to what do you think of JOK and is he worth a trade up - take David right out of the title.

 

Your title is what brings up David and what people are reacting to because it implies that TB did a better job at covering TEs than the Bills did.  This is where everything goes wrong.

 

The fact that TB was overall one of the worst teams at covering TEs in 2020 right near the bottom of the league with the Bills is a huge part of the issue.  Issue 2 is that the 2018 and 2019 version of the Bills were highly effective using Edmunds and Milano at covering TEs - to the point that in 2018 they didn’t give up a TD and were tops in the league.
 

So what we know is the Bills have been effective and struggled badly last year, but TB was just as bad at covering TEs to the point that they gave up more TDs in the regular season than the Bills did.

 

So overall the issues is that you title the thread to compare JOK to David and then get mad when people point out facts about how poor the TB coverage was on TEs throughout the year - it isn’t necessarily a knock on David specifically - which is how Devin White got involved.  You got the discussion you got because of that.

 

It is obvious by the fact that the board choose JOK in the mock that people like him and think he would be a great addition.  It is also equally obvious that many people think the 2 3rd round picks is way to expensive for him.  

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

If you really wanted to know just about JOK - change the stupid name of you thread to what do you think of JOK and is he worth a trade up - take David right out of the title.

 

Your title is what brings up David and what people are reacting to because it implies that TB did a better job at covering TEs than the Bills did.  This is where everything goes wrong.

 

The fact that TB was overall one of the worst teams at covering TEs in 2020 right near the bottom of the league with the Bills is a huge part of the issue.  Issue 2 is that the 2018 and 2019 version of the Bills were highly effective using Edmunds and Milano at covering TEs - to the point that in 2018 they didn’t give up a TD and were tops in the league.
 

So what we know is the Bills have been effective and struggled badly last year, but TB was just as bad at covering TEs to the point that they gave up more TDs in the regular season than the Bills did.

 

So overall the issues is that you title the thread to compare JOK to David and then get mad when people point out facts about how poor the TB coverage was on TEs throughout the year - it isn’t necessarily a knock on David specifically - which is how Devin White got involved.  You got the discussion you got because of that.

 

It is obvious by the fact that the board choose JOK in the mock that people like him and think he would be a great addition.  It is also equally obvious that many people think the 2 3rd round picks is way to expensive for him.  

Bruh.  Why are you so angry.  Just add me to your ignore list. 

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

I’d like to draft Zaven Collins at 30.  Between he and Tremaine, I think they can cause a lot of problems for opposing OCs in terms of both coverage and pass rush if utilized properly.  

Completely agree.  Zaven is someone I can get behind, bc his skillset isn't the same as someone we already have (ie:JOK and Milano are similar players, be used similar in our scheme).

 

Zaven would likely be utilized like Zo was, and would give us a lot more options with our defense.  If he or one of the top 4 CB last until 30, it should be an easy pick

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Bruh.  Why are you so angry.  Just add me to your ignore list. 

 

I’m not angry and I don’t ignore people.

You stated you wanted to know about JOK and got a bunch of responses about David and people disagreeing with you - I am trying to explain why I have responded.  I am responding to your title and then posts made within - sorry we disagree, but it is a reasonable response to what has been posted based upon your title and the previous discussion.

 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I’m not angry and I don’t ignore people.

You stated you wanted to know about JOK and got a bunch of responses about David and people disagreeing with you - I am trying to explain why I have responded.  I am responding to your title and then posts made within - sorry we disagree, but it is a reasonable response to what has been posted based upon your title and the previous discussion.

 

I’m not sorry we disagree. Just ignore me.  

 

you wrote paragraph after paragraph after paragraph about tell me about why I shouldn’t have included Lavonte David in my post.  Like I’ve said before.......cool.  
 

Thanks for the input.  I could really care less if 3 people have a problem with this thread.  I think it’s hilarious.  
 

If you want to discuss JOK, discuss him.  If you want to cry about the title, cry more

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I will believe that a LB/S hybrid can consistently shut down top pass catching TE's when I see it.

 

IMO........when the Bills play KC........Tre White should be matched up with Kelce. (he's too slow to impact Tyreek Hill much anyway) 

 

For that to be the case they need two other capable boundary CB's more than they need a big nickel. 

 

I'm not terribly uncomfortable with Levi or Dane Jackson being one of them, but they need to interject another more talented CB into that group.

 

I don’t disagree, but when they did have Tre on TEs last year and he struggled.  Tre is not quite physical enough or big enough to cover TEs super effectively.  Kelce is able to box out Tre and also go up for catches above him.

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I’m not sorry we disagree. Just ignore me.  

 

you wrote paragraph after paragraph after paragraph about tell me about why I shouldn’t have included Lavonte David in my post.  Like I’ve said before.......cool.  
 

Thanks for the input.  I could really care less if 3 people have a problem with this thread.  I think it’s hilarious.  
 

If you want to discuss JOK, discuss him.  If you want to cry about the title, cry more

 

Cool enjoy.

[WideNine]

19 hours ago, just1hugheser said:

I don't know why Taron has to be the one to come off the field.  The point for me anyway of getting  a JOK type of LB is to move toward more of a TiTe/Mint type of base which basically takes a linemen off the field and in place you get the versatile LB/CB type.   This is basically a hybrid of our nickel but when used properly is better against the run while still allowing for advantage in coverage.  https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-defensive-evolution-tite-mint-front-creepers

 

“When you have humongous bubbles in there, guess what you gotta do?” Smart says. “You gotta take on the guards. The guards in our league? You can’t go up there with [a small linebacker like] Roquan Smith and headbutt that guard. That’s crazy. I’d be foolish to tell a kid to go do that … You had to have ‘take-on’ backers. I mean take on a 300-pound man and you’re 245 pounds. But when they go spread, I need you to take your 245 pounds and go cover that receiver out there.”(Kirby Smart)

 

-The Tite/Mint solved that issue for him. By kicking the ends into the B-gap, which occupied the guards, the linebackers no longer had to plug those gaps themselves, meaning Smart could use lighter players who could walk out and run with a receiver if need be. In the age of spread offenses, you need those more athletic linebackers to keep up.

 

But then there’s the pass rush question. Well, with that hybrid player aligned on the line of scrimmage in the Mint front, you still get that fourth rusher that traditional fronts provide.

“The Mint front is really a four-down front in the window dressing of a three-down front,” says Alexander. “You’re still going to have that fourth rusher. And every NFL team has an edge rusher. That pass-rush specialist … I think that front in particular [will start to show up in the NFL]. If you watch guys like Orlando, Aranda and Kirby Smart, it allows them to get in their four-down and three-down and gives them that multiplicity that you wouldn’t get if you were really rigid.”(Smart)

 

Interesting.

 

I know that Bowles has a 3-4 base coaching-tree background, but unlike traditional (think back to Parcels and Belichick) 3-4 defenses that promote 2-gap techniques for the defensive linemen (head up on the o-linemen so defender can take either gap), Bowles insists on using a 1-gap technique with his defensive linemen having them lining up and attacking the gaps and forcing double teams which often leave a man free to rush the passer.

 

Helps that his interior guys were beating their doubles too.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by WideNine

[just1hugheser]

23 hours ago, NewEra said:

Great post and insight, thanks.  This is the kind of stuff I’d like to see us work into out playbook and why I think he might be worth trading up for.  The skill set he brings to the table can’t be replicated by anyone in this draft class imo.  

I wasn’t insinuating that Taron comes off the field.  I’m just saying that we don’t have to play straight nickel 91% of the time.  JOK is a chess piece to use in several different ways and allows us to do different things.  
 

I feel that we should be focused on becoming more multidimensional on both sides of the ball.

 

Adding another TE threat on offense to have a threat when we run 2TE sets, which could help open up our run game which in turn opens up the deep ball even more.  

 

Adding a player like JOK could really allow us to do so many different things on d.  He’s a beast vs the pass, as a blitzer and vs the run.  Tremendous instincts and flies to ball.  Add 10lbs to him and watch out.  

 

 

I'm def a little biased as I am also a born ND fan, but he isnt the only player in this draft that adds similar dimensions to our defense, Parson, Collins, Davis are all guys of varying abilities and strengths and weaknesses but in general are guys with athleticism that aren't an automatic liability in coverage.  I like the philosophy of the tite front in terms of the DE 4i shade to engage the guards and control the b gaps, also the idea of forcing the offense to the perimeter and letting my athletes(speed) fill.(spill and kill).  With the right personnel it can be a deadly scheme which is true of any scheme, I'm just thinking since this is the way college has gone we increase our probability of finding players more in line with this scheme than with say an old style 4-3 that needs a thumper at mlb.  I was always a big fan of Wade's defenses and the 3-4 in general because of the versatility and aggressiveness when the right front 7 is in place, ditto with the 46.

[just1hugheser]

4 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Interesting.

 

I know that Bowles has a 3-4 base coaching-tree background, but unlike traditional (think back to Parcels and Belichick) 3-4 defenses that promote 2-gap techniques for the defensive linemen (head up on the o-linemen so defender can take either gap), Bowles insists on using a 1-gap technique with his defensive linemen having them lining up and attacking the gaps and forcing double teams which often leave a man free to rush the passer.

 

Helps that his interior guys were beating their doubles too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

players make plays they say, sure is nice when you own the line of scrimmage, its a testament to Mahomes ability to see the ridiculous throws he was still able to make while running for hs life, i really think his tes/wrs let him down a lot in that game, theres highlights somewhere they have camera and mics near Bucs sidelines and their wrs are commenting that hes a magician.

 

The one gap technique is nice because it still forces double teams, but you're just not asking a giant to sit in a hole and grab two offensive linemen usually c and g.  Players like this a lot more too because there technically isn't anyone doing dirty work, even the 0 or 1 tech is usually assigned a gap to attack and not to go face up on the center and two gap, although it can be played that way depending on preference and personnel.

 

This is another good read, its shows some of how the tite front has snuck into the nfl just not necessarily called that at the time, one of the gifs shows it pretty well from an end zone view.

-https://www.bucsnation.com/2019/7/31/18642575/tampa-bay-buccaneers-bucs-examining-the-guts-of-todd-bowles-defense

[TPS]

On 4/23/2021 at 1:55 AM, NewEra said:

I haven’t watched any of his full games.  Strictly highlights and some casual watching during his career. His cover skills look legit.  To those in the know, how is his discipline?  Is he easily baited by QBs eyes and play action?  If he can be what we thought Edmunds might be, a TE stopper, we should trade up and snag him. He’s a Jack of all trades and exactly what this D needs.  It’s a rare skill set and he could be a superstar of used correctly. We could use someone to cover Kelce and possibly Pitts if he goes to Miami,  
 

thoughts?  Worth trading up for?

Good debate through this thread. 

 

One thought:  I think if Miami drafts Pitts, then it really fortifies the case of selecting someone like JOK.   I mentioned Jamin Davis, as I read somewhere that he played well against Pitts.  In fact, if Miami gets Pitts, it may push the Bills to go for BOTH an upgrade at boundary CB and hybrid LB/S.  I'd wouldn't be unhappy with that.

[TPS]

1 hour ago, TPS said:

Good debate through this thread. 

 

One thought:  I think if Miami drafts Pitts, then it really fortifies the case of selecting someone like JOK.   I mentioned Jamin Davis, as I read somewhere that he played well against Pitts.  In fact, if Miami gets Pitts, it may push the Bills to go for BOTH an upgrade at boundary CB and hybrid LB/S.  I'd wouldn't be unhappy with that.

Two more players to add into the mix in later rounds (R3), Chaz Surrat and my favorite name in the draft Divine Deablo.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

23 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t disagree, but when they did have Tre on TEs last year and he struggled.  Tre is not quite physical enough or big enough to cover TEs super effectively.  Kelce is able to box out Tre and also go up for catches above him.

 

 

agree. If you recall, the bills would use Antoine Winfield on Tony Gonzalez back in the day, and AW did a great job of shutting him down— that’s because he was such a physical corner. 
 

Tre is great, but I think Kelce could probably push him around/box him out with no trouble.