Can Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah cover Kelce as effectively as Lavonte David?

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Yeah.  0 Tds in two games.  He scored 4 in two games on our head.  After 3 quarters he had 6 catches for 55 yards.....and the game was over.
 

Final box scores don’t tell the story.  Watch the game as opposed to looking at end game stats.. Kelce was shut down the majority of the game......but think what you like.  It was 133 btw.  78 yards in the 4th qtr with the game already being decided.  

 

TB did not let Kelce wander free and sit, they jammed him at the line and pestered him throughout his route.

 

Knowing Mahomes (much like Allen) thrives on escaping and extending plays they did not let up till the whistle.

 

Their d-line did a great job of both pressuring the pocket and the edges where Mahomes has a tendency to drop back deep with pressure in his face.

 

Mahomes is one of the best at throwing accurate balls while backpeddling, but hit and sack any QB enough and they get the "yips".

 

We were agonizingly passive against TE's all year so I agree that what we have or what we are scheming is not working. 

 

 

 

 

[Boxcar]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Kelce in 2 games against TB had 18 catches and 200 yards receiving....

People really need to stop obsessing over how to "stop" Kelce. He's one of the best TEs ever paired with one of the best QBs ever. You can not stop them. Do you not think teams tried to stop Diggs? The elite of the elite always get theirs, and we already have one of the best coverage LBs in Matt Milano. Kelce is a 6'-5", 250 pound player who can turn and run like a guy half his size. Limit the YAC and do your best to eliminate the long pass. That's all you can do. If the Chiefs want to score 30, they mostly just do. If Josh had been given the time Mahomes was, that game would have been a slugfest. Idk how TB was able to completely negate KC's offense, but I doubt it will happen again.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

People really need to stop obsessing over how to "stop" Kelce. He's one of the best TEs ever paired with one of the best QBs ever. You can not stop them. Do you not think teams tried to stop Diggs? The elite of the elite always get theirs, and we already have one of the best coverage LBs in Matt Milano. Kelce is a 6'-5", 250 pound player who can turn and run like a guy half his size. Limit the YAC and do your best to eliminate the long pass. That's all you can do. If the Chiefs want to score 30, they mostly just do. If Josh had been given the time Mahomes was, that game would have been a slugfest. Idk how TB was able to completely negate KC's offense, but I doubt it will happen again.

Did Diggs get his in the AFCCG?  Did Hill get his in the Super Bowl?  
 

maybe the correct word isn’t to “stop” a great player, but to limit them and don’t allow them to dominate.
 

tampa was able to negate them because the KC OL was a sieve   

[Boxcar]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Did Diggs get his in the AFCCG?  Did Hill get his in the Super Bowl?  
 

maybe the correct word isn’t to “stop” a great player, but to limit them and don’t allow them to dominate.
 

tampa was able to negate them because the KC OL was a sieve   

6-77 is exactly what I'd agree is not allowing them to dominate, but that is certainly a fine game for Diggs. He's had worse, specifically against LAR, LAC and even the second game against the Jets.

 

Kelce still got 133 yards, and Hill had a similar game as Diggs. So clearly the work was done to not try to prevent them from getting the ball, but limit the impact when they do. 133 yards and the Chiefs didn't score a TD, that's pretty remarkable. The Bills also had consistently garbage field position for most of that game.

[ExWNYer]

Nobody has banged the drum harder for JOK than me and I'd love to have him added to the Bills' D. That said, I'm not trading that much draft capital when the team really needs to add at CB, Edge, WR, & IDL. Better to just admire him from afar and hope that he doesn't land with a division rival.

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Boxcar said:

6-77 is exactly what I'd agree is not allowing them to dominate, but that is certainly a fine game for Diggs. He's had worse, specifically against LAR, LAC and even the second game against the Jets.

 

Kelce still got 133 yards, and Hill had a similar game as Diggs. So clearly the work was done to not try to prevent them from getting the ball, but limit the impact when they do. 133 yards and the Chiefs didn't score a TD, that's pretty remarkable. The Bills also had consistently garbage field position for most of that game.

Who cares if he’s had worse?  They threw him the ball 11 times and he had 6 catches. They shut him down.  
 

Again, Kelce had 55 yards at the end of the 3rd.  He had 78 yards in the 4th....78 yards when the game was already over.  They shut him down (and the entire offense).  
 

New schemes, new plays, new ways to attack the O, new ways to confuse the O, new players that can be multiple.  Adapting.  Reinventing.  This is what we need to do more than anything. 

[mjt328]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Here’s the thing.....McD and co need to adapt.  We can’t just run out the same defensive scheme with the same tendencies year after year.  We need a new wrinkle.  

 

There are a lot of great observations in this thread, regarding our defensive scheme.

I tend to agree with this.  Especially if we are looking to eventually beat the Chiefs.

 

Sean McDermott's scheme is very good most of the time.  But there are times when our zone coverage is just getting picked apart, and I'm screaming at the tv screen to make some kind of adjustment.  We just don't seem to have the capabilities to switch to a press/man coverage on the fly, and it's something I wish could change.

 

As several pointed out, it's rare to see Kansas City suffer a breakdown on the O-Line like they did in the Super Bowl.  Even if we somehow manage to improve our pass rush in the draft, I'm not sure we can replicate what Tampa Bay did in that game.  In my opinion, we also need some help in the secondary.  Not just role players who are decent in zone, but guys who can play man.  

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Who cares if he’s had worse?  They threw him the ball 11 times and he had 6 catches. They shut him down.  
 

Again, Kelce had 55 yards at the end of the 3rd.  He had 78 yards in the 4th....78 yards when the game was already over.  They shut him down (and the entire offense).  
 

New schemes, new plays, new ways to attack the O, new ways to confuse the O, new players that can be multiple.  Adapting.  Reinventing.  This is what we need to do more than anything. 

 

I think a lot of this had to do with KC getting out of their gameplan though.  From behind they got away from RPOs, and creating trouble at the mesh point.  It lets you kind of execute your defense more effectively.  

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Who?  Kelce?  The guy had 6 catches for 55 yards when the game was over.  He had zero TDs.  He was stopped. You might not consider that stopped because you look at his 4th qtr stats....when the game was over.  I consider him stopped

And that’s because of David?  What about Tyreek Hill?  Was he stopped too?

 

He had 8 catches in the first game for 82 yards.
 

If TB does get pressure with their front 4 all game long, David isn’t keeping up with Kelce.   Kelce does what he did against us.  Same with Hill.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[WideNine]

55 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Who cares if he’s had worse?  They threw him the ball 11 times and he had 6 catches. They shut him down.  
 

Again, Kelce had 55 yards at the end of the 3rd.  He had 78 yards in the 4th....78 yards when the game was already over.  They shut him down (and the entire offense).  
 

New schemes, new plays, new ways to attack the O, new ways to confuse the O, new players that can be multiple.  Adapting.  Reinventing.  This is what we need to do more than anything. 

 

Perhaps our TE matchup felt more horrible than it was. The Bills were #1 in the league in rec given up to TEs and #2 in yards at 92 and 993 respectively.

 

But viewed as degrees of separation TB gave up 86 rec and 832 yards. Would be interesting to see how that trended after they got Vea back into their lineup. They clearly did not need to blitz as much so the back 7 were likely beneficiaries of this change.

 

San Fran and Detroit seemed to have the best stats, but have not given a lot of thought as to why - personnel, scheme, or the way teams preferred to attack them...

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by WideNine

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

And that’s because of David?  What about Tyreek Hill?  Was he stopped too?

 

He had 8 catches in the first game for 82 yards.
 

If TB does get pressure with their front 4 all game long, David isn’t keeping up with Kelce.   Kelce does what he did against us.  Same with Hill.

Ok, so basically you’re saying that you have a problem with me putting Lavonte David in the title.  Got it.  
 

Yeah, Kelce had 8-82 and 0 Tds in the first game.  That’s 3 yards per catch below his season average.  Zero TDs.  David defended him very well. He’s one of the best coverage LBs in the league.  But you can pretend that he’s just another LB like Milano and Edmunds if you like.  He’s much better than both of them and our guys can’t hold a candle to him in coverage.  
 

And I’ll repeat......I’ve said multiple times, the main reason that TB shut down the KC O was because of the chiefs lack of OL and the TB pass rush.   
 

all this talk about Edmunds and Milano being good coverage backers.....yet we can’t cover any tight ends.  Is it scheme?  Is it the player’s?  Is it the scheme we run because the coaches don’t believe in the players?  The answer is probably a combination.  Idk.....but we better figure it out.  
 

 

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I feel like the key is getting pressure on Mahomes, like Tampa did, but I honestly don’t know if there is anyone in this draft (that we can get to) that will make that possible. 

 

jam kelsie and pressure mahomes.  Frazier needs to scheme much better this year. 

[buffaloboyinATL]

32 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

jam kelsie and pressure mahomes.  Frazier needs to scheme much better this year. 

Agreed, but he needs the right personnel to execute the plan as well. 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Ok, so basically you’re saying that you have a problem with me putting Lavonte David in the title.  Got it.  
 

Yeah, Kelce had 8-82 and 0 Tds in the first game.  That’s 3 yards per catch below his season average.  Zero TDs.  David defended him very well. He’s one of the best coverage LBs in the league.  But you can pretend that he’s just another LB like Milano and Edmunds if you like.  He’s much better than both of them and our guys can’t hold a candle to him in coverage.  
 

And I’ll repeat......I’ve said multiple times, the main reason that TB shut down the KC O was because of the chiefs lack of OL and the TB pass rush.   
 

all this talk about Edmunds and Milano being good coverage backers.....yet we can’t cover any tight ends.  Is it scheme?  Is it the player’s?  Is it the scheme we run because the coaches don’t believe in the players?  The answer is probably a combination.  Idk.....but we better figure it out.  
 

 

 

So if David is great in coverage and Edmunds and Milano can’t cover - my big question is:

 

Why for the season did TEs (including all playoff games) average only 1 more catch and 10 yards more per game against the Bills than the Bucs?  The Bills also only gave up 1 more TD to a TE than the Bucs.  The difference between the teams in TE coverage was minor.
 

It does not appear that the Bucs and David were significantly better - except in the one game that you are admitting the difference was the shattered OL for KC.

 

Also in both of their first meetings the numbers were lower:

TB - 8 catches 82 yards

Buffalo - 5 catches 65 yards

 

I think you have a significant observation bias based upon the AFC championship game and Super Bowl.

 

If you just include the regular season the teams are even closer.

 

Bucs - 5.4 catches a game 60 yards per game and 10 TDs to tight ends

Bills - 5.7 catches a game 62 yards per game and 9 TDs to TEs

 

Overall if you want coverage like David provided on TEs - it looks like Edmunds and Milano were just fine.  If you want to say that in the biggest game of the year that David did better than Edmunds - yeah I agree, but you also acknowledged the pressure because of the OLine.  So we are not comparing apples to apples.  
 

So I vote No in your poll because we already cover TEs as good as TB.  

 

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

So if David is great in coverage and Edmunds and Milano can’t cover - my big question is:

 

Why for the season did TEs (including all playoff games) average only 1 more catch and 10 yards more per game against the Bills than the Bucs?  The Bills also only gave up 1 more TD to a TE than the Bucs.  The difference between the teams in TE coverage was minor.
 

It does not appear that the Bucs and David were significantly better - except in the one game that you are admitting the difference was the shattered OL for KC.

 

Also in both of their first meetings the numbers were lower:

TB - 8 catches 82 yards

Buffalo - 5 catches 65 yards

 

I think you have a significant observation bias based upon the AFC championship game and Super Bowl.

 

If you just include the regular season the teams are even closer.

 

Bucs - 5.4 catches a game 60 yards per game and 10 TDs to tight ends

Bills - 5.7 catches a game 62 yards per game and 9 TDs to TEs

 

Overall if you want coverage like David provided on TEs - it looks like Edmunds and Milano were just fine.  If you want to say that in the biggest game of the year that David did better than Edmunds - yeah I agree, but you also acknowledged the pressure because of the OLine.  So we are not comparing apples to apples.  
 

So I vote No in your poll because we already cover TEs as good as TB.  

 

Oh my bad, we defend TE’s just fine.  Put down the stat book and watch the games. Lots of stats happen during garbage time.  

I have eyes.  I can see.  Covering tight ends is a problem for us.  Old man rivers was picking us apart with bum TEs.  Edmunds was god awful in coverage last season. His 120ish qbr against shows that to be true.  David is a MUCH better coverage Lb than Edmunds is, regardless of whatever “stats” you’d like to use.  Edmunds:  120 qbr against.  Stats. 
 

Milano is an injury waiting to happen.  Then we have have Klein and Edmunds in coverage.  They played well last year, let’s hope they can do it again.....because Milano will likely miss time. We have no LB depth. 
 

 

 

 

 

[just1hugheser]

https://thewaiterspad.com/2020/04/22/thaler-massey-and-losers/

[Rochesterfan]

22 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Oh my bad, we defend TE’s just fine.  Put down the stat book and watch the games. Lots of stats happen during garbage time.  

I have eyes.  I can see.  Covering tight ends is a problem for us.  Old man rivers was picking us apart with bum TEs.  Edmunds was god awful in coverage last season. His 120ish qbr against shows that to be true.  David is a MUCH better coverage Lb than Edmunds is, regardless of whatever “stats” you’d like to use.  Edmunds:  120 qbr against.  Stats. 
 

Milano is an injury waiting to happen.  Then we have have Klein and Edmunds in coverage.  They played well last year, let’s hope they can do it again.....because Milano will likely miss time. We have no LB depth. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn’t say we did fine - I said we were just as good as TB who you are comparing us to.  Similar completion percentage, similar catches per game, similar TDs, and similar yards per game.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, dneveu said:

I don't know that it was David's coverage that made the hugest difference.  They were in Mahomes face all night and kept them behind the sticks.  KC didn't or wouldn't run the ball and it killed them.  They had KC settling for field goals and punting more than 

 

Between that and defensive penalties putting points on the board for TB were the difference.  Offside on a FG attempt is a 4 point switch, and then letting brady get not 1 but 2 DPI penalties in the last minute added 7 more.  21-6 at half instead of something like 10-6 is a pretty huge swing.  

 

This.  The zebras were "I see nothing, nothing" when the KC DBs held like superglue during the AFCCG.  Then they started calling some fair, but also some ticky-tack DPIs and DHs in the Superbowl.  That certainly played a role.

 

But what was really made a difference IMHO is being in Mahomes face all night, pressuring and otherwise affecting him.  It helps your DB and LBs cover when the QB has to scramble around so much. 

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I didn’t say we did fine - I said we were just as good as TB who you are comparing us to.  Similar completion percentage, similar catches per game, similar TDs, and similar yards per game.

 

 

Oh my bad, Lavonte David isn’t good in coverage.  Edmunds is just as good..... yeah.  Ok.  You act as if upgrading our pass D isn’t necessary.....or you’re just nitpicking by using selective stats.  
 

Lavonte David is much better than Edmunds in coverage.  He is.  It’s true.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The Bills tried that in the 2nd half of the Championship game.... obviously didn't work. 

They blew it this offseason with all the good rushers available and decided to hang on to Addison. 

 

The Bills are in for another solid season, but I don't see how they get past the Chiefs without them suffering some significant injuries or Allen carrying the team again. 

They blew it if their plan was to put together a dominant pass rush.  Doesn’t seem like that was their plan. 
 

pass rush may have been TBDs “plan A”, but it wasn’t OBDs.  We’ll see how they plan to get this defense and offense back on top.  Still lots of time in this offseason 

10 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

White and David is the best LB combo in the league and it's not even close. 

 

Edmunds isn't in the same ball park.... he was absolutely not a "good coverage LB" last season. 

But, stats.

[MasterStrategist]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

Here’s the thing.....McD and co need to adapt.  We can’t just run out the same defensive scheme with the same tendencies year after year.  We need a new wrinkle.  
 

I’m not saying the JOK is the only answer to that, but he certainly is a possibility.  The more we stay the same, the worse off we are.  It’s unlikely that we add a game changing pass rusher @30 (or in this draft entirely).  Will a CB rd 1 or 2 change the way in which McD/Frazier calls a game?  Maybe.  I really hope that we draft a CB with one of our first 2 picks, but this guy could change the dynamic of our defense.  We neee game changers on D.   Right now, we might have 1 (Tre’davious).  We need more.
 

just a thought.  

The trade I proposed has value to get up to around 21

And 0 TDs.  Kelce in 2 games vs the Bills..... he had 4 TDs.

Then why day effectively as Lavonte David?  He wasn't the deciding factor.   Bottom line was KCs oline was injured, and Bucs dline manhandled them.   Again, David is a very good player but not why Kelce scored 0 tds or why "David effectively" covered him.

 

If def line isn't the best player at 30, I'd look long and hard at a CB who can play man to man.  Mcdermott and Frazier are prone to play zone coverages, but when we did try going to man in the 2nd half, we got absolutely torched by Hill.  Need more speed in the secondary.  Our LBs are fine, JOK maybe would have been the choice if Milano wasn't resigned.  

 

But this has been asked in other threads, who is coming off the field?  Taron, Edmunds or Milano?  JOk isn't giving us substantial, if much,  "marginal" improvement over any of them