Evolution of the Bills' O-line

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I agree BADOLBILZ, I thought Antonio Williams really provided a spark and was running angry, something that we hadn't seen out of the backfield all season.  I was hoping he'd get some playing time in the playoffs but I don't remember him carrying the ball at all after the Miami game.

 

 

 

From the start I really didn't like having Antonio Williams even consuming a spot on the PS.........in college he was just a straight ahead runner with no wiggle/nuance to his game who didn't at all fit what the Bills did(successfully with Devin Singletary) in 2019.   But they changed their preferred run blocking style.......and the thing about running outside zone is you don't need agile, gifted backs.    They gotta' run hard and be decisive.   He does that.   

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Bills OL gets little push in run game.  Is anyone confident they can pick up a 3rd and 2 rushing the ball?  That said the optimal starting 5 did not play a single snap together last year.  Stay the course and they should be fine.  Beane has done a good job of upgrading the depth.  For the record I thought the Winters signing was good and advocated for him to get playing time, but i was wrong.  He was terrible in pass blocking.  Boettger is not that much better but Winters was so bad it looked like an upgrade.  

[billybrew1]

4 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Teams definitely keyed in on our inability to run in the playoffs.  Josh was under pressure a ton against Indy as well - only difference was he escaped almost every time they got close and Indy didn't employ the KC clutch/grab approach in the secondary against our banged up WR's.  

 

Josh masks some things, but if you watch OL play across the league... Our OL is absolutely top tier in pass pro.   Now, run blocking, we certainly need to figure that out.  ... A) so good teams can't tee off on Josh and B) because i am BEYOND sick of worrying about wind speed before every freakin home game.   

 

 

We had only one healthy receiver in the playoffs. That's why the fence collapsed. Do we need to run better? Yes, it will take our offense to a new level. Would that have made us the chefs? No f-fen way. We needed our WRs badly and our defense stunk up the joint.

So, we need to improve our WR depth (because we have old, small, WRs and the season is very long at 20 to 21 games.) and to really improve our nondescript defense.

 

 

[SCBills]

25 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

 

We had only one healthy receiver in the playoffs. That's why the fence collapsed. Do we need to run better? Yes, it will take our offense to a new level. Would that have made us the chefs? No f-fen way. We needed our WRs badly and our defense stunk up the joint.

So, we need to improve our WR depth (because we have old, small, WRs and the season is very long at 20 to 21 games.) and to really improve our nondescript defense.

 

 

Im all on board for any of Toney, Moore or Moore at 30 for that very reason, but we need to be able to have a change-up when the fastball isn’t working.... even if it just means throwing the change a couple times to make the fastball more effective.  
 

It would also help if Singletary could catch passes against KC.  
 

I just want to be able to run so I don’t have to stare at wind forecasts during the weeks of home games.   Luckily, McDermott is a monster at shutting down opposing offenses that become one-dimensional.... which high winds/weather provide. 
 

As far as defense goes, against KC, the game plans for both games were atrocious. We don’t have terrible personnel on defense, yet KC was able to slow bleed us Game 1 and gut us in the AFCCG unlike they were able to do to anyone all year.  
 

Something beyond talent needs to be addressed on that side of the ball this offseason. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I've defended the running backs plenty but to me it started out as almost entirely a blocking problem.......but the blocking got so inefficient and the RB's got so used to getting stoned at the LOS by an unblocked defender(s) that they eventually started anticipating being met at the LOS and stopped hitting the hole as hard.........compounding the issue.   You really can't be tentative running outside zone.  

 

We got a glimpse of it in the Miami game where Moss was tentative hitting the hole and left some yards on the table early in the game.........and then enter Antonio Williams hitting the hole hard like it's drawn up and some big plays followed.    Obviously the Dolphins had one foot out the door during that game but I think we still saw an example of how the impact of months of poor run blocking took it's toll on the individual effort of the RB's.

 

They gotta' clean that up.   I am sure they think adding the athletic Forrest Lamp at guard is a very good fit.   Obviously Breida is a proven 1-cut runner coming off a down year who projects nicely into the Bills system as well.

it is amazing what getting into a rhythm will do for both the line and the backs. Seemed like when the Bills

committed to the run last year, they ran the ball really well (SD, NE, Pitt, Mia games all come to Mind). I think we might see some more playcalling focus on that this year to take the pressure off Josh— we can still throw a ton but also commit to the run. That is what GB does. 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

it is amazing what getting into a rhythm will do for both the line and the backs. Seemed like when the Bills

committed to the run last year, they ran the ball really well (SD, NE, Pitt, Mia games all come to Mind). I think we might see some more playcalling focus on that this year to take the pressure off Josh— we can still throw a ton but also commit to the run. That is what GB does. 

 

They switched up their blocking scheme in-season to help streamline their passing game........and the OL talent they had wasn't really acquired for outside zone and not that experienced at it as a unit.    I think they will get better with experience in 2021........and maybe the Lamp/Breida adds will help their efficiency some......but I am not envisioning them becoming a top 10 rushing team.   Getting in a positive rhythm......as opposed to the handoff/hard tackle at LOS rhythm they were in much of last season would be great but I still think they should rightfully be pass heavy.........so they might have to find a way to be more productive without getting a lot more reps.

[scuba guy]

So isn't the colts o line that ranked 3rd by pff the same o line that blocked for a qb that quit the league, due to all the injuries lock has suffered over the years. And the same qb said the owner did not spend enough on the oline.

 

Just asking for a friend 

[Inigo Montoya]

4 minutes ago, scuba guy said:

So isn't the colts o line that ranked 3rd by pff the same o line that blocked for a qb that quit the league, due to all the injuries lock has suffered over the years. And the same qb said the owner did not spend enough on the oline.

 

Just asking for a friend 

 

Hey Scuba guy,

 

Tell your friend that, yes in fact, it is the same Indianapolis O-line that was bad for years but turned it around in 2018.  The Colts finally began to invest in the O-Line in 2018 after Luck got pounded for years and lost all of 2017 to a lingering shoulder injury.   In fact, when Luck came back and played in 2018, the Colts O-line gave up an NFL fewest sacks that season (18).  The Colts finished 10-6, made it to the Divisional round of the playoffs, and Luck threw for over 4,500 yards with 39 tds and only 15 INTs.   Luck and the O-line had a great year in 2018, hence the surprise when he retired at the end of the season. 

 

To quote PFF from 2018;

 

"We knew they’d be better, but I don’t think even the biggest Colts homer could have foreseen this coming. Drafting the highest-graded rookie guard though and the second-highest-graded rookie tackle will do that. Everyone and their mother predicted Quenton Nelson would be a stud, and he was as a second-team PFF All-Pro, but Braden Smith going from college guard to pro tackle was a wildcard. Fortunately, that card came up aces as Smith was PFF’s 25th-highest graded tackle on the season."

 

🍻

 

 

[njbuff]

The Bills might actually go with a power IOL with the 30th pick to deal with the Chris Jones' of the world.

 

Would this shock anyone?

 

If they pass on IOL early in the draft, they will really need Ford to stay healthy and be what they drafted him to be in 2019.

 

Chris Jones can't continue to be a major factor for the Chiefs if the Bills plan on beating them.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Leaving some critical data out in this analysis:

 

In 2018, Buffalo spent 11.38M to rank 30th in the NFL.  OL represented 6.03% of team cap dollars

That increased to 29.05M spent vaulting them to 12th and 14.5% of their cap.

In 2020, Bills OL spending increased to 36.25M to rank 3rd and was 16.4% of cap. 

 

Sure, some players like Dawkins who are homegrown received contract extensions and they should be credited for that.  But much of the rest of that OL is higher paid UFAs, which should provide better quality of play.  In 2020, I don't see them as having gotten their money's worth from the OL to spend what they did.

 

 

Plenty of teams spend a lot on FAs and then don't get better quality of play.

 

Plenty of other teams draft a new franchise savior QB, and should prioritize protecing him by spending a lot of resources, but don't.

 

Of course they should get credit for great improvement of the OL, whatever the means.

 

It's not like they spent too much on the OL so the rest of the team sucks.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, SCBills said:

Im all on board for any of Toney, Moore or Moore at 30 for that very reason, but we need to be able to have a change-up when the fastball isn’t working.... even if it just means throwing the change a couple times to make the fastball more effective.  
 

It would also help if Singletary could catch passes against KC.  
 

I just want to be able to run so I don’t have to stare at wind forecasts during the weeks of home games.   Luckily, McDermott is a monster at shutting down opposing offenses that become one-dimensional.... which high winds/weather provide. 
 

As far as defense goes, against KC, the game plans for both games were atrocious. We don’t have terrible personnel on defense, yet KC was able to slow bleed us Game 1 and gut us in the AFCCG unlike they were able to do to anyone all year.  
 

Something beyond talent needs to be addressed on that side of the ball this offseason. 

 

 

This was not the KC offense's best game, in yards, points or any other way. They certainly were better than us, but they were better than nearly everyone they played.

 

Both sides need to be addressed, but it really is talent that needs to be upgraded on D. They need a real pass rush and they need more speed in the defensive backfield. Maybe bring in someone to better handle a TE as well.

[BillsVet]

8 hours ago, Gambit said:

While Allen did indeed ascend to being our franchise QB. Would that have happened if our line didn't pass block extremely well? If Allen had the same ***** blocking he has had before this season, I'm not sure he would've done as well. With that said, I would have been okay if Feliciano wasn't paid. I just wanted Williams to be kept because we have had terrible luck finding a good RT. 

 

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Plenty of teams spend a lot on FAs and then don't get better quality of play.

 

Plenty of other teams draft a new franchise savior QB, and should prioritize protecing him by spending a lot of resources, but don't.

 

Of course they should get credit for great improvement of the OL, whatever the means.

 

It's not like they spent too much on the OL so the rest of the team sucks.

 

You guys passed Conflation 101.  Great job!

 

  

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

 

You guys passed Conflation 101.  Great job!

 

  

 

 

You're the professor for Introduction to Point-Missing, aren't you? Terrific job your ownself.

 

Nothing there was conflated. When you figure out what word you actually meant, you might try again.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Like most of the McBeane successes they failed first and then adjusted and done much better.

 

Beane tried to get by cheap with the OL in 2018........that whole free agent class they brought in was a disaster really..........and then had to throw the kitchen sink at the job to fix it in 2019.........and that lead to a lot of inefficiencies like over-drafting Cody Ford and having to overpay for Morse and a bunch of reserve quality OL in UFA.

 

I think they've honed down  the decision making now...........the initial Daryl Williams signing in 2020 was great value and the new deal looks good.......Feliciano deal looks reasonable for the quality of player.........the Forrest Lamp signing is potentially oustanding for the money as well.   

 

 

 

You're confusing, as you have a history of doing, the results of a complete rebuild with an initial failure and then a success.

 

Doing that is completely misunderstanding what happened.

 

Of course they sucked for a while early. That's what happens with a rebuild.

 

They didn't fail with the 2018 free agent class. They spent very little money and got what you would expect in that situation. They had a major success (Lotulelei, who has done just what they expected of him), a failure (Murphy), a bizarre and completely unpredictable roster void (Vontae David, who looked like a nice signing till he retired, costing us virtually nothing)  and a bunch of absolute bargain basement vet min types who were needed to fill roster holes when we didn't have money to fill them otherwise. They may well have hoped to find a diamond or two there but they knew most if not all were only cheap stopgaps who were unlikely to make the roster the next year (McCarron, Gaines, Kerley, Bodine, Bush, Stanford, Clay, Odighizuwa, Fede, Palepoi, etc. etc.) A few of those five-and-dime types performed quite well for what they were paid, Derek Anderson, Levi Wallace, McKenzie, Foster, Croom, Barkley, Boettger, Marlowe, Ryan Lewis, Jordan Phillips and Sirles for example. Bargains for the price.

 

When McDarmott and Beane arrived the team was mediocre, had some good players but no franchise QB and was a locker room filled with guys who did not fit the character they wanted or the scheme they were planning to use. Worse, it was a team that was close to the cap and had a lot of future cap money invested in poor contracts. The rebuild and the lousy cap shape they were in resulted in having very little money to commit to FAs that year.

 

When they had resources to spend the next year, the people they brought in were mostly successes.

[CSBill]

Our line is good, not great. The first place to upgrade is the interior. Here's hoping that with Ford now clearly penciled in as a Guard, that he embraces and excels there.