The end of excuses for defensive draft picks

[Ya Digg?]

2 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Edmunds is nowhere near a $15 mill player.  But Beane needs to decide whether Edmunds will make that jump this season to being that type of player in year 5.  I hope he becomes that if the Bills pick up the 5th year option.  But if I am the Bills I don't do it.  If he were on the Bills of yesteryear, he would not have seen the field on the Super Bowl era teams.  Or the teams of the late 90's when we had Sam Rogers, Sam Cowart John Holacek and Keith Newman.  All had more game then Edmunds.  I mean for you fans who remember the 90's era, is Edmunds even as good or better then say a Gabe Northern?  

Wait, you’re seriously saying he wouldn’t get on the field over Sam Rogers or John Holacek?? Yikes! Putting that aside doe just a second, you can’t compare older linebackers to now. Most linebackers from the 80’s and 90’s wouldn’t be able to play in today’s game-they weren’t fast enough or athletic enough. I understand that you’re voicing your displeasure about Edmunds and I love a good hyperbole too, just seems a bit too far out there 

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Edmunds is nowhere near a $15 mill player.  But Beane needs to decide whether Edmunds will make that jump this season to being that type of player in year 5.  I hope he becomes that if the Bills pick up the 5th year option.  But if I am the Bills I don't do it.  If he were on the Bills of yesteryear, he would not have seen the field on the Super Bowl era teams.  Or the teams of the late 90's when we had Sam Rogers, Sam Cowart John Holacek and Keith Newman.  All had more game then Edmunds.  I mean for you fans who remember the 90's era, is Edmunds even as good or better then say a Gabe Northern?  

You have to pay the option. it's going to be the proof to himself and Bills FO.  both will expect 15M a year type of play from him.

 Lets hope he comes through
and if he doesn't ? well all the questions were answered. The be No Reasons or Excuses.
 

To the OP ! No mores excuses for Tremaine.

 Oliver needs to play His natural tech/position to prove out. Only fair. Bills need to be sure Star plus his 1 tech pupil we draft to rotate in year one

 Question

 Do Bills draft Edmunds potential successor this year ? I think I know the answer , but thought it worth a ponder.

But i wish we had a run stoppin' gap crashin'  quick accurate reading bull of LB to play situational defense.

Maybe they like the red bearded guy

3 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

I don't disagree. The fact that we're still seeing the same talking points for Tremaine now that I noticed when he was a sophomore at VT is alarming. I don't think you can make excuses for poor reads when he's had 3 years of experience under what is talked up as one of the better developmental staffs in the league.

 

Harrison Phillips coming back from a major injury is a reason. ACL rehab is a B word, I've done it twice. I couldn't imagine getting shoved around by NFL linemen a year after my surgeries. A 3-tech not being as productive as you'd hope because he's having to masquerade as a space eater and having to play alongside people that struggle to complement him stylistically is a reason.

 

An offseason of rehab and Star coming back should fix those reasons. If not, they enter excuse territory.

Very well posted Bloke !

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm 100% with you, and it makes discussing him so difficult. 🤣

 

This... is actually a really good point.

except , I think the carrots needs dangling for these guys. Time is wasting
Badol has a fair point too, If that how Bills played their hand ? I would not harbor concerns about the decision.

I hope we get a few quips from folks about my Question.
What should bills do at LB if they do decide to move on. Gotta think ahead on each of these players. as Blokes mentioned
Next season is important to the Bills and these players OP mentioned . Good question OP.
ps 

 I am still very Pro Beanes Team . College and Pro scouting is best we have had since Whaley ( jk)

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, SirAndrew said:

The entire Epenesa situation feels like the old square peg in a round hole deal. Our front office is incredible, but that doesn’t mean we can’t question things. I’ve always been very confused trying to understand what they want from Epenesa. I think people on this board underestimate how much he’ll need to overcome to become a good NFL player. The guy needs to learn more than the average young player. He needs to learn the NFL game AND how to play the game in his new frame, along with a new position. That’s a lot to ask from someone. 

Not sure I agree. He was too fat and slow to play NFL DE.  Not big enough to play DT.  The modern NFL 4-3 DE doesn't look like Reggie White anymore, They are tall and lean.  If he is fast enough to play DE then dropping weight makes sense.  If he isn't fast enough to rush the passer, then it was a wasted pick.  

[Max Fischer]

5 hours ago, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

This is poor excuse for analysis. The reason seems to be a thirst for clicks. 

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, SirAndrew said:

The entire Epenesa situation feels like the old square peg in a round hole deal. Our front office is incredible, but that doesn’t mean we can’t question things. I’ve always been very confused trying to understand what they want from Epenesa. I think people on this board underestimate how much he’ll need to overcome to become a good NFL player. The guy needs to learn more than the average young player. He needs to learn the NFL game AND how to play the game in his new frame, along with a new position. That’s a lot to ask from someone. 

They do this square peg round hole thing a LOT and it irritates me.  Edmunds, OLB, not MLB. Ed Oliver, 3tech, not 1 tech.  Epenesa, power rusher, make him lose all the weight and try to make him a speed guy.  TE’s in general, holy hell it’s like they have no clue.
 

The whole regime would be getting fired if it weren’t for hitting on Allen/Diggs.  Literally , those moves saved the franchise. 

[SirAndrew]

57 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Not sure I agree. He was too fat and slow to play NFL DE.  Not big enough to play DT.  The modern NFL 4-3 DE doesn't look like Reggie White anymore, They are tall and lean.  If he is fast enough to play DE then dropping weight makes sense.  If he isn't fast enough to rush the passer, then it was a wasted pick.  

Those are all fair points that I agree with. You made a great point about Reggie White type players. It’s understandable what they want Epenesa to be, it just worries me to ask that much from a young player. A second draft choice is a big investment in someone you want to completely change. It’s like getting married with the expectation the person completely changes themselves after the wedding. Why didn’t they just go after someone who fit what they wanted ? 

51 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

They do this square peg round hole thing a LOT and it irritates me.  Edmunds, OLB, not MLB. Ed Oliver, 3tech, not 1 tech.  Epenesa, power rusher, make him lose all the weight and try to make him a speed guy.  TE’s in general, holy hell it’s like they have no clue.
 

The whole regime would be getting fired if it weren’t for hitting on Allen/Diggs.  Literally , those moves saved the franchise. 

Apart from the TE situation, I think this regime has been great with the offense. I’m not sure what they’re trying to build on defense. I still believe that McD is a phenomenal defensive coach. I’d love to see what he could do with less awkward fits on defense. 

[1ManRaid]

Imagine if even a couple of these players have "3rd year Josh Allen" style breakout seasons.  That launches us to a Super Bowl. 

 

At this point I'd even settle for "2nd year Josh Allen" improvements.

[dpberr]

3 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

The entire Epenesa situation feels like the old square peg in a round hole deal. Our front office is incredible, but that doesn’t mean we can’t question things. I’ve always been very confused trying to understand what they want from Epenesa. I think people on this board underestimate how much he’ll need to overcome to become a good NFL player. The guy needs to learn more than the average young player. He needs to learn the NFL game AND how to play the game in his new frame, along with a new position. That’s a lot to ask from someone. 

I agree.  This sort of thing is risky because you're asking the player to do X, Y and Z and also produce results that justify the 1st round selection.  

 

I'd understand if he was one of those players who did a little DE/LB throughout his college career ala Brian Urlacher (who often played FS and LB in games during his college career) but he wasn't from what I can tell. 

 

  

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

They built a good offensive line as well.... but I said it all season. Allen basically carried the team to a 13 win season. It's a solid but not spectacular roster surrounded by an elite QB. They need more elite players like him. 

I agree, the OL isn’t great either though and the money committed at this point is concerning.  Look at the contracts and you expect to see Dallas 3 years ago, not the unable to run the ball and pretty good at pass blocking that we watched last year.   They again are looking for the square peg to fill the RG position IMO.  Ford needs to come back and be a road grader at G to get the run game going or we are watching the same ***** over again.   This Bills will end up being Green Bay East, always in contention because of the QB, but always just short because they can’t put a whole team together.  It’s a better purgatory, but not the one you want.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

They do this square peg round hole thing a LOT and it irritates me.  Edmunds, OLB, not MLB. Ed Oliver, 3tech, not 1 tech.  Epenesa, power rusher, make him lose all the weight and try to make him a speed guy.  TE’s in general, holy hell it’s like they have no clue.
 

The whole regime would be getting fired if it weren’t for hitting on Allen/Diggs.  Literally , those moves saved the franchise. 

Sorry to upset your narrative but Tre White and Matt Milano were good picks. Darryl Williams was a great signing. Tyler Bass looks like a stud.  

The whole regime would be getting fired if they weren't making the playoffs 3 out of 4 years. 

 

[Richard Noggin]

6 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

I will be such a happy man when people can differentiate between an excuse and a reason.

Don't hold yer breath

[DCofNC]

17 minutes ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

Sorry to upset your narrative but Tre White and Matt Milano were good picks. Darryl Williams was a great signing. Tyler Bass looks like a stud.  

The whole regime would be getting fired if they weren't making the playoffs 3 out of 4 years. 

 

White was not a Beane pick and that could have been Maholmes, so let’s take a look at that.  Signing a RT, drafting a starting LB and a kicker would not save your job.  
 

If they hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with Allen, they are already out the door.  Ask Mitch Turbiski how things went in Chicago after his failed third year.  The Bills were that close to being in the same spot.  Luckily, Allen turned the corner, Mitch didn’t.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by DCofNC

[SCBills]

6 hours ago, skibum said:

You forgot the one about Epenesa losing so much weight he no longer knows how to use his body or play football. 

Dude was billed as this strong and violent, albeit bulky and lumbering DE... instead we got a guy on a low carb diet chasing down Kyler Murray.  
 

No idea what to make of him.  
 

Edited April 20, 2021 by SCBills

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Playoff Win said:

This past season a number of drafted players on defense didn’t perform up to expectations. 
 

Ed Oliver. Excuse: was playing out of position at one tech.

Harrison Phillips. Excuse: was recovering from injury. 
Tremaine Edmunds. Excuse #1: was compensating for bad DL play. Excuse #2: was too young.

A.J. Epenesa. Excuse: was a rookie. 
 

Most of the above excuses are pretty solid. That said, they all go away this season. By the end of the year we should know what we have or don’t have with all four players. 

 

 

This is mostly overstated.

 

Once healthy, Edmunds and Oliver played really well.

 

Epenesa once he began to get it, really started to play pretty well.

 

Those three played up to expectations

 

Phillips too, though it's fairer to question his season. I'd say he lived up to expectations, in that reasonable expectations did indeed factor in the fact that his injury does take time to recover from.

 

Having said that, all need to step up this season, as does every player, really. That's the nature of pro football in the growth phase that comes at the beginning of careers till you reach career middle age.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

16 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

White was not a Beane pick and that could have been Maholmes, so let’s take a look at that.  Signing a RT, drafting a starting LB and a kicker would not save your job.  
 

If they hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with Allen, they are already out the door.  Ask Mitch Turbiski how things went in Chicago after his failed third year.  The Bills were that close to being in the same spot.  Luckily, Allen turned the corner, Mitch didn’t.  

 

 

This is absolute nonsense.

 

They're one of the better drafting teams over the past four years, as various league-wide surveys have established. Here's one:

 

https://twitter.com/Colts/status/1367876148793913345/photo/1

 

The Allen pick isn't luck. Or at least not more luck than any pick successful pick. It was a terrific pick. Calling it lucky shows more about how desperately you're trying to spin things than it does about the pick. Picking Allen was an excellent move, and they get full credit for it.

 

And even if you leave Allen out of it, the whole roster has gotten much better, much more consistent, better depth, and more talent.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thurman#1

[K-9]

37 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

White was not a Beane pick and that could have been Maholmes, so let’s take a look at that.  Signing a RT, drafting a starting LB and a kicker would not save your job.  
 

If they hadn’t gotten lucky as hell with Allen, they are already out the door.  Ask Mitch Turbiski how things went in Chicago after his failed third year.  The Bills were that close to being in the same spot.  Luckily, Allen turned the corner, Mitch didn’t.  

There was nothing “lucky” about it. They targeted Allen early on in the process and set about acquiring the necessary draft capital to acquire him, maneuvering from their original 21st pick overall to pick 7 in order to select him. That’s not luck, that’s a targeted strategy to acquire the player you want. 
 

If you mean they got lucky because Allen turned out to be worth the investment, then so does every team whose draft picks pan out. It’s not an exact science to say the least and no draft pick is a guarantee to develop into a star player. Far from it. 

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, DCofNC said:

No, it’s an easy decision, he’s not getting that.

 

 

Which is one of many many reasons why you're not an NFL GM. It's certainly not a sure thing, but he is indeed quite likely to get the 5th year option. They like him, and for good reason.

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Good OP!

As for Edmunds he played terribly against Baltimore and KC when he was supposedly fully healed. I am rooting for him because if he was truly a ProBowl level player he can anchor the defense for another 5-7 years. 

I just have not seen it. I have been critical of him for a while now.  To be fair I watched a 2020 highlight film and he did have a real nice goal line stop on a running play last year. I think it was San Fran or Denver game( I missed them both). Other than that I don't recall any significant plays he made all year.

Oliver has flashed. DTs take time to develop. Still think he can be a 8-10 sack guy from the interior.

Epenesa also flashed.

Harrison is just not good enough. He was a penetrating DT at Stanford not a guy that took on double teams. He may be a training camp cut if they draft 1-tech DT.

 

 

Edmunds played quite well against Baltimore. 9 tackles, 2 QB hits and a pass defensed, but it was fairly obvious to people who watched the film.

 

Just as one example, Buscaglia had him with a B+, the 7th best player on the team in that game.

 

https://theathletic.com/2335118/2021/01/20/bills-ravens-josh-allen-dion-dawkins-matt-milano/

 

He played poorly against KC, no question. But how many LBs playing in zone coverage against Pat Mahomes when he's getting a ton of time to throw have played all that well?

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thurman#1

[just1hugheser]

13 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

I will be such a happy man when people can differentiate between an excuse and a reason.

 

Isn't it based on a combinaiton of circumstances, time, and subjective opinion?

Edited April 20, 2021 by just1hugheser