New Car Purchase Help (Update Purchased!)

[That's No Moon]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:02 PM, Augie said:

My wife used to do business with a VERY large car dealer. He told her he’ll give the new cars away because he makes all of his money on the used cars (and he makes A LOT of money!). 

Because they murder people on trade-ins.  People go in focused on the price of the new car they want not the value of what they drove in.  They'll go to the mat for $500 on the new car and then get hammered for $4,000 on the trade without blinking an eye.

 

When thinking about what to offer for a used car look at Kelly Blue Book to see roughly what dealerships are offering for that car in trade-in value.  You'll get a range.  I use the median of that range as a base price for what I assume they paid for the car then offer $1,000 over that.  For example, If KBB says they pay 13k in trade FOR the car then I'd offer them 14k to BUY the car.  They may have paid a little more than average, they may have paid a little less, but they throw blue book value around when it suits them and the dealers have the right to make a little money. They certainly aren't paying MORE than what KBB says in trade because you know they'd come show the customer that and tell them they cant do the deal. If they aren't making money in the deal you won't get the deal, it's that simple.  The idea is to minimize their margin, you're never going to eliminate it and you're never really going to know what it is on a given car so you have to work in aggregate.  I got my last car for 30% off the sticker and all it took me was 2 emails and knowing some information.  Could I have done better?  Maybe.  I'll never know what they actually paid for the car to the penny but I think I got at least reasonably close.  I don't feel like I got skinned though and that's all you're trying to do.

 

You can also see how they got the car.  The Carfax shows the transaction records when the car was bought and sold.  If it came from out of state somewhere (especially far away) just before the dealership owned it they got it at auction which means it was even less than KBB more than likely.  If it was an auction car I offer less than normal because I know there is more room.  The Carfax will also show you how long they've had the car.  It shows you transaction record, when and where a car was sold.  You want it to have been on that dealer's lot as long as possible.  The longer the better.  If they've had a car longer than a month they want it gone, 45 days they want it gone real bad, 60 days and they hate looking at it anymore. Those are the cars you want to buy. They will be cheaper because the dealer is more motivated to get its money out of it and bring in fresh inventory. If you look at a car and they've had it 3 days you aren't going to get a lot of price movement.  53 days?  Big difference.

 

 

[Chef Jim]

On 4/18/2021 at 4:37 AM, Gugny said:

 

You're not going to get away from doc fees.  And if you find a place that has little-to-no doc fees, they're getting it from you in some other clever way.

 

Car dealers, new and used, are among the scummiest people on earth.

 

The onus is on the consumer to do the homework.  

 

If you're buying new, the price is going to be the same wherever you go.  

 

Decide the make/model you want.  Test drive it at the nearest dealership to make sure you want it.  Call the dealership you want to work with.  Give him your information over the phone so he can run your credit, etc.  Go in an pick up your car in the next day or two.  That will have you in the dealership for less than an hour.

 

So if the onus is on the buyer what makes the salesmen the scummiest people on earth?  Have some balls gentlemen.  Just say no!  It's funny but I was just about to say "never go to a dealer when you need a car but when you want one."  The car I drive now is the best car I've ever had, got a great price, told the guy NO on several packages he pushed and this all because I needed a car.  Mine other car was totaled.  I still stick by that tip but I didn't follow it.  I had no choice.  

[Gugny]

10 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

So if the onus is on the buyer what makes the salesmen the scummiest people on earth?  Have some balls gentlemen.  Just say no!  It's funny but I was just about to say "never go to a dealer when you need a car but when you want one."  The car I drive now is the best car I've ever had, got a great price, told the guy NO on several packages he pushed and this all because I needed a car.  Mine other car was totaled.  I still stick by that tip but I didn't follow it.  I had no choice.  

 

I was referring to the owners; not the salesmen.  But I definitely wasn't clear.

 

My point is similar to what I think yours is.  Do your homework.  Be prepared.  Know several places' prices.  And - like you said - if they don't give you what you want for the $$$ you're willing to spend, just walk away.

[sherpa]

Don't want to be a wet blanket here, but just to provide some perspective.

 

Regarding used cars, you can do all the research you want, and that is a good idea, but you don't know what you don't know.

 

My son was a buyer for a nationally recognized company. He bought hundred of vehicles per month.

Kelly Blue Book is over rated. They have little regional relevance, and that matters.

Carfax is overrated. They report what is reported to them, and that isn't always the full story.

 

If you have someone who is skilled at inspecting a used car, you can do well.

 

You can really do well if there is some hiccup in the title or mileage validity. Many times completely innocent, but effects price dramatically.

 

[Chef Jim]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I was referring to the owners; not the salesmen.  But I definitely wasn't clear.

 

My point is similar to what I think yours is.  Do your homework.  Be prepared.  Know several places' prices.  And - like you said - if they don't give you what you want for the $$$ you're willing to spend, just walk away.

No you were clear.  You said dealers.  I just immediately thought salespeople.  

[That's No Moon]

54 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Don't want to be a wet blanket here, but just to provide some perspective.

 

Regarding used cars, you can do all the research you want, and that is a good idea, but you don't know what you don't know.

 

My son was a buyer for a nationally recognized company. He bought hundred of vehicles per month.

Kelly Blue Book is over rated. They have little regional relevance, and that matters.

Carfax is overrated. They report what is reported to them, and that isn't always the full story.

 

If you have someone who is skilled at inspecting a used car, you can do well.

 

You can really do well if there is some hiccup in the title or mileage validity. Many times completely innocent, but effects price dramatically.

 

All of this is exactly correct. You buy a car once every couple years. These guys spend their lives doing it. They are going to be better at it than you. That's just reality. You aren't going to win. You can't win. You can just do the best you can to limit the damage. You are welcome to go in and pay sticker. They won't argue with you.

[sherpa]

17 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

All of this is exactly correct. You buy a car once every couple years. These guys spend their lives doing it. They are going to be better at it than you. That's just reality. You aren't going to win. You can't win. You can just do the best you can to limit the damage. You are welcome to go in and pay sticker. They won't argue with you.

 

It's really not a competition. They are going to do what they need to to make a profit.

As I mentioned, my son was a buyer for a very large national firm.

He was also one of the guys that did the appraisals and made offers for trade ins.

There are a lot of peculiarities which retail purchasers don't understand, like seemingly odd values for certain cars.

As a couple examples, the Mini Cooper has virtually no resale value.

Same with sticks, although the Hispanic folks jump all over them because they're so much cheaper.

On the other hand, a Highlander commands a premium. I got an unusually high offer for my old one that had 155k and a small oil leak that wasn't worth fixing.  They ship them to the Middle East and get a huge premium for them.

 

Regarding Carfax, unfortunately some incidents are never reported to them. He would inspect a vehicle prior to making an offer and often found things that weren't reported, ie frame damage. They can try to hide the welds and you need to know where to look, but that has a huge impact on value. 

Same goes for certain issues like timing belts. If it's approaching the mileage where one is to be replaced, that has a significant impact.

[qwksilver]

Update. I spoke with the Auto Broker and he said the car I want is in high demand and he couldn't do much better than dealers.  So I then began bitching to a buddy of mine who called the broker and he's getting a new Acura ILX under invoice. I'm sure the the broker made a few hundred on that deal but well worth it.

 

I will go back to the drawing board. There is a local car in the wrong color with out the options so we'll see if they want to sell it... Its a Challenger.

Edited April 21, 2021 by qwksilver

[Steptide]

17 minutes ago, qwksilver said:

Update. I spoke with the Auto Broker and he said the car I want is in high demand and he couldn't do much better than dealers.  So I then began bitching to a buddy of mine who called the broker and he's getting a new Acura ILX under invoice. I'm sure the the broker made a few hundred on that deal but well worth it.

 

I will go back to the drawing board. There is a local car in the wrong color with out the options so we'll see if they want to sell it... Its a Challenger.

Are you dead set on a new vehicle? Are you opposed to leasing? I was anti lease for a long time until I started doing it and now I enjoy a new car every 3 years. 

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, Steptide said:

Are you dead set on a new vehicle? Are you opposed to leasing? I was anti lease for a long time until I started doing it and now I enjoy a new car every 3 years. 

 

I used to lease and loved it.  Life changes and now I've got a 120 mile/day commute, so no more leasing.  I just paid off a new car for the first time in my life and am financing another one, now.  That does feel good to have equity.  But I did enjoy the peace of mind with the warranty of a lease and miss that.

 

Now, my warranty is up in just a bit over a year because I put ~33,000 miles/year on my car.

[qwksilver]

26 minutes ago, Steptide said:

Are you dead set on a new vehicle? Are you opposed to leasing? I was anti lease for a long time until I started doing it and now I enjoy a new car every 3 years. 

I've leased in the past. I prefer to own that way I build some equity. If you buy the right vehicle at the right price the depreciation curve will not "kill you" and it can be cheaper than leasing. Last 2 cars:

New car Paid 30k and sold it for 21k after 40 months = $225 per month

Used car Paid 26k sold it for 24.9 after 16 months = $61 per month

 

No car = 0 per month 😁

Edited April 21, 2021 by qwksilver

[Nextmanup]

3 hours ago, Steptide said:

Are you dead set on a new vehicle? Are you opposed to leasing? I was anti lease for a long time until I started doing it and now I enjoy a new car every 3 years. 

There are always exceptions, and some cars lease *much better* than others.

 

But as a general rule, leasing is the most expensive way to own a car. 

 

The upside is that you are constantly driving around in a new or nearly-new car, never have to worry about maintenance (everything is always under warranty), and you get the pleasure of experiencing a ton of new cars before you die.

 

It's really a question of what your priorities are.

 

 

 

 

 

[707BillsFan]

On 4/17/2021 at 1:06 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is probably an antiquated practice. But I emailed all the area Honda dealers and told them exactly What I was looking for and got price quotes. Then I just went with the best price. They Will still get you on the trade in. But that eliminates the haggling and pressure sales. 

 

I did the exact same thing for my last car. I found a website that had a forum showing what people paid for the vehicle I was looking for (Subaru Outback) and the dealerships they purchased from. I emailed those two dealerships offering excellent pricing and several others in Northern California. Nobody could come near their pricing (1000's less than dealer price...somehow). I then went to my broker friend, who I used to buy my prior cars. He didn't believe the price I was quoted, told me to send him the offer I received. He told me he couldn't find anything near those prices and to buy from them. I was really hoping he wouldn't say that...I hate dealing w/ dealerships & salesmen. Needless to say, I bit the bullet and bought from the dealership. Horrible experience, but I got a screaming deal. They were expecting me to buy all the additional BS they try and sell. I declined everything and the guy just yelled at me, saying why didn't I want to properly care for my new car. 

 

I did try this w/ another brand of vehicle I was considering. My local dealership refused to give me a quote and we went back and forth via email. Their loss. 

 

Long story short, I think it does pay off going this route...if the dealership is a willing partner. 

[qwksilver]

5 hours ago, 707BillsFan said:

 

I did the exact same thing for my last car. I found a website that had a forum showing what people paid for the vehicle I was looking for (Subaru Outback) and the dealerships they purchased from. I emailed those two dealerships offering excellent pricing and several others in Northern California. Nobody could come near their pricing (1000's less than dealer price...somehow). I then went to my broker friend, who I used to buy my prior cars. He didn't believe the price I was quoted, told me to send him the offer I received. He told me he couldn't find anything near those prices and to buy from them. I was really hoping he wouldn't say that...I hate dealing w/ dealerships & salesmen. Needless to say, I bit the bullet and bought from the dealership. Horrible experience, but I got a screaming deal. They were expecting me to buy all the additional BS they try and sell. I declined everything and the guy just yelled at me, saying why didn't I want to properly care for my new car. 

 

I did try this w/ another brand of vehicle I was considering. My local dealership refused to give me a quote and we went back and forth via email. Their loss. 

 

Long story short, I think it does pay off going this route...if the dealership is a willing partner. 

Agreed that you have to find a dealer that is willing to make a little less and make it up on volume. With the world coming out of covid and all the free government cash, I feel there are less of these dealers. Fingers crossed I'm wrong. My broker hinted that this could be an issue. Similar to a housing bubble, you make a nice profit when you sell, but good luck finding a new one....

Edited April 22, 2021 by qwksilver

[LewPort71]

I dont know it is in your neck of the woods, but used car lots here in SWV are ghost towns.  The Toyota dealership used to have 30-40 used vehicles

on the lot.  Today there were 4 when I drove by.  A "mom & pop"  used car place has 8 when they usually have 25-30 used vehicles.

 

As far as leasing goes, Now that Mrs. Lew and I are retired our work driving mileage has gone from a combined 800 miles per week to

less than 80 miles per week.  The mileage factor was the key blockage to us ever leasing a vehicle. Now I would consider it.

 

Good luck to the OP.  As one poster indicated, it really helps to do your homework.  I collected data for 2 months before I bought the Outback in 2018.

 

[Steptide]

On 4/21/2021 at 3:22 PM, Nextmanup said:

There are always exceptions, and some cars lease *much better* than others.

 

But as a general rule, leasing is the most expensive way to own a car. 

 

The upside is that you are constantly driving around in a new or nearly-new car, never have to worry about maintenance (everything is always under warranty), and you get the pleasure of experiencing a ton of new cars before you die.

 

It's really a question of what your priorities are.

 

 

 

 

 

This is true. Leasing is definitely not for everyone, and I agree that leasing in general is a bad investment. Like you said, it depends on priorities. Leasing is kind of a guilty pleasure. Some people gamble, spend tons on liquor, run up their credit cards etc. Leasing for me is my guilty pleasure as crazy as that sounds. I'm not a big drinker, don't gamble, don't really do much, so I actually enjoy reading and keeping up on new cars, and then when lease time comes around, I feel that I'm pretty well educated. Dang, I got old

[Augie]

35 minutes ago, Steptide said:

This is true. Leasing is definitely not for everyone, and I agree that leasing in general is a bad investment. Like you said, it depends on priorities. Leasing is kind of a guilty pleasure. Some people gamble, spend tons on liquor, run up their credit cards etc. Leasing for me is my guilty pleasure as crazy as that sounds. I'm not a big drinker, don't gamble, don't really do much, so I actually enjoy reading and keeping up on new cars, and then when lease time comes around, I feel that I'm pretty well educated. Dang, I got old

 

I worked with a guy who leased a nice Mercedes. He was putting too many miles on and realized it was cheaper to ALSO lease a Camry to cut down on  the Benz miles.  Not sounding like a great deal!  LOL

 

My SIL has a long time BF who is fairly frugal about most things. Smart guy, but he LOVES his cars. My BIL was with him a couple weeks ago for the niece’s wedding (I didn’t make the cut for mini-wedding in PA due to restrictions, fine with me). The BIL wanted to take his self driving BMW out for a ride. BIL said it was so smooth he wanted to feel it at a higher speeds. Was told it has built in radar detection, go as fast as you want. On a quiet stretch of highway he took it up to 102 mph - with no hands!  THAT would freak me out! 

[qwksilver]

20 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I worked with a guy who leased a nice Mercedes. He was putting too many miles on and realized it was cheaper to ALSO lease a Camry to cut down on  the Benz miles.  Not sounding like a great deal!  LOL

 

My SIL has a long time BF who is fairly frugal about most things. Smart guy, but he LOVES his cars. My BIL was with him a couple weeks ago for the niece’s wedding (I didn’t make the cut for mini-wedding in PA due to restrictions, fine with me). The BIL wanted to take his self driving BMW out for a ride. BIL said it was so smooth he wanted to feel it at a higher speeds. Was told it has built in radar detection, go as fast as you want. On a quiet stretch of highway he took it up to 102 mph - with no hands!  THAT would freak me out! 

I'm a big believer in that we humans rely on computers/tech for just about everything. Driving might be the last thing I give up to a chip.

 

Update my good friend (using an auto broker) got his new ILX delivered to his front door, $1400 under sticker and he never talked to this dealer.

[LeviF]

New car dealers are moving more and more towards the "store" model.  There are some holdouts still but many will not negotiate the sticker on the car without you sticking a competing offer in their face.  Trading in sucks for the reasons already noted upthread.  If you're buying a new car your best bet is to just find out exactly (down to the color, trim, extras) what you want and then look for that car specifically.  Then find the best deal and see if other dealers will beat it.  Rinse and repeat until you get a bunch of "no" then pull the trigger.  The brokers essentially do this for you but they have the connections and pull to fast-track the process.

 

There's more wiggle room with used cars because, also as noted upthread, they absolutely murder people on the trade-ins.  I got my CPO Impala, that was advertised at $17k, out the door for $14.5k because it had been sitting on the lot for nearly a month and I was willing to drive 300 miles for a better deal if necessary.

[zevo]

19 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

New car dealers are moving more and more towards the "store" model.  There are some holdouts still but many will not negotiate the sticker on the car without you sticking a competing offer in their face.  Trading in sucks for the reasons already noted upthread.  If you're buying a new car your best bet is to just find out exactly (down to the color, trim, extras) what you want and then look for that car specifically.  Then find the best deal and see if other dealers will beat it.  Rinse and repeat until you get a bunch of "no" then pull the trigger.  The brokers essentially do this for you but they have the connections and pull to fast-track the process.

 

There's more wiggle room with used cars because, also as noted upthread, they absolutely murder people on the trade-ins.  I got my CPO Impala, that was advertised at $17k, out the door for $14.5k because it had been sitting on the lot for nearly a month and I was willing to drive 300 miles for a better deal if necessary.

Depends on what you own. I purchased a new 2019 4 runner pro at the end of 2019. I traded it in last month and received 1800$ more than i paid for it.