All_Pro_Bills Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: I would agree that would be a good topic but I was intentionally driving the conversation towards politics and was just trying to ensure no one got too butt hurt. I tried to stay with facts and while my general opinions but the MSM one actually surprised me. Good enough. I was in a July 4th ruling a Federal judge presiding over a case detailing government/social media censorship has issued a temporary injuction agiant Biden administration specific individuals and agencies prohibiting them from contacting social media companies and their employees. On queue, NYT reports the move endangers effort to fight the ever present danger of misinformation. But like Bill Maher said, just give me the facts and leave your opinion where it belongs on the Op/Ed page, and I'll decide for myself what is misinformation. Edited July 5, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Good enough. I was in a July 4th ruling a Federal judge presiding over a case detailing government/social media censorship has issued a temporary injuction agiant Biden administration specific individuals and agencies prohibiting them from contacting social media companies and their employees. On queue, NYT reports the move endangers effort to fight the ever present danger of misinformation. But like Bill Maher said, just give me the facts and leave your opinion where it belongs on the Op/Ed page, and I'll decide for myself what is misinformation. I’ve been saying it for years. When you listen to the news, don’t listen for the nouns and verbs, just listen for the adjectives. It’s there you’ll find the ‘all in’ bias of the so-called main stream media. 1 2
The Frankish Reich Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 (edited) Why Industrial Policy Is Always a Bad Idea, Exhibit 10,000: https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-tesla-buffalo-new-york-solar-plant-1b634b9e?mod=wknd_pos1 New York state paid to build a quarter-mile-long facility with 1.2 million square feet of industrial space, which it now owns and leases to Tesla TSLA -2.54%decrease; red down pointing triangle for $1 a year. It bought $240 million worth of solar-panel manufacturing equipment. Musk had said that by 2020 the Buffalo plant each week would churn out enough solar-panel shingles to cover 1,000 roofs. The Tesla solar-energy unit behind the plan, however, is averaging just 21 installations a week, according to energy analysts at Wood Mackenzie who reviewed utility data. The building houses some factory workers, but also hundreds of lower-paid desk-bound data analysts working on other Tesla business. The suppliers that Cuomo predicted would flock to a modern manufacturing hub never showed up. The only new nearby business is a Tim Horton’s coffee shop. Most of the solar-panel manufacturing equipment bought by the state has been sold at a discount or scrapped. A state comptroller’s audit found just 54 cents of economic benefit for every subsidy dollar spent on the factory, which rose on the site of an old steel mill. External auditors have written down nearly all of New York’s investment. “It was a bad deal,” said state Sen. Sean Ryan, a Democrat who represents Buffalo. “A cautionary tale is you can’t give governors too much power to get on the phone with egotistical billionaires.” Governments are notoriously bad at picking winners and losers. Whether it's Solyndra (a Democrat-driven bad deal), or whether it's Wisconsin's hare-brained Foxconn debacle (a Republican bad deal), these things are usually colossal fails. Remember that the next time a politician comes around promising huge economic benefits through government sponsorship/funding of private enterprise. The market will choose winners and losers, not some politicians looking for votes. Edited July 6, 2023 by The Frankish Reich
Doc Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: Why Industrial Policy Is Always a Bad Idea, Exhibit 10,000: https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-tesla-buffalo-new-york-solar-plant-1b634b9e?mod=wknd_pos1 New York state paid to build a quarter-mile-long facility with 1.2 million square feet of industrial space, which it now owns and leases to Tesla TSLA -2.54%decrease; red down pointing triangle for $1 a year. It bought $240 million worth of solar-panel manufacturing equipment. Musk had said that by 2020 the Buffalo plant each week would churn out enough solar-panel shingles to cover 1,000 roofs. The Tesla solar-energy unit behind the plan, however, is averaging just 21 installations a week, according to energy analysts at Wood Mackenzie who reviewed utility data. The building houses some factory workers, but also hundreds of lower-paid desk-bound data analysts working on other Tesla business. The suppliers that Cuomo predicted would flock to a modern manufacturing hub never showed up. The only new nearby business is a Tim Horton’s coffee shop. Most of the solar-panel manufacturing equipment bought by the state has been sold at a discount or scrapped. A state comptroller’s audit found just 54 cents of economic benefit for every subsidy dollar spent on the factory, which rose on the site of an old steel mill. External auditors have written down nearly all of New York’s investment. “It was a bad deal,” said state Sen. Sean Ryan, a Democrat who represents Buffalo. “A cautionary tale is you can’t give governors too much power to get on the phone with egotistical billionaires.” Governments are notoriously bad at picking winners and losers. Whether it's Solyndra (a Democrat-driven bad deal), or whether it's Wisconsin's hare-brained Foxconn debacle (a Republican bad deal), these things are usually colossal fails. Remember that the next time a politician comes around promising huge economic benefits through government sponsorship/funding of private enterprise. The market will choose winners and losers, not some politicians looking for votes. Isn't Foxconn still investing almost $700M in Wisconsin?
The Frankish Reich Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 6 minutes ago, Doc said: Isn't Foxconn still investing almost $700M in Wisconsin? https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/2023/03/23/what-we-know-about-foxconn-in-wisconsin-and-how-we-got-there/70037738007/ It's a mixed bag. Yes, Foxconn still spends money in Wisconsin. But the bottom line: it is a fraction of what Scott Walker promised. Quite a bit has changed in five years. Employment is a fraction of the initial promise and its unclear what is being manufactured at the site. The facility has changed from a Generation 10.5 to a Generation 6 which normally makes screens for phones, tablets and TVs. But so far, no screens have been made. The incentive package has also changed. It’s been estimated that more than a billion dollars of taxpayer money has gone toward supporting the deal but in 2021, the Wisconsin Economic Development Corp. approved a much smaller package. The tax credits went down from $2.85 billion to $80 million. The job goal number is also down from 13,000 statewide to 1,454. The capital investment has also gone down from $10 billion to $672.8 million.
Doc Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/2023/03/23/what-we-know-about-foxconn-in-wisconsin-and-how-we-got-there/70037738007/ It's a mixed bag. Yes, Foxconn still spends money in Wisconsin. But the bottom line: it is a fraction of what Scott Walker promised. Quite a bit has changed in five years. Employment is a fraction of the initial promise and its unclear what is being manufactured at the site. The facility has changed from a Generation 10.5 to a Generation 6 which normally makes screens for phones, tablets and TVs. But so far, no screens have been made. The incentive package has also changed. It’s been estimated that more than a billion dollars of taxpayer money has gone toward supporting the deal but in 2021, the Wisconsin Economic Development Corp. approved a much smaller package. The tax credits went down from $2.85 billion to $80 million. The job goal number is also down from 13,000 statewide to 1,454. The capital investment has also gone down from $10 billion to $672.8 million. Walker can't force Foxconn to spend money. Getting anything was good considering what Wuhan virus did to the world.
The Frankish Reich Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Doc said: Walker can't force Foxconn to spend money. Getting anything was good considering what Wuhan virus did to the world. My point is this: "industrial policy" is usually the opposite of free market policy. And in a lot of these cases - Tesla in Buffalo, Foxconn in Wisconsin - we see nothing more than the socialization of losses. The government that "invests" (providing state money and incentives) is often left holding the bag. I thought socialism was a bad thing.
Doc Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: My point is this: "industrial policy" is usually the opposite of free market policy. And in a lot of these cases - Tesla in Buffalo, Foxconn in Wisconsin - we see nothing more than the socialization of losses. The government that "invests" (providing state money and incentives) is often left holding the bag. I thought socialism was a bad thing. I can't speak to Tesla but Foxconn only got $80M in tax breaks but invested almost $600M more than that and will create 1,454 jobs that will stimulate the economy and provide tax revenue.
The Frankish Reich Posted July 6, 2023 Posted July 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, Doc said: I can't speak to Tesla but Foxconn only got $80M in tax breaks but invested almost $600M more than that and will create 1,454 jobs that will stimulate the economy and provide tax revenue. But there's this too: Foxconn will almost certainly not be able to make good on its promise to cover $300 million in bonds issued by Wisconsin. https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/25/foxconn_wisconsin_factory/ It is not an epic fail I guess, but it's still a fail. I don't think you'll see Trump visiting the site on his campaign swing through Wisconsin ....
B-Man Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 You're a 19 year old kid. You are critically wounded and dying in the jungle somewhere in the Central Highlands of Viet Nam . Its November 14, 1965 . LZ (landing zone) X-ray. Your unit is outnumbered 8-1 and the enemy fire is so intense from 100 yards away, that your CO (commanding officer) has ordered the MedEvac helicopters to stop coming in. You're lying there, listening to the enemy machine guns and you know you're not getting out. Your family is half way around the world, 12,000 miles away, and you'll never see them again. As the world starts to fade in and out, you know this is the day. Then - over the machine gun noise - you faintly hear that sound of a helicopter. You look up to see a Huey coming in. But.. It doesn't seem real because no MedEvac markings are on it. Captain Ed Freeman is coming in for you. He's not MedEvac so it's not his job, but he heard the radio call and decided he's flying his Huey down into the machine gun fire anyway. Even after the MedEvacs were ordered not to come. He's coming anyway. And he drops it in and sits there in the machine gun fire, as they load 3 of you at a time on board. Then he flies you up and out through the gunfire to the doctors and nurses and safety. And, he kept coming back!! 13 more times!! Until all the wounded were out. No one knew until the mission was over that the Captain had been hit 4 times in the legs and left arm. He took 29 of you and your buddies out that day. Some would not have made it without the Captain and his Huey. Medal of Honor Recipient, Captain Ed Freeman, United States Army, died at the age of 80, in Boise, Idaho. I bet you didn't hear about this hero's passing, Medal of Honor Winner Captain Ed Freeman. From the: CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR SOCIETY https://www.cmohs.org/recipients/ed-w-freeman#:~:text=After medical evacuation helicopters refused,survived had he not acted.
Orlando Buffalo Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: My point is this: "industrial policy" is usually the opposite of free market policy. And in a lot of these cases - Tesla in Buffalo, Foxconn in Wisconsin - we see nothing more than the socialization of losses. The government that "invests" (providing state money and incentives) is often left holding the bag. I thought socialism was a bad thing. Usually is the proper term and you are correct, my preferred method of coaxing business plans is to allow them tax breaks for X months, basically allow them to build the business without worrying about government taking a chunk too early. But the direct payment method I have seen some of these times is insane.
The Frankish Reich Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 Just now, Orlando Tim said: Usually is the proper term and you are correct, my preferred method of coaxing business plans is to allow them tax breaks for X months, basically allow them to build the business without worrying about government taking a chunk too early. But the direct payment method I have seen some of these times is insane. Agreed. Special tax favored investment zones were favored by Republicans of the Reagan type. They are not nearly as problematic as the commitment of public funds for private purposes. Stadium deals are the same corrupt mess. I mean, I want them to keep my teams in town, but that’s just me being selfish, not good policy.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 Lying liars lie https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4085224-jan-6-lawyer-to-cnns-abby-phillip-i-know-this-stuff-better-than-you/
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 R's against Barbie: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/07/gop-declares-war-on-barbie-00105154
T&C Posted July 7, 2023 Author Posted July 7, 2023 He just needs to go to hell.. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2023/07/07/gunman-who-killed-23-people-in-el-paso-sentenced-to-
B-Man Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 23 minutes ago, T&C said: He just needs to go to hell.. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2023/07/07/gunman-who-killed-23-people-in-el-paso-sentenced-to- Oh, he will. .
Gregg Posted July 7, 2023 Posted July 7, 2023 26 minutes ago, T&C said: He just needs to go to hell.. https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2023/07/07/gunman-who-killed-23-people-in-el-paso-sentenced-to- Sentenced to 90 consecutive life sentences. What is the point of that. Just say life in prison without parole. He should get the death penalty, however.
T&C Posted July 7, 2023 Author Posted July 7, 2023 20 minutes ago, Gregg said: Sentenced to 90 consecutive life sentences. What is the point of that. Just say life in prison without parole. He should get the death penalty, however. He might if Texas has their way. 1
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