Random Political Thoughts Inc.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

15 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Let me give it a try.  its the same reason journalists do not report the truth.  Because ethics and science go out the window when everybody is getting paid big bucks to go along with the system and speaking out of turn will get you censured, de-credentialed, or result in a ruined reputation and a loss of income as a "science denier" when the truth is the only science to deny is political science.  You also have lots of researchers and scientists dependent on the very government agencies that are generating and sponsoring these polices and narratives.  You speak out against it and suddenly your research project is de-funded by the NIH.  Everybody's a prostitute to the almighty dollar and the pure principled person is few and far between.

 

Here's a link to a rather lengthy and interesting piece on why journalists toe the line.

 

https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/15-reasons-why-mass-media-employees-act-like-propagandists-553a08074347

you do realize that the big money in science is in administration, right.  The bench chemist designing new groundbreaking drugs makes a fraction of the folks in the C suite at pharma companies.  Analogous situation in health care systems which were once known as hospitals and run by doctors.d it's not that the scientists couldn't do those jobs.  Many do and go on for MBA's and JD's after becoming scientists.  But feel free to carry on with your persecution syndrome and your lack of recognition that some people value knowledge and making a real difference over getting rich.

[All_Pro_Bills]

15 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

you do realize that the big money in science is in administration, right.  The bench chemist designing new groundbreaking drugs makes a fraction of the folks in the C suite at pharma companies.  Analogous situation in health care systems which were once known as hospitals and run by doctors.d it's not that the scientists couldn't do those jobs.  Many do and go on for MBA's and JD's after becoming scientists.  But feel free to carry on with your persecution syndrome and your lack of recognition that some people value knowledge and making a real difference over getting rich.

You can rationalize it any way you want.  And "speak" in a condescending tone suggesting you know so much more than I do.  Perhaps that's true but what I do know is money talks and BS walks.  As my organization does lots of work with most of the top 30 pharma companies related to medication usage and analysis I know a bit about the motivations of the drug industry  And in this position I share a portion of the guilty of my own conclusion.  As for the US health care system itself I conclude its a cost maximizing hustle at every point in the health care delivery system.  A ten day hospital stay will likely generate a bill of around $250K.   

 

As for big money, there's a reason doctor's are sending their kids to country club summer camp for golf lessons and other perks that most of their patients and certainly not the nursing staff cannot afford. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

33 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

I'm not taking up for my colleagues.  I'm taking up for science and rational thought.    I'm fighting against ignorance and stupidity.  People like Fauci are the backbone of Medicine.  Unafraid of repercussions they put themselves at risk on a daily basis.  And their knowledge base is quantum leaps above the general publics.  The guy is in his 80's and is financially secure..  Why put himself through this?  Cuz he took an oath and lives by it and there are very few people walking the earth that know more about infectious disease.

Sure you are, you’ve done it a couple times lately.  Doctors are too busy to help out on the community…they’re overworked and exhausted….blah blah blah.  A gifted doctor—and you, your colleagues and our boy @Doc may well fall into that category.   I understand that, you’re like most folks who claim that others don’t know how tough things are for you.  It’s natural. 
 

Still, many are average, having average conversations, providing average service and ***** average work. That’s not even a reflection on the medial profession, it’s just the way life works.  I like my doctor, and have been generally very healthy over my life time, but it wouldn’t take much of a nudge to get me to a new provider.  My guy seems hard to reach, hard to see, and rescheduled me a few times to the point it got frustrating.  
 

Now, you’re in the Faucci camp, that’s fine.  Lots of people are.  I can only tell you from my perspective that the cynicism that followed his handling of the pandemic is warranted if you don’t call in the “doctors used to be revered” category.  
 

I’ll ask you this—-why would I trust him without verifying when he was completely impotent and tepid on mass gatherings and the spread of the virus?  
 

As for Faucci and his brilliance, no argument from me at all.  He’s obviously an accomplished human being, and with that likely comes a healthy degree of narcissism.    You want to put him on a pedestal above reproach, go ahead and kneel.   All I can tell you is that a man universally revered for his brilliance in his field should have been using his platform to say:

 

”I understand why you’re gathering and protesting, but for the love of humanity, each gathering comes at tremendous cost to your friends, neighbors and family members.  You are literally killing people—-children, parents, grandparents and so many more.  Let’s come together by staying apart.”.

 

 

He didn’t, leaders in the political realm didn’t, and people can smell even distinguished old scientist bs a mile away. 
 

 

As for his knowledge on infectious disease, you’re probably right, but there are serious concerns for all his knowledge that he and his &$@7ed up basic

protocol.  Maybe job one should be to ensure that said infectious diseases stay contained?  I learned that watching World War Z. 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You can rationalize it any way you want.  And "speak" in a condescending tone suggesting you know so much more than I do.  Perhaps that's true but what I do know is money talks and BS walks.  As my organization does lots of work with most of the top 30 pharma companies related to medication usage and analysis I know a bit about the motivations of the drug industry  And in this position I share a portion of the guilty of my own conclusion.  As for the US health care system itself I conclude its a cost maximizing hustle at every point in the health care delivery system.  A ten day hospital stay will likely generate a bill of around $250K.   

 

As for big money, there's a reason doctor's are sending their kids to country club summer camp for golf lessons and other perks that most of their patients and certainly not the nursing staff cannot afford. 

When i interviewed for a place in med schools, I was asked my motivation for becoming a doc at every one.  "Money" is an answer that will get you blackballed faster than anything else.  More than 1 admissions officer told me (unsolicited) that if money was the objective, business was the answer, not Medicine.  He was right.  That said, few go into it just for altruism.   They expect an above average lifestyle for their efforts.  It's a rare profession that melds science, art, compassion and a relatively high income.  But it comes with sacrifices and health risks not demanded of the biz folks.
 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

16 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Sure you are, you’ve done it a couple times lately.  Doctors are too busy to help out on the community…they’re overworked and exhausted….blah blah blah.  A gifted doctor—and you, your colleagues and our boy @Doc may well fall into that category.   I understand that, you’re like most folks who claim that others don’t know how tough things are for you.  It’s natural. 
 

Still, many are average, having average conversations, providing average service and ***** average work. That’s not even a reflection on the medial profession, it’s just the way life works.  I like my doctor, and have been generally very healthy over my life time, but it wouldn’t take much of a nudge to get me to a new provider.  My guy seems hard to reach, hard to see, and rescheduled me a few times to the point it got frustrating.  
 

Now, you’re in the Faucci camp, that’s fine.  Lots of people are.  I can only tell you from my perspective that the cynicism that followed his handling of the pandemic is warranted if you don’t call in the “doctors used to be revered” category.  
 

I’ll ask you this—-why would I trust him without verifying when he was completely impotent and tepid on mass gatherings and the spread of the virus?  
 

As for Faucci and his brilliance, no argument from me at all.  He’s obviously an accomplished human being, and with that likely comes a healthy degree of narcissism.    You want to put him on a pedestal above reproach, go ahead and kneel.   All I can tell you is that a man universally revered for his brilliance in his field should have been using his platform to say:

 

”I understand why you’re gathering and protesting, but for the love of humanity, each gathering comes at tremendous cost to your friends, neighbors and family members.  You are literally killing people—-children, parents, grandparents and so many more.  Let’s come together by staying apart.”.

 

 

He didn’t, leaders in the political realm didn’t, and people can smell even distinguished old scientist bs a mile away. 
 

 

As for his knowledge on infectious disease, you’re probably right, but there are serious concerns for all his knowledge that he and his &$@7ed up basic

protocol.  Maybe job one should be to ensure that said infectious diseases stay contained?  I learned that watching World War Z. 

 

 

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/fauci-dispatch-thanksgiving-advice

 

Fauci on lockdowns – Fauci also said his goal is not to impose shutdowns unless deaths and hospitalizations became “really really bad," when speaking with 60 Minutes.

“Put 'shut down' away and say, 'We're going to use public health measures to help us safely get to where we wanna go,'" he said.

 

He's neither an orator or a politician (He's a doctor, Jim!) and he didn't have the megaphone.  trump did.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by redtail hawk

[wnyguy]

Fauci did more damage to this country than the Corona virus ever did. He is wolf in sheeps clothing.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

39 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/fauci-dispatch-thanksgiving-advice

 

Fauci on lockdowns – Fauci also said his goal is not to impose shutdowns unless deaths and hospitalizations became “really really bad," when speaking with 60 Minutes.

“Put 'shut down' away and say, 'We're going to use public health measures to help us safely get to where we wanna go,'" he said.

 

He's neither an orator or a politician (He's a doctor, Jim!) and he didn't have the megaphone.  trump did.

 

Sure, a virus is burning through the planet, Trump has been accused of being an agent of Russia, his opponents routinely dismiss his commentary, his opponents $hittalk the vax developed on his watch, and the man you describe as the foremost expert on infectious disease—including one he should have had intimate familiarity with due to his association with the lab—uses his thin-white-coat-line pass to avoid responsibility. 
 

Docs close ranks for other docs, but this is silly. 
 

He was a huge part of the COVID problem, and the reason people are cynical of the entire thing to this day.  That goes for Dems, Rs, and independents. 

[The Frankish Reich]

12 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

Honestly if you want to find it we had a long thread about it in 2021 here where I had a long merry go round with a couple of guys, but if at this point you still believe that healthy people under 30 were helped by the vaccine I can't help you. Find any study that makes a prediction on lives saved under 30.

From what I've seen:

- from the individual perspective, you are probably correct that for people under 30 with no complicating health issues (asthma, obesity, etc.), getting vaccinated did not render any health benefits at a statistically significant level

- the question, however, does not end at the individual level. As with all vaccines, we are also concerned with public health impacts: did mass vaccination allow us to bend the curve and help to arrest the spread of the virus (and its many mutations) to the population at large? That is difficult to unpack given the many, many confounding variables, but from what we know it is reasonable to assign a significant benefit to the vaccines

 

This reveals one of the problems with political discourse in America. One side focuses solely on their own personal situation and individual liberty while the other worries about population effects. In the end both matter. They must be balanced.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

17 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Sure, a virus is burning through the planet, Trump has been accused of being an agent of Russia, his opponents routinely dismiss his commentary, his opponents $hittalk the vax developed on his watch, and the man you describe as the foremost expert on infectious disease—including one he should have had intimate familiarity with due to his association with the lab—uses his thin-white-coat-line pass to avoid responsibility. 
 

Docs close ranks for other docs, but this is silly. 
 

He was a huge part of the COVID problem, and the reason people are cynical of the entire thing to this day.  That goes for Dems, Rs, and independents. 

Let me give you a personal example of how this worked.  When the vax first came out, I emailed the CEO of the health system to propose a TV commercial with prominent Docs getting their shots.  He wrote back that it was an excellent idea but that he thought it would be more effective if he was filmed getting the shot (He's not well liked here and has no formal medical training).  Either way, the commercial was never made.

Edited June 6, 2023 by redtail hawk

[B-Man]

 

 

 

                                            

 

 

 

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[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

                                            

 

 

 

.

Racist.

 

[I kid!]

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

11 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Let me give you a personal example of how this worked.  When the vax first came out, I emailed the CEO of the health system to propose a TV commercial with prominent Docs getting their shots.  He wrote back that it was an excellent idea but that he thought it would be more effective if he was filmed getting the shot (He's not well liked here and has no formal medical training).  Either way, the commercial was never made.

What exactly is this an example of—apathy? 
 

I’ll give you a better example by changing the facts slightly. 
 

You call the the CEO, you tell him that the certain actions of the public pose a massive threat to the citizens of the county.   You believe that because the science tells you so, and you preach a lockdown mentality to every patient you encounter.  You suggest in the same video docs getting shots and speaking poignantly about how the virus spreads, that mass gatherings are guaranteed to cause spread, suffering and death on a global scale. 
 

The CEO says, “I don’t know, it seems like a lot of work. I don’t think it’s the role of the medical profession to spread the word about virus, transmission and death.”

 

You say “Yeah, it’s the politicians job anyway.” 

 

 

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

28 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

From what I've seen:

- from the individual perspective, you are probably correct that for people under 30 with no complicating health issues (asthma, obesity, etc.), getting vaccinated did not render any health benefits at a statistically significant level

- the question, however, does not end at the individual level. As with all vaccines, we are also concerned with public health impacts: did mass vaccination allow us to bend the curve and help to arrest the spread of the virus (and its many mutations) to the population at large? That is difficult to unpack given the many, many confounding variables, but from what we know it is reasonable to assign a significant benefit to the vaccines

 

This reveals one of the problems with political discourse in America. One side focuses solely on their own personal situation and individual liberty while the other worries about population effects. In the end both matter. They must be balanced.

Again, I’ll repeat myself.   When people are told to hunker down, stay home and shelter in place, under threat of arrest or detainment if they choose to go to church, it is completely reasonable and understandable when they see people completely and repeatedly violate said protocol that they get suspicious.  
 

In fact, it’s the people that don’t go “Huh, that’s odd!” that reveal on some level how authoritarian regimes take hold. 
 

The virus oddly seemed to hover a lot over the right types of gatherings.  The Biden inauguration is a fine example of that, and there were many more. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Again, I’ll repeat myself.   When people are told to hunker down, stay home and shelter in place, under threat of arrest or detainment if they choose to go to church, it is completely reasonable and understandable when they see people completely and repeatedly violate said protocol that they get suspicious.  
 

In fact, it’s the people that don’t go “Huh, that’s odd!” that reveal on some level how authoritarian regimes take hold. 
 

The virus oddly seemed to hover a lot over the right types of gatherings.  The Biden inauguration is a fine example of that, and there were many more. 

I will admit it: I'm a glass half full guy. Maybe it's just my disposition, maybe it's because I have faith in humanity, I don't know.

Three and a half years after the virus was first detected, I have to say that we made a lot of mistakes in responding to the virus, but the virus did not end civilization, the economy did not collapse, we lost a lot of family members and other loved ones to it, but we muddled through with a generally effective (at times, heavy-handed, but effective) collective response, including a remarkably fast and (yes) effective development new category of vaccines that put us in a better place for dealing with this situation in the future.

At this point, I am just getting tired of the negativity. We did well as a country (and a world, perhaps minus China) when faced with the real possibility of the kind of devastation not seen since the Black Death. Sometimes you declare victory and also try to learn from your mistakes. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

21 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What exactly is this an example of—apathy? 
 

I’ll give you a better example by changing the facts slightly. 
 

You call the the CEO, you tell him that the certain actions of the public pose a massive threat to the citizens of the county.   You believe that because the science tells you so, and you preach a lockdown mentality to every patient you encounter.  You suggest in the same video docs getting shots and speaking poignantly about how the virus spreads, that mass gatherings are guaranteed to cause spread, suffering and death on a global scale. 
 

The CEO says, “I don’t know, it seems like a lot of work. I don’t think it’s the role of the medical profession to spread the word about virus, transmission and death.”

 

You say “Yeah, it’s the politicians job anyway.” 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess you've never been in a meeting in a health system exec suite.  Not how it works.  My initial email said everything you mentioned.  Didn't matter.  The reason?  Much of this area is deep red and the commercial might hurt market share.  In that sense, posters here are absolutely correct in the assertion that greed has overtaken care.

Edited June 6, 2023 by redtail hawk

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

33 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I will admit it: I'm a glass half full guy. Maybe it's just my disposition, maybe it's because I have faith in humanity, I don't know.

Three and a half years after the virus was first detected, I have to say that we made a lot of mistakes in responding to the virus, but the virus did not end civilization, the economy did not collapse, we lost a lot of family members and other loved ones to it, but we muddled through with a generally effective (at times, heavy-handed, but effective) collective response, including a remarkably fast and (yes) effective development new category of vaccines that put us in a better place for dealing with this situation in the future.

At this point, I am just getting tired of the negativity. We did well as a country (and a world, perhaps minus China) when faced with the real possibility of the kind of devastation not seen since the Black Death. Sometimes you declare victory and also try to learn from your mistakes. 

Thanks for the measured response.  I get your perspective and believe it or not, I attempt to be reasonable in my assessment of the parties involved.  I initially thought Andrew Cuomo was doing a good job handling NY--I mean, who really wants to be a position where the world is at a tipping point?  

 

As I said, I followed the rules, followed protocol, masked up, maintained distance and avoided people at risk.  I listened to Faucci, listened to the science, closed my office to walk in clients, paid for my employees to work remotely, and so on.  I got vaxxed when I could...vaxxed/vaxxed/boosted.  I watched the democrats attempting to blow up the Trumpian response knowing full well that Republiacns would have done their level best to blow up a Dem response under the same scenario.

 

That said...a glass is half-full ideology does not preclude me from calling out obvious and systemic hypocrisy, nor the fallout that surely follows.  Quite the opposite, in fact, my job is to protect and guide my family in spite of my own shortcomings. 

 

I've said a lot on this issue, but it comes down to this:

• Those leaders (medical, cultural, political) who called for lockdowns while looking the other way on social protests/inaug/etc were either grossly incompetent, and should not be trusted in the future; or
• Those same leaders knew more than they lead on, continued to support lockdowns for the compliant long after they knew they were unnecessary, and should not be trusted in the future;
• They knew the virus would spread and desired the transmission and death that would follow for political reasons, and obviously should not be trusted in the future;

I'm open to other glass-half-full explanations, but being an optimist and belief in humanity as a whole does not negate the necessity of applying critical thinking skills to something a scenario like this. 

 

Big picture--when the next pandemic hits, there is ample blame to be laid at the feet of 'leaders' for the cynicism that surely follows. 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

52 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

I guess you've never been in a meeting in a health system exec suite.  Not how it works.  My initial email said everything you mentioned.  Didn't matter.  The reason?  Much of this area is deep red and the commercial might hurt market share.  In that sense, posters here are absolutely correct in the assertion that greed has overtaken care.

No, I've never been in a meeting in a health system exec suite.  I have, however, met and interacted with executives from Fortune 50 companies, a substantial number of wealthy and powerful people, a former governor of NY, and some high-ranking folks in NYS government.   On the other hand, I've met with people struggling to get by, those solidly in the middle class, people who were were subsequently the victim of violent crime, reformed criminals, and in at least one case, a guy caught up in a murder for hire scheme.  My experiences are diverse, and my opinions shaped by my experience. 

 

I'm happy to leave it at an impasse on Faucci's role in all this. We'll not agree, and that's fine. 

[The Frankish Reich]

16 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Thanks for the measured response.  I get your perspective and believe it or not, I attempt to be reasonable in my assessment of the parties involved.  I initially thought Andrew Cuomo was doing a good job handling NY--I mean, who really wants to be a position where the world is at a tipping point?  

 

As I said, I followed the rules, followed protocol, masked up, maintained distance and avoided people at risk.  I listened to Faucci, listened to the science, closed my office to walk in clients, paid for my employees to work remotely, and so on.  I got vaxxed when I could...vaxxed/vaxxed/boosted.  I watched the democrats attempting to blow up the Trumpian response knowing full well that Republiacns would have done their level best to blow up a Dem response under the same scenario.

 

That said...a glass is half-full ideology does not preclude me from calling out obvious and systemic hypocrisy, nor the fallout that surely follows.  Quite the opposite, in fact, my job is to protect and guide my family in spite of my own shortcomings. 

 

I've said a lot on this issue, but it comes down to this:

• Those leaders (medical, cultural, political) who called for lockdowns while looking the other way on social protests/inaug/etc were either grossly incompetent, and should not be trusted in the future; or
• Those same leaders knew more than they lead on, continued to support lockdowns for the compliant long after they knew they were unnecessary, and should not be trusted in the future;
• They knew the virus would spread and desired the transmission and death that would follow for political reasons, and obviously should not be trusted in the future;

I'm open to other glass-half-full explanations, but being an optimist and belief in humanity as a whole does not negate the necessity of applying critical thinking skills to something a scenario like this. 

 

Big picture--when the next pandemic hits, there is ample blame to be laid at the feet of 'leaders' for the cynicism that surely follows. 

 

 

Thanks. Every know and then a reasoned discussion breaks out here ...

 

... My take: I knew people in NYC who were scared in March and April 2020. Really scared. And for good reason. People dying in their buildings. People staged in hospital corridors. People needed ventilators to save their lives and there weren't enough ventilators to save their lives.

 

By mid-summer 2020, we started to understand the virus better. We knew by then that some things were really important (avoiding large numbers of people in enclosed spaces, improving air circulation), some not (avoiding large groups outdoors, wiping down surfaces like maniacs). But governments and businesses were conservative by nature. Nobody wanted to be the guy who opened the floodgates to the virus. 

 

We also knew vaccines were coming, and it was prudent to wait for vaccines that were showing great promise. The vaccines came, and by summer 2021 it was probably the time to eliminate most restrictions, but too many states and businesses (and countries) kept them in place. Again, conservatism, in the old small "c" sense of the word.

 

I don't see any conspiracies here, just well-meaning people scared of the virus, and then scared of being the one who stepped out front to repeal restrictions. Did some politicians/unions/interest groups see the virus as also offering an opportunity? Of course. They always do. That's to be expected. But no crazy conspiracies. 

 

We did o.k. Really, better than o.k. Those early days were scary. We heard about what was happening in China, and saw what was happening in NYC, on Indian reservations, in norther Italy, etc. We largely prevented those kinds of horrific outbreaks in the USA and indeed in most of the developed world. We got too dug in and stuck with restrictive measures too long. But science did respond with remarkable speed with effective if imperfect vaccines. We should pat ourselves on the back and then do a full after-action report about what worked, what didn't, and what worked initially but was kept in place too long. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Thanks. Every know and then a reasoned discussion breaks out here ...

 

... My take: I knew people in NYC who were scared in March and April 2020. Really scared. And for good reason. People dying in their buildings. People staged in hospital corridors. People needed ventilators to save their lives and there weren't enough ventilators to save their lives.

People were scared everywhere.  Early on (like maybe a day or two before the lockdowns were mandated) I met with a gentleman I know who was healthy on a Tuesday, and a friend shared a Fb post from his wife on that Saturday that he was in the hospital on copious amounts of oxygen.  I thought I had killed my entire family.   He survived, thankfully. 

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

By mid-summer 2020, we started to understand the virus better. We knew by then that some things were really important (avoiding large numbers of people in enclosed spaces, improving air circulation), some not (avoiding large groups outdoors, wiping down surfaces like maniacs). But governments and businesses were conservative by nature. Nobody wanted to be the guy who opened the floodgates to the virus. 

By the nature of their inaction, the flood gates were opened, Frank. That's exactly my point.  People do not  gather in large groups without coming from somewhere--they drive in cars, take public transportation, use bathrooms, shop at the 7-11, buy takeout, sit down in the occasional restaurant, sleep indoors, cohabitate, travel through airports and bus terminals and so on.  If I know this, surely 'they' know this.  As a leader,  who the *&^% keeps their mouth shut in this scenario?  

 

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

We also knew vaccines were coming, and it was prudent to wait for vaccines that were showing great promise. The vaccines came, and by summer 2021 it was probably the time to eliminate most restrictions, but too many states and businesses (and countries) kept them in place. Again, conservatism, in the old small "c" sense of the word.

 

I don't see any conspiracies here, just well-meaning people scared of the virus, and then scared of being the one who stepped out front to repeal restrictions. Did some politicians/unions/interest groups see the virus as also offering an opportunity? Of course. They always do. That's to be expected. But no crazy conspiracies. 

Well-meaning people complied with the lockdowns orders, Frank.  They were the compliant.  This isn't a conspiracy, Frank, history reveals how this played out. I don't even fault protestors--they were generally young and like most, likely felt they safe.  Still...Mass gatherings during a virus with the potential to kill millions.  Silence from leadership.  The future VP spread fear about vaccinations, Frank.  

 

 

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

We did o.k. Really, better than o.k. Those early days were scary. We heard about what was happening in China, and saw what was happening in NYC, on Indian reservations, in norther Italy, etc. We largely prevented those kinds of horrific outbreaks in the USA and indeed in most of the developed world. We got too dug in and stuck with restrictive measures too long. But science did respond with remarkable speed with effective if imperfect vaccines. We should pat ourselves on the back and then do a full after-action report about what worked, what didn't, and what worked initially but was kept in place too long. 

Imagine how well we might have done without abdication of responsibility during those crucial summer months in 2020. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I have, however, met and interacted with executives from Fortune 50 companies, a substantial number of wealthy and powerful people, a former governor of NY, and some high-ranking folks in NYS government.   On the other hand, I've met with people struggling to get by, those solidly in the middle class, people who were were subsequently the victim of violent crime, reformed criminals, and in at least one case, a guy caught up in a murder for hire scheme.  My experiences are diverse, and my opinions shaped by my experience. 

 

wow.  good for you.  Everyones opinions are shaped by their experiences.  That's why I seek and have lived very diverse experiences  Yours don't seem to have much relevance to virology, pandemic mitigation, epidemiology, infectious disease or medicine.