Random Political Thoughts Inc.

[B-Man]

 

 

                                              

 

 

 

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[ChiGoose]

1 hour ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

You actually argued that people who are willing to break the law to enter the country are less likely to break any further laws. That is stupidly against everything we know about human psychology. Sanctuary cities have higher crime rates than non sanctuary cities as a whole, and it is not that close. But I will ask you to name three cities you believe have been improved by being sanctuary cities, and if you can name three I will not respond.

 

This is an excellent example of the brainrot that undermines the modern clickservative movement. It's all feelings, no facts. Arguments are mostly strawmen born of a media bubble that is unlikely to ever be penetrated by reality.

 

Instead of looking at studies, facts, and data, it's all about emotional appeals and anecdotes designed to instill anger or fear in the viewer.

 

But, if you look at reality:

 

Sanctuary cities do not increase crime:

• Sanctuary cities and crime: This paper finds (1) no evidence that sanctuary policies cause an increase in any crime, (2) some evidence that they may lead to a decrease in property crime, and the effect is strengthened over time after the adoption, (3) the increased trust between residents and police is likely the reason for the negative effect.
• Sanctuary Policies Lower Counties' Crime Rates: In a study published in Social Science Research, researcher Marta Ascherio shows that both property crime and violent crime decreased more in sanctuary counties than in nonsanctuary counties after 2014, when many such policies were implemented. Her findings also suggest that sanctuary practices in counties improve political integration in immigrant communities, lead to positive spillover effects, and increase overall social harmony in the areas where they are implemented.
• Sanctuary Cities and Their Respective Effect on Crime Rates : Using publicly available data, this regression analysis investigates the relationship between crime rates in selected cities and independent variables which the research literature or the media has linked to criminal activity. Results of this research reveal that sanctuary cities do not experience higher violent or property crime rates than those cities that are not sanctuary cities
• No Evidence Sanctuary Cities ‘Breed Crime’: “We find no statistically discernible difference in violent crime rate, rape, or property crime across the cities,” the researchers concluded. “Our findings provide evidence that sanctuary policies have no effect on crime rates, despite narratives to the contrary.”

Illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans:

• Debunking the Myth of the Migrant Crime Wave: Substantial research has assessed the relationship between immigration and crime. Numerous studies show that immigration is not linked to higher levels of crime, but rather the opposite. Studies have also examined the impact of the concentration of immigrants in a community on crime patterns, finding that immigration is associated with lower crime rates and an increase in structural factors — such as social connection and economic opportunity — that are linked to neighborhood safety.
• Undocumented Immigrant Offending Rate Lower Than U.S.-Born Citizen Rate: The study found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half the rate of native-born U.S. citizens for violent and drug crimes and a quarter the rate of native-born citizens for property crimes.
• Immigrants are significantly less likely to commit crimes than the U.S.-born: Study finds over a 150-year period, immigrants have never been incarcerated at a greater rate than those born in the United States

 

Now, all of this makes sense if you both live in reality and are able to think past an immediate emotional reaction.

 

If illegal immigrants are not going to be deported for talking to law enforcement, they are more likely to be willing to report crimes. In locations where local law enforcement also enforces federal border policy, illegal immigrants probably won't want to report crimes out of fear for themselves being deported. This also leaves them vulnerable to be a victim of crime (abuse, domestic violence, fraud, robbery, etc) if the perpetrator knows they are illegal and won't report the crimes for fear of being deported.

 

If someone is willing to go through dangerous of coming into the country illegally, it's likely that they very much do not want to be sent back to the place they are escaping from. Therefore, it would make sense that once here, they would be careful not to run afoul of the law.

 

While there is a lot of debate to be had about what immigration policy should look like, anyone basing that on the idea that illegal immigrants and/or sanctuary cities are driving increases in crime rates is either ignorant of the facts or arguing in bad faith.

[JDHillFan]

8 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

This is an excellent example of the brainrot that undermines the modern clickservative movement. It's all feelings, no facts. Arguments are mostly strawmen born of a media bubble that is unlikely to ever be penetrated by reality.

 

Instead of looking at studies, facts, and data, it's all about emotional appeals and anecdotes designed to instill anger or fear in the viewer.

 

But, if you look at reality:

 

Sanctuary cities do not increase crime:

• Sanctuary cities and crime: This paper finds (1) no evidence that sanctuary policies cause an increase in any crime, (2) some evidence that they may lead to a decrease in property crime, and the effect is strengthened over time after the adoption, (3) the increased trust between residents and police is likely the reason for the negative effect.
• Sanctuary Policies Lower Counties' Crime Rates: In a study published in Social Science Research, researcher Marta Ascherio shows that both property crime and violent crime decreased more in sanctuary counties than in nonsanctuary counties after 2014, when many such policies were implemented. Her findings also suggest that sanctuary practices in counties improve political integration in immigrant communities, lead to positive spillover effects, and increase overall social harmony in the areas where they are implemented.
• Sanctuary Cities and Their Respective Effect on Crime Rates : Using publicly available data, this regression analysis investigates the relationship between crime rates in selected cities and independent variables which the research literature or the media has linked to criminal activity. Results of this research reveal that sanctuary cities do not experience higher violent or property crime rates than those cities that are not sanctuary cities
• No Evidence Sanctuary Cities ‘Breed Crime’: “We find no statistically discernible difference in violent crime rate, rape, or property crime across the cities,” the researchers concluded. “Our findings provide evidence that sanctuary policies have no effect on crime rates, despite narratives to the contrary.”

Illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans:

• Debunking the Myth of the Migrant Crime Wave: Substantial research has assessed the relationship between immigration and crime. Numerous studies show that immigration is not linked to higher levels of crime, but rather the opposite. Studies have also examined the impact of the concentration of immigrants in a community on crime patterns, finding that immigration is associated with lower crime rates and an increase in structural factors — such as social connection and economic opportunity — that are linked to neighborhood safety.
• Undocumented Immigrant Offending Rate Lower Than U.S.-Born Citizen Rate: The study found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half the rate of native-born U.S. citizens for violent and drug crimes and a quarter the rate of native-born citizens for property crimes.
• Immigrants are significantly less likely to commit crimes than the U.S.-born: Study finds over a 150-year period, immigrants have never been incarcerated at a greater rate than those born in the United States

 

Now, all of this makes sense if you both live in reality and are able to think past an immediate emotional reaction.

 

If illegal immigrants are not going to be deported for talking to law enforcement, they are more likely to be willing to report crimes. In locations where local law enforcement also enforces federal border policy, illegal immigrants probably won't want to report crimes out of fear for themselves being deported. This also leaves them vulnerable to be a victim of crime (abuse, domestic violence, fraud, robbery, etc) if the perpetrator knows they are illegal and won't report the crimes for fear of being deported.

 

If someone is willing to go through dangerous of coming into the country illegally, it's likely that they very much do not want to be sent back to the place they are escaping from. Therefore, it would make sense that once here, they would be careful not to run afoul of the law.

 

While there is a lot of debate to be had about what immigration policy should look like, anyone basing that on the idea that illegal immigrants and/or sanctuary cities are driving increases in crime rates is either ignorant of the facts or arguing in bad faith.

The first four links have no data later than 2016. Has anything changed relative to immigration since then? Most especially in the last four years?

[Orlando Buffalo]

17 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

This is an excellent example of the brainrot that undermines the modern clickservative movement. It's all feelings, no facts. Arguments are mostly strawmen born of a media bubble that is unlikely to ever be penetrated by reality.

 

Instead of looking at studies, facts, and data, it's all about emotional appeals and anecdotes designed to instill anger or fear in the viewer.

 

But, if you look at reality:

 

Sanctuary cities do not increase crime:

• Sanctuary cities and crime: This paper finds (1) no evidence that sanctuary policies cause an increase in any crime, (2) some evidence that they may lead to a decrease in property crime, and the effect is strengthened over time after the adoption, (3) the increased trust between residents and police is likely the reason for the negative effect.
• Sanctuary Policies Lower Counties' Crime Rates: In a study published in Social Science Research, researcher Marta Ascherio shows that both property crime and violent crime decreased more in sanctuary counties than in nonsanctuary counties after 2014, when many such policies were implemented. Her findings also suggest that sanctuary practices in counties improve political integration in immigrant communities, lead to positive spillover effects, and increase overall social harmony in the areas where they are implemented.
• Sanctuary Cities and Their Respective Effect on Crime Rates : Using publicly available data, this regression analysis investigates the relationship between crime rates in selected cities and independent variables which the research literature or the media has linked to criminal activity. Results of this research reveal that sanctuary cities do not experience higher violent or property crime rates than those cities that are not sanctuary cities
• No Evidence Sanctuary Cities ‘Breed Crime’: “We find no statistically discernible difference in violent crime rate, rape, or property crime across the cities,” the researchers concluded. “Our findings provide evidence that sanctuary policies have no effect on crime rates, despite narratives to the contrary.”

Illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans:

• Debunking the Myth of the Migrant Crime Wave: Substantial research has assessed the relationship between immigration and crime. Numerous studies show that immigration is not linked to higher levels of crime, but rather the opposite. Studies have also examined the impact of the concentration of immigrants in a community on crime patterns, finding that immigration is associated with lower crime rates and an increase in structural factors — such as social connection and economic opportunity — that are linked to neighborhood safety.
• Undocumented Immigrant Offending Rate Lower Than U.S.-Born Citizen Rate: The study found that undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half the rate of native-born U.S. citizens for violent and drug crimes and a quarter the rate of native-born citizens for property crimes.
• Immigrants are significantly less likely to commit crimes than the U.S.-born: Study finds over a 150-year period, immigrants have never been incarcerated at a greater rate than those born in the United States

 

Now, all of this makes sense if you both live in reality and are able to think past an immediate emotional reaction.

 

If illegal immigrants are not going to be deported for talking to law enforcement, they are more likely to be willing to report crimes. In locations where local law enforcement also enforces federal border policy, illegal immigrants probably won't want to report crimes out of fear for themselves being deported. This also leaves them vulnerable to be a victim of crime (abuse, domestic violence, fraud, robbery, etc) if the perpetrator knows they are illegal and won't report the crimes for fear of being deported.

 

If someone is willing to go through dangerous of coming into the country illegally, it's likely that they very much do not want to be sent back to the place they are escaping from. Therefore, it would make sense that once here, they would be careful not to run afoul of the law.

 

While there is a lot of debate to be had about what immigration policy should look like, anyone basing that on the idea that illegal immigrants and/or sanctuary cities are driving increases in crime rates is either ignorant of the facts or arguing in bad faith.

I asked for three examples of cities made better by illegal immigrants and you come back with multiple studies of mixing illegal with legal immigrants, I live among a large section of legal immigrants from all over the world and while they do make immigrants seem better than the average liberal, using them to justify illegal immigrants is immoral. Legal immigrants I support, you though think all immigrants are the same. 

[ChiGoose]

14 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

I asked for three examples of cities made better by illegal immigrants 

You really do have some kind of cognitive issue, don’t you? Or are you allergic to responding to the point actually being argued? I am starting to feel bad for you. 

 

Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime. That’s the fact that is backed up time and time again when it is studied. 

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

58 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

You really do have some kind of cognitive issue, don’t you? Or are you allergic to responding to the point actually being argued? I am starting to feel bad for you. 

 

Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime. That’s the fact that is backed up time and time again when it is studied. 

How is this possible if they are harboring people who are actively breaking the law? These people committed crimes to get there.

[Orlando Buffalo]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

You really do have some kind of cognitive issue, don’t you? Or are you allergic to responding to the point actually being argued? I am starting to feel bad for you. 

 

Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime. That’s the fact that is backed up time and time again when it is studied. 

You literally can't name one city much less three that have been improved, but present intentionally dishonest studies by smearing legal immigrants as criminals. My cognitive "issue" is I know what legal immigrants go through because of the mess that Dems have created at INS. 

[Doc]

They've hidden the true crime statistics.  That's been proven.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

A sanctuary city is simply a city where the local police do not do the work of federal immigration enforcement. 
 

It’s not at the expense of the safety of actual citizens since studies consistently show that sanctuary cities have no measurable impact on crime (and may even have a slight downward effect).

 

This makes sense to anyone who actually understands immigration and doesn’t get their news from a firehouse of misinformation as you seem to do, child. 

I think it’s undeniable that people victimized by violent criminals in the country illegally should consider themselves lucky because of the heavily researched downward effect study.  At a minimum, they should acknowledge that there was no appreciable effect on their quality of life—the murder/assualt/robbery/rape/crime actually is a net positive.  
 

I think the perpetrators are the real victims here.  It’s perp-blaming, and it’s wrong. 

[B-Man]

 

 

Hmmmmmm.

 

 

 

 

 

                                          

 

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[ChiGoose]

4 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

You literally can't name one city much less three that have been improved, but present intentionally dishonest studies by smearing legal immigrants as criminals. My cognitive "issue" is I know what legal immigrants go through because of the mess that Dems have created at INS. 

Ok, to make it simple for you because you’re clearly struggling here:

 

”Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime” =/= “Sanctuary cities make cities better*”

 

*”better” or “improved” are subjective and non-falsifiable terms you are confusing with a different falsifiable claim. 

4 hours ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said:

How is this possible if they are harboring people who are actively breaking the law? These people committed crimes to get there.

It is not a crime to be undocumented in the US. Something like 45% of people who we colloquially call “illegal immigrants” actually came here through legal means but are no longer in compliance (such as overstaying a visa or doing work that is not allowed under the visa that they came in on).

 

Additionally, the studies are looking at whether or not illegal immigrants commit crimes once they are here since that is an apples-to-apples comparison.

Edited December 29, 2024 by ChiGoose

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

55 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Ok, to make it simple for you because you’re clearly struggling here:

 

”Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime” =/= “Sanctuary cities make cities better*”

 

*”better” or “improved” are subjective and non-falsifiable terms you are confusing with a different falsifiable claim. 

It is not a crime to be undocumented in the US. Something like 45% of people who we colloquially call “illegal immigrants” actually came here through legal means but are no longer in compliance (such as overstaying a visa or doing work that is not allowed under the visa that they came in on).

 

Additionally, the studies are looking at whether or not illegal immigrants commit crimes once they are here since that is an apples-to-apples comparison.

How is it not a crime to be undocumented? That's clearly saying they came here illegally correct? I'm failing to understand your loophole.

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said:

How is it not a crime to be undocumented? That's clearly saying they came here illegally correct? I'm failing to understand your loophole.

 

They (oddly) don't believe that breaking into the country is a criminal act. 

[AlBUNDY4TDS]

Just now, Doc said:

 

They (oddly) don't believe that breaking into the country is a criminal act. 

Ahh but deporting them is inhumane correct and we should award them citizenship for breaking the law? Got it.

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said:

Ahh but deporting them is inhumane correct and we should award them citizenship for breaking the law? Got it.

 

Basically.  It's weird.

[Orlando Buffalo]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

Ok, to make it simple for you because you’re clearly struggling here:

 

”Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime” =/= “Sanctuary cities make cities better*”

 

*”better” or “improved” are subjective and non-falsifiable terms you are confusing with a different falsifiable claim. 

We definitely disagree on the idea that tren de aragua is a benefit in NYC, along with the explosion of prostitution in NYC.  The fact that no one is arresting the girls does not mean they are not breaking the law. Lastly the fact that NYC does not have money for its own citizens because they have had to spend 6 billion on the illegals is a bad thing. That is all just one city, but your opinion that those items are my opinion of quality is telling of who you are. 

[ChiGoose]

58 minutes ago, AlBUNDY4TDS said:

How is it not a crime to be undocumented? That's clearly saying they came here illegally correct? I'm failing to understand your loophole.

It’s not my loophole, it’s the law. 
 

If people come here legally but overstay their welcome, that’s a civil matter, not a criminal one. Some examples of this would be someone being here on a visitor visa but then working without a work visa, or someone coming here on a student visa but quitting school to start a business.

As far as policy is concerned, I think our legal immigration system is an abject disaster and no attempt to resolve illegal immigration without addressing the problems with our legal immigration system is doomed to failure. 

30 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

We definitely disagree on the idea that tren de aragua is a benefit in NYC, along with the explosion of prostitution in NYC.  The fact that no one is arresting the girls does not mean they are not breaking the law. Lastly the fact that NYC does not have money for its own citizens because they have had to spend 6 billion on the illegals is a bad thing. That is all just one city, but your opinion that those items are my opinion of quality is telling of who you are. 

You keep doing the thing where you claim I said something I never did. Are you a child, or are you just dumb?

Edited December 29, 2024 by ChiGoose

[Orlando Buffalo]

8 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

As far as policy is concerned, I think our legal immigration system is an abject disaster and no attempt to resolve illegal immigration without addressing the problems with our legal immigration system is doomed to failure. 

You keep doing the thing where you claim I said something I never did. Are you a child, or are you just dumb?

The first part of this is the first intelligent thing you have said, but sadly you don't realize that your side has been in charge for 12 of the last 16 years and has caused the majority of the problems. 

 

As for the second part, you spend a lot of time arguing a point without ever saying anything. You literally stated "sanctuary cities make cities better",  I showed it did not in the case of NYC. Perhaps you can show me how NYC has been improved in ways I missed?

[ChiGoose]

44 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said:

The first part of this is the first intelligent thing you have said, but sadly you don't realize that your side has been in charge for 12 of the last 16 years and has caused the majority of the problems. 

 

As for the second part, you spend a lot of time arguing a point without ever saying anything. You literally stated "sanctuary cities make cities better",  I showed it did not in the case of NYC. Perhaps you can show me how NYC has been improved in ways I missed?

How old are you? 12? You are seemingly fundamentally incapable of staying on topic and insist on introducing straw men arguments.
 

In fact, your brain has been so pickled by your media bubble that there are very few actual arguments you present that are not a straw man. 

 

Please provide citation for the following: “You literally stated ‘sanctuary cities make cities better’”

[Orlando Buffalo]

2 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

 

 

”Sanctuary city policies do not increase crime” =/= “Sanctuary cities make cities better*”