Big Nickel

[Motorin']

3 hours ago, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

Yeah having a weapon like Jeremy Chinn (two-time Defensive Rookie of the Month last season) who has the athleticism and traits to run/cover like a safety and shed blocks/tackle like a LB would be huge for our defense. Also worth pointing out that McDermott and Beane drafted Shaq Thompson in Carolina despite already having Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis in their primes. I don't think Thompson was necessarily used as a Big Nickel specifically, but he represented that type of player who was a bit undersized but had the range and cover skills to stay on the field for all three downs.

 

In the 2021 draft, I would rank the Big Nickel options as follows (certainly some projection here as some guys won't have played in this capacity much): 

 

1) Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah- Hard to ask for a better prototype, one of my favorite prospects in the entire draft. Freak athlete who is undersized as a LB. Excellent in coverage even lining up over the slot WR at times and has a knack for creating turnovers and negative plays. Great instincts and takes good angles to the ball. Ferocious hitter who's always looking to dislodge the ball. Super impressive pro day backs up what I watched on Saturdays. 

2) Trevon Moehrig- One of the top safeties in the draft, but has the size and length that could project to a Buffalo Nickel type role. Great athlete who possesses corner-like cover skills. Excellent tackler/plus run defender who triggers quickly and navigates traffic well. Above average ball skills.

3) Chazz Surratt- Very raw prospect who only played 2 seasons at LB after converting from QB. Excellent see-and-chase LB with an ideal athletic profile and build to become a Buffalo Nickel if a team can be patient and develop him. His below-average instincts/angles/play diagnosis will likely improve as he continues to learn how to be a defender and he has tons of upside. A clear tier below/more boom or bust potential than the previous two guys though.

4) Talanoa Hufanga- Played all over the field for USC and was their ballhawk/difference maker in the back seven. Would need to add a bit more weight (currently 200 lbs), but his instincts/awareness and ability to recognize and jump routes stood out on film. Not a burner, but his game speed looked faster than his 40 time which would be my biggest concern. 

 

Honorable Mention- Hamsah Nasirildeen (has possibly the best combination of length/size for a Buffalo Nickel role in the class, but his underwhelming production at FSU and average pro day testing knocks him down the list for me), Trill Williams (played out of position at SU but has the size and upside to switch), JaCoby Stevens (I like LSU DBs and his size/big game experience/explosive numbers on his jumps at the pro day are impressive, but I worry about his speed in coverage, same with Divine Diablo who I think is even slower/less athletic).

 

There you go, just one guy's opinion, but as you can tell, I'm excited about adding a Buffalo Nickel/hybrid defender who can stay on the field with their athleticism on all downs and help us match up with some of the more athletic offenses in the league. Go Bills!

 

 

 

What about Jabril Cox? 

[Putin]

13 hours ago, syhuang said:

Marvin Wilson, FSU

You thought of FSU and that’s who you come up with ??

[WideNine]

12 hours ago, freddyjj said:

This from TBN in March. 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/florida-state-dbs-show-skills-for-bills-nfl-scouts-at-pro-day/article_0e9e651c-8b4f-11eb-9514-e7f8cc99065f.html#:~:text=However%2C Nasirildeen did not run the 40 due,had vertical jumps of more than 40 inches.

 

Hamsah Nasirildeen FSU.  Hybrid S/LB. 

 

 

 

If the Bills go this route I think there are a few OLB prospects that are a bit light for that NFL role that could easily transition to a heavy nickel role.  The Bills need to do ensure they do not run into the same developmental struggles they have with Edmunds by finding prospects that are instinctive diagnosing plays and can get off blocks to make tackles while still being solid in coverage.

 

 

 

[syhuang]

1 hour ago, Putin said:

You thought of FSU and that’s who you come up with ??

in 2nd round

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Just watching when the Bills defense was at its most effective both late last year and in 2018/2019 - the 5th DB needs to be able to cover a TE and still get off blocks to make plays out wide on RBs.  Hybrid with size and speed.

 

The Bills were most effective with Milano and Edmunds both over the “A” gaps on either side of the center.  2 DTs (Oliver and probably Obada this year) on the outside shoulder of the guards, and Hughes and Addison at DE.  Essentially 6 guys across the line of scrimmage and you bring 5.  The 5 remaining DBs need to cover lots of space with WRs and TEs and pick up flaring RBs.  They were really good at TEs in 2018 + 2019, but struggled against RBs in screen situations.  Last year they were better against the RBs, but the TEs ate them alive.  
 

I would love to see that hybrid speed player to fill out the defense and this year with the decrease in talent at TE we will see - the numbers should look better just based on schedule, but that is a critical role that we seem to be missing- especially with Marlowe a FA.

 

Geisicki, Smith and Henry in NE, Kelce, Gronk+Brate/howard, Hurst, Ebron - some good ones on the schedule this year.

[CEN-CAL17]

 

Hamsah Nasirildeen S FSU

 

A tackling machine. I feel Beane loves this kid too hence the FSU visit. Watch interviews of this kid, he talks about being played all over the field, including OLB, blitzing a lot, filling the gap etc. 

 

Hes got size and his wing span was over 80”, at 6’4” if he could play at 225 lbs, he’d be a great Big Nickle. Cover TEs drop into coverage is his strength. 
 

If he last past 55 I’d be surprised but he may slip to 61 and I’d love the pick.

[ndirish1978]

 

18 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Been thinking today, McD could really use a toy for a big nickel hybrid kinda guy. Last year it was Chinn and Dugger. Anybody like that coming out this year? I feel like it was this time last year that the Dugger name was starting to pop up around our team. Anybody got anything?

 

These are the guys I see that can play Big Nickel. 

• Hamsah Nasirildeen S FSU
• Jeremiah Owuso-Koramoah LB ND
• Jamar Johnson S Indiana
• Jacoby Stevens S LSU
• Tyrie Gillespie S Missouri
• Divine Deablo S Va Tech
• Richie Grant S UCF

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

What about Jabril Cox? 

 

Cox and Owusu-Koramoah can probably both ply Big Nickel but I'm not sure either will be around before we pick in the 2nd. I don't expect us to spend a 1st rder on a big Nickel, though I wouldn't be against it. Pats will be in 12 personnel 90% of the time.

Edited April 8, 2021 by ndirish1978

[BuffaloRebound]

Height/Length is an under-rated quality for DB’s and LB’s.  Always been important for OT’s and edge rushers.  But with how much teams throw now, it’s more important than ever to have some coverage guys with length.  Hopkins easily jumped over our 3 best DB’s for the Hail Murray.  Tight Ends typically have a 5-6 inch height advantage over our DB’s and Milano.   Including Milano, Bills have 6 guys in coverage who are 6 feet or under.  Give me a 6’1”+ CB with long arms or a 6’3+ LB with coverage skills.  

[Motorin']

3 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

 

These are the guys I see that can play Big Nickel. 

• Hamsah Nasirildeen S FSU
• Jeremiah Owuso-Koramoah LB ND
• Jamar Johnson S Indiana
• Jacoby Stevens S LSU
• Tyrie Gillespie S Missouri
• Divine Deablo S Va Tech
• Richie Grant S UCF

 

Cox and Owusu-Koramoah can probably both ply Big Nickel but I'm not sure either will be around before we pick in the 2nd. I don't expect us to spend a 1st rder on a big Nickel, though I wouldn't be against it. Pats will be in 12 personnel 90% of the time.

 

I think the upside of taking a very fast / under sized OLB to play Big Nickel is that they also double as LB depth in case of injury. 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

6 hours ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

 

Hamsah Nasirildeen S FSU

 

A tackling machine. I feel Beane loves this kid too hence the FSU visit. Watch interviews of this kid, he talks about being played all over the field, including OLB, blitzing a lot, filling the gap etc. 

 

Hes got size and his wing span was over 80”, at 6’4” if he could play at 225 lbs, he’d be a great Big Nickle. Cover TEs drop into coverage is his strength. 
 

If he last past 55 I’d be surprised but he may slip to 61 and I’d love the pick.

This mock posted today has him falling to us in the 3rd

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/2021-nfl-mock-draft-weissman-6.0

[MJS]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:36 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Taron johnson 

 

And that's why it's a sub package because it's never going to see the field more than 20% of the snaps 

 

With nickel basically being our base, and johnson being so valuable

Is Johnson so valuable? I know he made a couple great plays down the stretch last year (one a historic play), but he is a liability sometimes in pass coverage. I like the way he plays the run, but I wouldn't mind if we had more options than just Taron Johnson.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he completely deserved all the hate he got early last year, but he does have his issues. And obviously McDermott agrees because he benched him against the Chiefs the first go around.

[MJS]

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not sure I agree with you on Taron's value. For the first half of last season he couldn't cover squat. He did round into some form later in the year but I think a Kyle Dugger type would have seen way more than 20% of the snaps last year. 

 

It is fundamentally the question though for the "big nickel" if you spend decent resource on the spot - and Kirby gave us good intel that if Dugger was there last year he would have been the pick - how much are you getting him on the field. 

 

To the OPs question a guy I like day 3 is Tariq Thompson out of San Diego State. Played safety in college but projects better as a dime backer in the NFL. He is a little bigger than Taron and a better hitter though also a little slower. At the spot you are picking him he would be much more of the 20% sub package type but he is an intriguing prospect. Just has a nose for the football.

 

I mean playing a 1 tech defensive tackle as a nickel would definitely classify him as a "big" nickel.

You beat me to it. My thoughts exactly. I actually like Taron Johnson, but he is totally replaceable and an upgrade there would help this defense a ton.

[ndirish1978]

3 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

I think the upside of taking a very fast / under sized OLB to play Big Nickel is that they also double as LB depth in case of injury. 

 

Agreed, the issue is when you're looking at players like the two LBs mentioned, they are good enough to be starters at LB on other teams and as such will be drafted early to fill those roles. I don't think we're spending a 1st on a player who will play 20-30% of the time just to have them around as a backup. Best scenario for the Bills is they find a starter at CB/DE in the 1st and pick up Nasirildeen in the 2nd/3rd. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

Is Johnson so valuable? I know he made a couple great plays down the stretch last year (one a historic play), but he is a liability sometimes in pass coverage. I like the way he plays the run, but I wouldn't mind if we had more options than just Taron Johnson.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he completely deserved all the hate he got early last year, but he does have his issues. And obviously McDermott agrees because he benched him against the Chiefs the first go around.

For how hard it is to play nickel. There are a lot worse options

 

And over three seasons he shown to be a above average cover corner. As McDermott puts it , it takes three guys to replace him when he gets hurt 

 

You say he's totally replaceable and an upgrade would help.. but there's not 10 nickel corners better than him in the NFL... It'd be hard to upgrade him day one

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Buffalo716

[MJS]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

For how hard it is to play nickel. There are a lot worse options

 

And over three seasons he shown to be a above average cover corner. As McDermott puts it , it takes three guys to replace him when he gets hurt 

 

You say he's totally replaceable and an upgrade would help.. but there's not 10 nickel corners better than him in the NFL... It'd be hard to upgrade him day one

Based on what? If he is a top 10 nickel corner, why did McDermott bench him?

 

I totally agree that you can do worse than Taron Johnson. If we go with him in 2021 I will not be shocked or disappointed. But he is just an average player. I don't see how anyone could think he is top 10 at his position. He makes plays sometimes. He gets beat fairly often. An upgrade would be nice at some point.

[Buffalo716]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

Based on what? If he is a top 10 nickel corner, why did McDermott bench him?

 

I totally agree that you can do worse than Taron Johnson. If we go with him in 2021 I will not be shocked or disappointed. But he is just an average player. I don't see how anyone could think he is top 10 at his position. He makes plays sometimes. He gets beat fairly often. An upgrade would be nice at some point.

Why did he get benched? Maybe to send a message like McDermott does.  Like hey cam Lewis can play over you.. he started in a slump.. but McDermott's praised him for 3 years

 

He played more snaps than any cornerback besides Tre White, if we should be upgrading anybody first it's Levi Wallace.. who is still fine in McDermotts system but not as valuable as Johnson

 

Again McDermott has always called Johnson extremely valuable and it takes three players to replace him when he gets hurt.. three players to do his job

Edited April 9, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

18 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

What about Jabril Cox? 

Great shout, he crossed my mind shortly after I posted this...he isn't undersized for a LB in today's NFL really so I think he could stick there, but he does have the athleticism to probably be a Big Nickel for someone. Would probably put him third on my list behind JOK and Moehrig.

 

Love him as a fit for the Bills and would be thrilled with him in the second or third rounds. There are obviously exceptions with any school, but I'm a big fan of LSU defenders in most instances.

[Old Coot]

The Big Nickle subs in a safety for the slot cover DB. From an X's & O's perspective how is the Big Nickle formation used?

 

Obviously it gives up something against the slot receiver.  Those guys are small speedy & shifty and can cut both ways.  They are harder to cover than a WR flanked out wide because the DB can't use the sideline defensively.  This is probably why the Big Nickle formation is usually a sub package used only against certain formations.

 

I can see that a Big Nickle DB formation would be better against the run than the standard Nickle.  Also better coverage matchups against the TE (hear that Travis) and an RB running a pass pattern.

 

Apparently the Big Nickle S is also better at blitzing off the edge than a standard DB.  In zone the Big Nickle can cover the middle for slants, low crossers and other shallow to medium routes.

 

Are there any other strengths or weaknesses of the Big Nickle formation

 

Here are some studies of the Big Nickle formation:

 

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/8/22/6052637/college-football-nickel-backs-lamarcus-joyner

 

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2014/6/23/5829794/will-the-cowboys-use-more-heavy-nickel-formations-in-2014

[CEN-CAL17]

20 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

This mock posted today has him falling to us in the 3rd

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/2021-nfl-mock-draft-weissman-6.0

You never know. That would be awesome. I personally think if this kid didn’t get hurt he’d be an early round 2 pick. Maybe there’s still red tape if he goes nearly round 4. I’ve seen him mocked many times late round 2