Big Nickel

[purple haze]

9 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Been thinking today, McD could really use a toy for a big nickel hybrid kinda guy. Last year it was Chinn and Dugger. Anybody like that coming out this year? I feel like it was this time last year that the Dugger name was starting to pop up around our team. Anybody got anything?

Owusu-Koramoah.  He probably goes long before 30.  But I can see Beane trading up to 20 or so.  Beane will move to get his guy, that and this draft is about quality not quantity. Can the guy help them right now?   Late round picks will have a hard time making this roster.

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

9 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Been thinking today, McD could really use a toy for a big nickel hybrid kinda guy. Last year it was Chinn and Dugger. Anybody like that coming out this year? I feel like it was this time last year that the Dugger name was starting to pop up around our team. Anybody got anything?

Yeah having a weapon like Jeremy Chinn (two-time Defensive Rookie of the Month last season) who has the athleticism and traits to run/cover like a safety and shed blocks/tackle like a LB would be huge for our defense. Also worth pointing out that McDermott and Beane drafted Shaq Thompson in Carolina despite already having Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis in their primes. I don't think Thompson was necessarily used as a Big Nickel specifically, but he represented that type of player who was a bit undersized but had the range and cover skills to stay on the field for all three downs.

 

In the 2021 draft, I would rank the Big Nickel options as follows (certainly some projection here as some guys won't have played in this capacity much): 

 

1) Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah- Hard to ask for a better prototype, one of my favorite prospects in the entire draft. Freak athlete who is undersized as a LB. Excellent in coverage even lining up over the slot WR at times and has a knack for creating turnovers and negative plays. Great instincts and takes good angles to the ball. Ferocious hitter who's always looking to dislodge the ball. Super impressive pro day backs up what I watched on Saturdays. 

2) Trevon Moehrig- One of the top safeties in the draft, but has the size and length that could project to a Buffalo Nickel type role. Great athlete who possesses corner-like cover skills. Excellent tackler/plus run defender who triggers quickly and navigates traffic well. Above average ball skills.

3) Chazz Surratt- Very raw prospect who only played 2 seasons at LB after converting from QB. Excellent see-and-chase LB with an ideal athletic profile and build to become a Buffalo Nickel if a team can be patient and develop him. His below-average instincts/angles/play diagnosis will likely improve as he continues to learn how to be a defender and he has tons of upside. A clear tier below/more boom or bust potential than the previous two guys though.

4) Talanoa Hufanga- Played all over the field for USC and was their ballhawk/difference maker in the back seven. Would need to add a bit more weight (currently 200 lbs), but his instincts/awareness and ability to recognize and jump routes stood out on film. Not a burner, but his game speed looked faster than his 40 time which would be my biggest concern. 

 

Honorable Mention- Hamsah Nasirildeen (has possibly the best combination of length/size for a Buffalo Nickel role in the class, but his underwhelming production at FSU and average pro day testing knocks him down the list for me), Trill Williams (played out of position at SU but has the size and upside to switch), JaCoby Stevens (I like LSU DBs and his size/big game experience/explosive numbers on his jumps at the pro day are impressive, but I worry about his speed in coverage, same with Divine Diablo who I think is even slower/less athletic).

 

There you go, just one guy's opinion, but as you can tell, I'm excited about adding a Buffalo Nickel/hybrid defender who can stay on the field with their athleticism on all downs and help us match up with some of the more athletic offenses in the league. Go Bills!

 

 

[JustWinPlease]

HAMSAH!

 

 

[Logic]

I hope we get a Big Nickel just so I never have to read another post or article or listen to another podcast about it.

 

End the madness! 😆

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Rumor was they wanted Duggers bad last year, I imagine the big nickel will be primarily a super athletic 220 pound LB 

 

 

Dugger is doing a lot more than LB stuff with the Pats. He did a lot of many different things. Which is what I think the Bills are going to ask of their big nickel, though it's impossible to be sure.

 

"Dugger’s Pro Football Focus grade sat behind only Antoine Winfield Jr. of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Kamren Curl of the Washington Football Team and Xavier McKinney of the New York Giants among safeties from his draft class.

 

"PFF credited Dugger for four quarterback hurries and 11 stops against the run. His coverage was held responsible 274 receiving yards and no touchdowns.

Dugger’s in-the-box role brought assignments versus tight ends and running backs. It was spelled by work in the slot as well as in the outfield. It saw him start seven of the final eight games while playing no fewer than 53% of the downs in the process.

 

"The longest look came in the finale versus the New York Jets. Dugger never left the defensive huddle over the course of New England’s 28-14 win. He served as an inside linebacker amid a series of injuries, with veteran arrival Adrian Phillips’ in-game exit being one of them."

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverthomas/2021/01/14/kyle-duggers-rookie-season-proved-to-be-a-hit-for-new-england-patriots/?sh=5551c7a74f5c

 

They rush him, he played slot corner, deep safety, LB, covering TEs and RBs ...

 

The Bills love to try to prevent QBs from getting easy pre-snap reads. Having a guy who can do nearly anything adds a lot of confusion to the pictures you can present.

 

Many on here seem to think that big nickel means "guy to cover tight ends." And that is very far from the only thing a guy like that would be used for, though it certainly is one of the possibilities for a good one.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Logic]

I think I saw a Jacoby Stevens mention somewhere in this thread already, but another mid to late round option I like is Jamien Sherwood out of Auburn.

 

6’2”, 220 lbs. Seems to have that tweener skill set. Can cover and hit.

 

Not sure what round he’ll go in, but I doubt he’ll break the bank.
 

 

[glazeduck]

I feel about the Big Nickel a lot like I feel about drafting a 1T. We could certainly use it, bordering on calling it a need, but unless it's a truly special player (would've LOVED to somehow get Simmons last year), I don't think it's something worth throwing a valuable pick at. I could probably be convinced that JOK is special enough to take at 30, but he's not worth trading up for. Behind him though...

• Naz in the 3rd (or possibly w/ a trade back from 61) would potentially be interesting (but probably not happening)
• Mukuamu possibly trading back from our 3?
• Stephens and Deablo maybe with one of our 5s?

The big Nickel is a fun concept that makes a lot of sense as a counter to a lot of the biggest offensive trends in football, and obviously McD is more or less the inventor of the role, so there's plenty of logical connections that are easy to make for why we'd do it. But just because a guy is too small to play linebacker and too slow to be a true safety doesn't mean he's going to automatically be a fit for that role. If a guy we like is at or near the top of the board for one of our picks and there's not a more glaring need for it, by all means let's do it. But I think the hype around here of just assuming it's on the shopping list because we don't have one is maybe getting out over our skis a little much. 

[John from Riverside]

I def want this type of player on the team....the question is what kind of resource do you allocate?

 

For instance....a first round pick needs to see a lot of snaps to make it worth the investment

[YattaOkasan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I love his size. I was a little disappointed with his tape though. He looked like a big athletic guy who didn't really know how to play football to me. Interested to hear anyone else's views on him because I know some decent evaluators who are high on him. Maybe I watched the wrong games but I was lukewarm at best.

I still need to get to Hamsah's tape but his reps at senior bowl looked good.  He did well in press and had the physicality i would want in big nickel (deployed against 2 TE sets).  Overall FSU seems to not be coaching talent well lately so he may have more room to grow more than most.  Ill get back to you after i watch some of the available youtube tape.

[OldTimer1960]

44 minutes ago, glazeduck said:

I feel about the Big Nickel a lot like I feel about drafting a 1T. We could certainly use it, bordering on calling it a need, but unless it's a truly special player (would've LOVED to somehow get Simmons last year), I don't think it's something worth throwing a valuable pick at. I could probably be convinced that JOK is special enough to take at 30, but he's not worth trading up for. Behind him though...

• Naz in the 3rd (or possibly w/ a trade back from 61) would potentially be interesting (but probably not happening)
• Mukuamu possibly trading back from our 3?
• Stephens and Deablo maybe with one of our 5s?

The big Nickel is a fun concept that makes a lot of sense as a counter to a lot of the biggest offensive trends in football, and obviously McD is more or less the inventor of the role, so there's plenty of logical connections that are easy to make for why we'd do it. But just because a guy is too small to play linebacker and too slow to be a true safety doesn't mean he's going to automatically be a fit for that role. If a guy we like is at or near the top of the board for one of our picks and there's not a more glaring need for it, by all means let's do it. But I think the hype around here of just assuming it's on the shopping list because we don't have one is maybe getting out over our skis a little much. 

This is a great post.  "Big Nickel" carries some magical connotation, but the idea is a bigger extra DB who can cover and play the run well is better than a smaller smaller extra DB.  Having someone who can do both makes the defense a little less vulnerable against the run when in nickel.

 

The "Big Nickel" is only special if you have a special player to play it - like pretty much every position.

[YattaOkasan]

@GunnerBill I see some of your concerns now.  I would not ever trust him in a deep zone and I would be a bit worried with him covering a TE through a seam.  Hopefully those could be coached a bit.  However, him cover hook/curl and flats looked really good.  I also think he showed really good run fits when lined up at the LOS.  I def see your concerns though cause he gave up some really big plays.

[njbuff]

Would the Bills actually draft guys with their first two picks this year with names we cannot pronounce?

 

The CB from Syracuse who is climbing upward big time and the “whatever” position player from FSU.

 

😂😂😂😂

[glazeduck]

28 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

This is a great post.  "Big Nickel" carries some magical connotation, but the idea is a bigger extra DB who can cover and play the run well is better than a smaller smaller extra DB.  Having someone who can do both makes the defense a little less vulnerable against the run when in nickel.

 

The "Big Nickel" is only special if you have a special player to play it - like pretty much every position.

It doesn't *have* to be a special player -- most players on every roster aren't special players. But when you have a capable nickel DB in TJ already, other more pressing needs and aren't just stocked to the gills with picks, it becomes more of a luxury pick at a point where it's hard to justify taking a luxury pick.

 

That's my 2 cents. Fun idea, obvious benefits when done right, not worth force-fitting. 

[The Jokeman]

45 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I def want this type of player on the team....the question is what kind of resource do you allocate?

 

For instance....a first round pick needs to see a lot of snaps to make it worth the investment

In Carolina Shaq Thompson filled this role and he was a 1st Round pick, 25th overall in 2015. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by The Jokeman

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

In Carolina Shaq Thompson filled this role and he was a 1st Round pick, 25th overall in 2015. 

Right.....but what was Shaq Thompson's snap count.......starter right?

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Right.....but what was Shaq Thompson's snap count.......starter right?

As a rookie he was in 33.18% of the Panther's defensive snaps. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2015-snap-counts.htm

[glazeduck]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Right.....but what was Shaq Thompson's snap count.......starter right?

Isaiah Simmons' snap count was 30ish% and that guys' one of the freakiest athletes to ever get drafted. Better draft capitol than Thompson too. 

 

That's not starter numbers. 

[GunnerBill]

59 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I still need to get to Hamsah's tape but his reps at senior bowl looked good.  He did well in press and had the physicality i would want in big nickel (deployed against 2 TE sets).  Overall FSU seems to not be coaching talent well lately so he may have more room to grow more than most.  Ill get back to you after i watch some of the available youtube tape.

 

Agree with your FSU point. To me he just looks a bit lost out there. There is definitely potential, he is big and athletic... but right now, not sure how much of a footballer he is. And so that limits how high I'd be prepared to take him probably to the extent that someone else will take him before it gets to the spot where I'd be comfortable if that makes sense...

[BuffaloRebound]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

This is a great post.  "Big Nickel" carries some magical connotation, but the idea is a bigger extra DB who can cover and play the run well is better than a smaller smaller extra DB.  Having someone who can do both makes the defense a little less vulnerable against the run when in nickel.

 

The "Big Nickel" is only special if you have a special player to play it - like pretty much every position.

Yep.  JOK would definitely help this defense but so would any bigger player in the back 7 who can cover.  With how advanced and precise passing games have become, you need some length and size in the back 7.  Edmunds is our only back 7 player with length and size but he has zero ball skills.  

[NewEra]

I really hope that JOK falls to 30.  Starting to feel like we should trade up for him if he slides to mid 20s.  He could unlock this D