nucci Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: yep. You said it. They would have to expand to major league size right? from 20k seats to 45 k seats. There you have it. Do you know the cost of doing that? The difference I am trying to tell you is It would already be set up size wise for MLB. Thats all I am saying. Was Location and not big market place part of it or even most of it? Yes.. But seating had a role. ok, but the reason we didn't get a team was not because of the stadium. It was because Rich backed out when he found out the cost was $95M 1
BillStime Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 Why spend a billion dollars on a new stadium in Orchard Park? Our market is North. Bring the stadium closer to Southern Ontario - and downtown fits the bill. We need to use mass transit and commuter rail that connects in Buffalo. We will never get money for a new/renovated stadium in OP AND mass transit. Have you ever been to a game in Seattle? The stadium is aligned with a very cool mixed use neighborhood (hotels, restaurants, condos, offices, retail) that lead right into the heart of the city. Game days are SO MUCH fun - bar hopping, partying and seeing tons of people everywhere. Buffalo will adjust... and the Pegula's need a multi-function use stadium to keep revenue coming in to stay competitive in the NFL; hence, its not a bad idea to couple the stadium with convention space - Buffalo "needs" a new one. 2 1
DrDawkinstein Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: The "build new convention centers" call form some reason won't die. This topic has been put to rest countless times, one would think. This country is flooded with convention space. Buffalo has plenty (and isn't fully booked). Pegula can pay for whatever stadium he can image. Let's leave the state's taxpayers out of this. Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either. It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner. If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too. 1 1
LabattBlue Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) Short but good read of the proposed Lancaster Domed Stadium(Ed Cottrell) from the 1960's, it never getting built at that location(current stadium built instead in OP), and the subsequent lawsuit by Cottrell. The area of Lancaster where the stadium was to be built is now filled with endless subdivisions of houses and patio homes. Over the years, I knew some of the story, but never knew this would have been the 2nd domed stadium after the Astrodome, built in the world. http://ampoleagle.com/when-it-comes-to-a-new-stadium-we-should-learn-from-the-past-p8386-208.htm Edited March 31, 2021 by BTB 2
SectionC3 Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 49 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said: yep. You said it. They would have to expand to major league size right? from 20k seats to 45 k seats. There you have it. Do you know the cost of doing that? The difference I am trying to tell you is It would already be set up size wise for MLB. Thats all I am saying. Was Location and not big market place part of it or even most of it? Yes.. But seating had a role. Not really. That’s what the third deck is for. The issue with MLB is that our market can’t support a franchise.
May Day 10 Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 Pilot Field was originally designed, ready to remove the green roof and put in another deck and also expand the right field bleachers into more and permanent seating. Buffalo was a finalist, along with Denver, Washington DC, and (Orlando/Miami/St Petersburg) (it was a no secret 1 of the teams was going to be put in a Florida location, it was just a matter of which one. Right around the time that the Finalists were announced, I believe Rich publicly stated reservations about the cost of doing business as an MLB team including the $95 million expansion fee. I dont believe the Riches really pursued it down to the wire. It would have been a disaster here anyway and they may have been relocated by now. Buffalo is/was too small for MLB with how the economics of the league are set. It would be a dream for me and I would almost certainly be a STH. The corporate dollars are not there, and the RSN fees would not be anywhere near competitive. The Riches have enough $ to sustain losses, but they don't really seem to be willing to get their noses dirty (were very silent during Sabres and Bills sales). I still hold out hope for a miracle of a fortune 500 or 2 downtown with a revival and an MLB team. Its a little known story, but apparently before all that, the Riches had dinner with the owner of the SF Giants. The Giants' owner was bitching about Candlestick Park as well as the weather they had to deal with playing there. The riches proposed moving or sharing the team in Buffalo and calling them the New York Giants. There were a few meetings on that but it didnt get too far. 1
PrimeTime101 Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, SectionC3 said: Not really. That’s what the third deck is for. The issue with MLB is that our market can’t support a franchise. so a third deck over 100% more 22k more then the rest of the ballpark? no... lol This was highly suggested and talked about on other forums and not the main op topic here. 2 hours ago, nucci said: ok, but the reason we didn't get a team was not because of the stadium. It was because Rich backed out when he found out the cost was $95M this was part of it too.
dpberr Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either. It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner. If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too. You need to fill that venue with "stuff" as many of the 365 days you can to make any money. Sports. Jehovah's witnesses. Concerts. High school graduations. Anything, everything.
Mr. WEO Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 18 hours ago, jeremy2020 said: I don't think they have much choice. I believe the NFL is pushing hard for them to get a more modern stadium. So the question is should the team move or should they get get a new stadium/update the existing? There is no option C. "leave it alone". So the owner who "saved" the Bills from moving is going to, a handful of years after buying the team and before his first stadium lease is up, credibly threaten to move the team? LOL, I love this place! 3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: Personally, I agree. And it would be smartest for Pegula to fund it all himself, and then he'd be able to CONTROL it all himself. But I dont think that will happen either. It's not just the Convention Center aspect of it. It's being able to use the building outside of Bills games in any manner. If they build a new stadium downtown, and it is an enclosed building, there is no reason the MAC Football Championship shouldnt be moved there. Ditch Ford Field. Could probably get another Bowl game there too. Every public entity foolish enough to build a new convention center has gone with the same mantra: "just fill it with events!" And stadiums are rarely used anywhere for a solid schedule of stadium sized events. Buffalo is not a destination, so there are few convention events to make a dent in the costs of such a center. The Bills announced today that they have "revised" that "study" they did a while ago about the stadium issue, taking COVID economy into consideration. My guess is that their first plan/money grab was bold enough to get them laughed out of the room these days. Here's the only deal the county (NYS can't afford this nonsense) should listen to: whatever % ofd the financing the billionaire couple seeks from the public should be paid for in a matching % ownership by the public. This is the model the NFL should approve of going forward. It has been known for years that there is no sigbnificant financial benefit for the public financing of stadiums, only cost. Let the public share in the revenue or pay for it yourselves.... 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: The "build new convention centers" call form some reason won't die. This topic has been put to rest countless times, one would think. This country is flooded with convention space. Buffalo has plenty (and isn't fully booked). Pegula can pay for whatever stadium he can image. Let's leave the state's taxpayers out of this. It doesn't have to be one or the other. For a smaller city like Buffalo, it might be better if the facility could be used for multiple functions. This doesn't mean the main stadium 'room' would be used for conventions, but you could imagine a facility in which the central concourse, restrooms, snack bars, restaurants could be shared with adjacent Convention-sized spaces. This would allow the building to be used more than a dozen or so times a year. Flexibility is the key. And...it could be that the Pegulas would fund it and charge the Convention Committee (or the City) rent to use their facility. It might be a public/private partnership win:win revenue stream for everyone. Edited March 31, 2021 by SoCal Deek 1 1
Mr. WEO Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: It doesn't have to be one or the other. For a smaller city like Buffalo, it might be better if the facility could be used for multiple functions. This doesn't mean the main stadium 'room' would be used for conventions, but you could imagine a facility in which the central concourse, restrooms, snack bars, restaurants could be shared with adjacent Convention-sized spaces. This would allow the building to be used more than a dozen or so times a year. Flexibility is the key. And...it could be that the Pegulas would fund it and charge the Convention Committee (or the City) rent to use their facility. It might be a public/private partnership win:win revenue stream for everyone. There already is an under utilized Buffalo Convention Center. Plus such a "flexible" venue being used another couple dozen times a year is the definition of a financial disaster. The country has a glut of convention square footage--much of it in far more attractive conventioning cities than Buffalo---and much of int lays empty for the vast majority of the year. Convention centers are one of the worst investments of public money ever conceived. This gets mentioned every time a "downtown stadium" is discussed. It's committing one boondoggle (public financing of a stadium) and then compounding it infinitely into a completely predictable financial unforced error. Pegula can just "drill another well", right? Let him do so and build a nice new stadium if he wants one. Unlike the County and State--he has the money to do it (or the access to funds needed). Edited March 31, 2021 by Mr. WEO 2
Malazan Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: So the owner who "saved" the Bills from moving is going to, a handful of years after buying the team and before his first stadium lease is up, credibly threaten to move the team? LOL, I love this place! Why are you such a dimbulb? What did your parents do to you? We're all really tired of having to explain simple concepts to you while you run around here claiming to be smrt. 1 1 1
Southern_Bills Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 Before we get started, I'm not a resident of Buffalo and the few games I catch in Buffalo tickets prices don't greatly effect me. Is it worth it to you guys to take on the extra taxes and increased prices for the stadium? Or is it pretty much the NFL wants something done so you may as well go all out if you have to go halfway at a minimum? Again I have no dog in the fight so my opinion really doesn't matter, I'm just curious. I live in South Alabama so the taxes in Buffalo will definitely not effect me lol.
scuba guy Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 5 hours ago, teef said: you're preaching to the choir. i also live in monroe county, (i think we're the second in the state), the family has a place in sackets harbor, and i have a building in ontario county. it's gross. soon i'll be paying tax on 3 places in NY. i was more just wondering why your taxes went up so much. i just assumed you they were adjusted to your purchase price. Purchase price was the other guy from Buffalo not me but taxes are gross in ny
Mr. WEO Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 20 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said: Why are you such a dimbulb? What did your parents do to you? We're all really tired of having to explain simple concepts to you while you run around here claiming to be smrt. So you think it's possible he would even threaten to move the team under any circumstance? What my parents did for me is bring me into a world where I can enjoy the printed thoughts of people such as yourself. I am eternally grateful to them for this! And where did I claim to be "smart". lol 1
Steptide Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 20 hours ago, Logic said: If they're going to build a new stadium, I hope it stays in Orchard Park. I can't remember which team's new stadium it was (Pittsburgh? Houston?), but they just built it on what used to be the parking lot of the old stadium, and turned the site of the old stadium into the new parking lot. I'm all for whatever it takes to keep the Bills in Buffalo long term, but game days sure would lose a lot of their charm and what makes them special if the stadium left Orchard Park for downtown Buffalo. Having been to away games in city centers, I can say that the Bills game day experience is much, much, MUCH more fun and unique and special. Keep the Bills in Orchard Park. I'm down with this. The NFL just wants a new sexy stadium to look good on TV, while bills fans want the game day experience. I think you could get the best of both worlds doing it this way
purple haze Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, May Day 10 said: I would prefer renovating the current stadium. I love the sightlines and I believe the NFL experience there is truly unique and it is a draw for fans of other teams. We have history there. I like the elements. I love Bills games, they are hopefully going to remain competitive and game experience will be that much better. I am proud of what we have and every year that is preserved it will be more and more special and more of an attraction. Second choice is an outdoor stadium with more of a roof in an adjacent parking lot in OP. Third choice would be the outdoor stadium with roof downtown. Fourth choice is an indoor stadium but with an open-air feel to it with natural light and a unique setup (that would be downtown no matter what IMO) Last choice would be a Ford Field style sterile indoor where it feels like the games are played in about 80% light and every single game looks the same, devoid of atmosphere. I dont think retractable is a realistic possibility for the cost and the climate. I hate watching games at Ford Field. Looks like a mausoleum. Low light and sterile. I keep seeing others talk about a roof to attract other events. There aren't that many other events to put in a football stadium. And to add a retractable roof raises the costs exponentially for all of those who worry about the price tag and its effect on local taxes. Build a stadium like Seattle with the overhangs on either side. Edited April 1, 2021 by purple haze 1 1 2
purple haze Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 5 hours ago, BillStime said: Why spend a billion dollars on a new stadium in Orchard Park? Our market is North. Bring the stadium closer to Southern Ontario - and downtown fits the bill. We need to use mass transit and commuter rail that connects in Buffalo. We will never get money for a new/renovated stadium in OP AND mass transit. Have you ever been to a game in Seattle? The stadium is aligned with a very cool mixed use neighborhood (hotels, restaurants, condos, offices, retail) that lead right into the heart of the city. Game days are SO MUCH fun - bar hopping, partying and seeing tons of people everywhere. Buffalo will adjust... and the Pegula's need a multi-function use stadium to keep revenue coming in to stay competitive in the NFL; hence, its not a bad idea to couple the stadium with convention space - Buffalo "needs" a new one. Adjust kicking and screaming. In past years Buffalo was not known for forward thinking. Of course a new stadium needs to happen. Love the stadium, but it's old and to keep putting money into it doesn't really make sense. Eventually it won't help. It's already been said that because of the original architecture the concourses can't be expanded. Folks can always find a place to get fall down drunk, bang in a parking lot and jump through a table. It doesn't bother me, but there are folks who don't go to games because of it. My bet is the Bills, as a business entity wants to lose the antics. Get ready to go downtown in the next several years. 4
Nitro Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 The Bills and a new stadium has been an issue since Frank Sedita was mayor. A downtown stadium has its merits. I live in Indy and Lucas Oil Stadium is used year around in conjunction with the convention center. I understand the position of those who want it kept in Orchard Park. Whatever is decided, get it done. NYS is notorious for foot dragging on WNY projects.
Nitro Posted April 1, 2021 Posted April 1, 2021 21 minutes ago, purple haze said: I hate watching games at Ford Field. Looks like a mausoleum. Low light and sterile. I keep seeing others talk about a roof to attract other events. There aren't that many other events to put in a football stadium. And to add a retractable roof raises the costs exponentially for all of those who worry about the price tag and its effect on local taxes. Build a stadium like Seattle with the overhangs on either side. I disagree. There are plenty events to put in a football stadium specially downtown. Indy hosts large conventions, NCAA basketball games, concerts, marching band competitions and GEN CON among the numerous uses. It hinges on having a convention center close by. Indy downtown has exploded in hotels, restaurants, bars, condos and apartments. It could be a boon for Buffalo.
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