Bills opening stadium discussions with NYS and Erie County

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

NF-USA is a dump.  I went a few years ago to a concert at the Rapids theater a few years ago and it was a sad gauntlet driving through town.  Even the K of C was boarded up.

I think everyone would agree. But with such a small geographic footprint and really low real estate prices I’ve always thought it was ripe for a real estate group to swoop in and master plan a major world-class development. The centerpiece would be the stadium with convention center. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I think everyone would agree. But with such a small geographic footprint and really low real estate prices I’ve always thought it was ripe for a real estate group to swoop in and master plan a major world-class development. The centerpiece would be the stadium with convention center. 

 

The problem is that that scenario exists already right across the border in the other NF.  NFNY has been competing and failing with that town for years.  Investors have voted on its future:

 

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The problem is that that scenario exists already right across the border in the other NF.  NFNY has been competing and failing with that town for years.  Investors have voted on its future:

 

That’s true of course. But there’s still a huge opportunity on the NY side should someone want to invest in it. What’s needed is a catalyst project that cannot be created elsewhere... like an NFL Stadium. Heck, the new Los Angeles stadium is in Inglewood! If you know anything about LA you’d know that the area immediately surrounding it has been a dump for many decades. Remember, this conversation started from the convention possibilities, and I still maintain The Falls is the one national attraction that just sitting there. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s true of course. But there’s still a huge opportunity on the NY side should someone want to invest in it. What’s needed is a catalyst project that cannot be created elsewhere... like an NFL Stadium. Heck, the new Los Angeles stadium is in Inglewood! If you know anything about LA you’d know that the area immediately surrounding it has been a dump for many decades. Remember, this conversation started from the convention possibilities, and I still maintain The Falls is the one national attraction that just sitting there. 

 

 

Inglewood was the home of the Fabulous Western Forum for years!  Plus LAX is right there--even with the new stadium, it's not a garden spot...

 

 

[ALF]

Whatever the Pegulas decide I'm fine with . All that matters to me is that the Bills stay in WNY. Less expensive renovations can work as the minimum.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, ALF said:

Whatever the Pegulas decide I'm fine with . All that matters to me is that the Bills stay in WNY. Less expensive renovations can work as the minimum.

I'm sure everyone feels the same. They could play anywhere in Western New York. I don't care. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Inglewood was the home of the Fabulous Western Forum for years!  Plus LAX is right there--even with the new stadium, it's not a garden spot...

 

 

The Forum is still there and is a concert venue now. The new stadium is next to it on the site of old "Hollywood Park" horse track.  And yes, the site is so close the glide path for LAX that they had to build the stadium bowl down into the ground so as to keep the roof under FAA height restrictions.  The project has transformed the entire area, with new multi-family housing units going up all around the development itself.  I could see something like (on a much smaller scale) happening in Niagara Falls....but as usual politics and carpetbagger greed will get in the way.  That's the way these things always seem to go back there.

[corta765]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:50 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Why can't the concerts play at an outdoor stadium in Spring/Summer/Fall?  How many conferences are held on the field of any domed football stadium?

 

If you take a look at some of the biggest tours in the nation they have been using football stadiums (Taylor Swift, Metallica, etc). Buffalo has been passed by for bigger cities because of size. Again read the study yourself to see the differences. Summer and Fall they do most of the events at the Ralph as Winter and Spring are notoriously bad for outdoor events that don't involve the Bills. You gain those two seasons back for use if it is indoor. One of the perks people don't talk about is stadium tours are really popular for new venues or in general (believe it or not you can tour the Ralph.. well could pre COVID I meant to do that). Downtown you can get many more people who are interest.

 

I am not trying to sway your opinion as much as just point out some of the advantages that have been reported with indoor use. Truthfully nothing is better as a Bills fan then a 60 degree day in October watching them play. But if a new stadium comes to pass I want them to explore every possibility and use especially because tax payers will feel it.

30 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Forum is still there and is a concert venue now. The new stadium is next to it on the site of old "Hollywood Park" horse track.  And yes, the site is so close the glide path for LAX that they had to build the stadium bowl down into the ground so as to keep the roof under FAA height restrictions.  The project has transformed the entire area, with new multi-family housing units going up all around the development itself.  I could see something like (on a much smaller scale) happening in Niagara Falls....but as usual politics and carpetbagger greed will get in the way.  That's the way these things always seem to go back there.

 

 

That honestly would be super cool but I doubt it ever happens now that the Pegulas own the team and the city of Buffalo has made the overtures it has to have the team downtown. Had we had different ownership that wanted the Canadian market more I think that was a real possibility.

[billykay]

On 4/5/2021 at 9:32 PM, Augie said:

 

I love the stadium where it is and how it is. BUT.....as I posted earlier, if my car needs repairs that cost roughly half the cost of a new car, I’m getting a new car. 

 

We’ve been missing @Kirby Jackson for a while, but he has often explained the reasons a new stadium and the revenue streams should be expected. He knows what he’s talking about, and it made sense to me. 

 

I don’t go to an NFL game for fancy restaurants, but a former client/buddy invited us to join him at his season tix in Jacksonville. Not NYC, Dallas, Chicago or LA, but Jacksonville. The seats were outdoors, but attached to an indoor dining area where beer, wine and food were “free”. (Mixed drinks were extra.) This was not hot dogs and Bud Lite, we’re talking sautéed sea bass and quality wines. In Jacksonville! He used it to impress clients and staff, and US, and it worked! Face value of tix were $380 and that was 10-15 years ago.

 

I’ve never been to KC for a game, but hope to correct that!  Lambeau is nothing special other than the surrounding neighborhoods being so cool. The stadium is as Plain Jane as the FSU stadium. 

 

I try to attend one home game and one road game each year. The ticket price is a drop in the bucket compared to airfare, hotels, car rentals, restaurants, etc. I FULLY understand that the burden is on the season ticket holders who will feel the most pain. I get that and I feel their pain. I’ll do my part by paying more when I buy their unused seats when I come to town. 

 

The Minneapolis stadium looks AWESOME! I’d love to go to a game there. Great city! The old stadium was a dump but they got a SB that left me wanting.....

 

 

.

 

What happened to Kirby. Always enjoyed his contributions.

[May Day 10]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s true of course. But there’s still a huge opportunity on the NY side should someone want to invest in it. What’s needed is a catalyst project that cannot be created elsewhere... like an NFL Stadium. Heck, the new Los Angeles stadium is in Inglewood! If you know anything about LA you’d know that the area immediately surrounding it has been a dump for many decades. Remember, this conversation started from the convention possibilities, and I still maintain The Falls is the one national attraction that just sitting there. 

 

NFL Stadiums do nothing to rejuvenate a municipality.  Sometimes owners pine for a 'retail shopping area' built within the stadium funding which they directly benefit from.  That can be built without a stadium.

 

If you have 70,000 people in downtown NF coming or leaving around the same window of time, it is going to be a horrific traffic nightmare.  It is a landlocked peninsula of sorts without good arteries to get out of there (and Im sure the GI bridges and NF Boulevard would also be at a standstill) and people would be jumping in the river instead of sitting on the Robert Moses.  I guess if we pay more billions we can just build highways.  

 

Niagara Falls has been mismanaged by corruption and terrible politicians for decades and decades.  Gifting them a football stadium would change nothing.  Imagining Niagara County ponying up any percentage of the money also seems like an impossibility.  

 

 

A stadium wouldnt help downtown either.  You need a Fortune 500 company (or 2) to headquarter down there.  It is cart before the horse.  An MLB stadium with 81 dates could be a different story if there were decent attendance.  I also think a nice amphitheater would work out better than a Football Stadium because you would get a ton of dates between May and September.  You would put Darien Lake out of business, attract new acts, and other possibilities.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, billykay said:

What happened to Kirby. Always enjoyed his contributions.

 

Reached out to him recently and he’s fine.  Taking a break, but all is well. 

 

.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Augie

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

 

NFL Stadiums do nothing to rejuvenate a municipality.  Sometimes owners pine for a 'retail shopping area' built within the stadium funding which they directly benefit from.  That can be built without a stadium.

 

If you have 70,000 people in downtown NF coming or leaving around the same window of time, it is going to be a horrific traffic nightmare.  It is a landlocked peninsula of sorts without good arteries to get out of there (and Im sure the GI bridges and NF Boulevard would also be at a standstill) and people would be jumping in the river instead of sitting on the Robert Moses.  I guess if we pay more billions we can just build highways.  

 

Niagara Falls has been mismanaged by corruption and terrible politicians for decades and decades.  Gifting them a football stadium would change nothing.  Imagining Niagara County ponying up any percentage of the money also seems like an impossibility.  

 

 

A stadium wouldnt help downtown either.  You need a Fortune 500 company (or 2) to headquarter down there.  It is cart before the horse.  An MLB stadium with 81 dates could be a different story if there were decent attendance.  I also think a nice amphitheater would work out better than a Football Stadium because you would get a ton of dates between May and September.  You would put Darien Lake out of business, attract new acts, and other possibilities.

All of that is the glass half full attitude that so often dominates these conversations...which is understandable.  But this particular vein of this thread was about constructing a convention center along with the Stadium.  My point was/is that the ONLY place this sort of mixed use development could ever be viable is at a regional destination spot, like Niagara Falls.  Very few people would come from out of state to Downtown Buffalo for a convention. But, if you tie it to a natural venue like The Falls you'd get people who'd bring their spouse, and make a few days of it.  And regarding the traffic, you have to remember that people would be come to the site from multiple directions, including Canada....which is another fan base the Bills naturally want to tap into.  Traffic would not be the biggest hurdle.  There are plenty of places with a lot worse traffic than WNY.

Edited April 7, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[Saxum]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The fact the American side of The Falls is so under utilized has always been a mystery to me.

 

Not surprising.  Love Canal is just most well known problem.  It is the Siberia of New York State.

[BillsfaninSB]

On 4/5/2021 at 4:40 PM, SoCal Deek said:

The cost depends on a lot of things but you first have to realize the roof impacts more than the roof itself. It changes the design of the entire upper deck as well as the building’s foundations. My figure was purely hypothetical but it will surely be in the many millions, so pick a figure that sounds right to you and then apply the same math that I did. I’m guessing You’ll still end up with a significant cost per ticket surcharge. Then, you’ll have to decide if you think people would pay it. That’s exactly what the stadium developer will do. It’s not magic or emotion. It’s math.

Engineering for snow and wind loads is significant.   The roof would have to be really stout in WNY due to the required safety factors used in the calcs.  Like you said above, that has a cascading affect on superstructure, foundations, geotechnical prep, etc.

 

It makes a massive dent in the budget and cost analysis needs to be done.

 

I think a more economical stadium like Heinz Field makes more sense.   Most of our AFC rivals this side of the Mississippi play outdoors.   I think the Bills would be at a disadvantage on the road. 

[Mr. WEO]

18 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Forum is still there and is a concert venue now. The new stadium is next to it on the site of old "Hollywood Park" horse track.  And yes, the site is so close the glide path for LAX that they had to build the stadium bowl down into the ground so as to keep the roof under FAA height restrictions.  The project has transformed the entire area, with new multi-family housing units going up all around the development itself.  I could see something like (on a much smaller scale) happening in Niagara Falls....but as usual politics and carpetbagger greed will get in the way.  That's the way these things always seem to go back there.

 

 

People want to live in LA...

[Mr. WEO]

17 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

If you take a look at some of the biggest tours in the nation they have been using football stadiums (Taylor Swift, Metallica, etc). Buffalo has been passed by for bigger cities because of size. Again read the study yourself to see the differences. Summer and Fall they do most of the events at the Ralph as Winter and Spring are notoriously bad for outdoor events that don't involve the Bills. You gain those two seasons back for use if it is indoor. One of the perks people don't talk about is stadium tours are really popular for new venues or in general (believe it or not you can tour the Ralph.. well could pre COVID I meant to do that). Downtown you can get many more people who are interest.

 

I am not trying to sway your opinion as much as just point out some of the advantages that have been reported with indoor use. Truthfully nothing is better as a Bills fan then a 60 degree day in October watching them play. But if a new stadium comes to pass I want them to explore every possibility and use especially because tax payers will feel it.

 

 

That honestly would be super cool but I doubt it ever happens now that the Pegulas own the team and the city of Buffalo has made the overtures it has to have the team downtown. Had we had different ownership that wanted the Canadian market more I think that was a real possibility.

 

A handful of concerts over even 4 seasons would do nothing to offset the debt  service for a domed stadium.  The Pegulas aren't going to move the Bills anywhere so make them pay for a stadium.  They have the funds.  Erie and NYS are running huge deficits.  

[May Day 10]

IMO, the best scenario in both terms of cost and logistics is to build a new, reasonably priced stadium somewhere on the current campus/nearby lots.  They should have an overhanging roof of some sort with the thing engineered to reduce wind.  The infrastructure is there, its county land.  The delta between a renovation and a new facility would not be large enough to justify a renovation.

[boater]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

A handful of concerts over even 4 seasons would do nothing to offset the debt  service for a domed stadium.  The Pegulas aren't going to move the Bills anywhere so make them pay for a stadium.  They have the funds.  Erie and NYS are running huge deficits.  

So naive. The Pegulas aren't fools with a bottomless checkbook. They are pragmatic and have limited funds, especially with a Biden admin declaring war on fossil fuels.

[purple haze]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:40 AM, SoCal Deek said:

The Forum is still there and is a concert venue now. The new stadium is next to it on the site of old "Hollywood Park" horse track.  And yes, the site is so close the glide path for LAX that they had to build the stadium bowl down into the ground so as to keep the roof under FAA height restrictions.  The project has transformed the entire area, with new multi-family housing units going up all around the development itself.  I could see something like (on a much smaller scale) happening in Niagara Falls....but as usual politics and carpetbagger greed will get in the way.  That's the way these things always seem to go back there.

Transformed the area for whom?  The people who have lived there for decades will be pushed out eventually.  Another gentrification grab.  

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, boater said:

So naive. The Pegulas aren't fools with a bottomless checkbook. They are pragmatic and have limited funds, especially with a Biden admin declaring war on fossil fuels.

 

"Limited"?  Who's the naïve one?  I guess you could say Bill Gates has limited funds.  Jeff Bezos too, because it's a correct statement.

 

Pegula clearly has the cash on hand as well as access to unlimited capital if he prefers to finance it.  He's not in the red, he's billions ahead.  If he's a little short this month, he could borrow from the NFL.  Maybe he could ask Stan Kreonke how to do it.  He privately funded a stadium worth more than Pegula.  OR he could ask the Owners of the Jets and Giants how they did it.

 

He's no fool, true--he would rather we pay for this.  imagine if the government would build you a nice new mansion.  Would that be amazing??--and VERY pragmatic of you!. 

 

It's thinking like yours that encourages politicians to spend your money on billionaires' desires.