All-In This Year...Nothing Less For the Lombardi

[stinky finger]

51 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I’m interested in how the Bills respond to playing under the weight of raised expectations. It’s an entirely different kind of pressure. I think back to that ‘89 team that didn’t respond well at all, although the events of that season galvanized them for the success that followed. I’m confident, however, that we have more mature leadership at the key positions, though, so that should mitigate the issue. 

 

Good point. I also think the continuity is huge. 

[Rk_Bills86]

Are we even All-In just for this year? We're set to basically take BPA or only aim for highest on our board for this draft. We have room to work on important extensions for next off-season. FA next year is going to be absolutely flooded with talent. For the first time in my memory we have no true glaring "hole" on the team. 

 

This is the type of team building we haven't seen in 30ish years and the first since the Cap was put in. We are set to be major players for years to come. 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Nothing less than a Lombardi will suffice, but it doesn’t look like the FO is going qll

in on winning the Lombardi this year.  That is definitely their goal.....but they aren’t all in.  If they were they’d restructured dawkins, poyer and Diggs to create more space and would have signed a pass rusher.  They still have their eye on sustained success.....which is fine.....until you don’t win a super bowl in the next 5 years. 
 

Maybe we can win one without “going all in”.  Sure hope so, cuz this regime is playing the long game so far

The long game/ sustained success is exactly what Beane is all about, he is pragmatic, but will do a DIggs type of deal as he see the correct opportunity presenting itself. Some folk here refuse to understand this it would appear. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

The Bills are at the stage where their focus needs to be on ruthless acquisition of talent. We're not just trying to be good. We're on the cusp of winning a Super Bowl, and we need to act like it. Make it seem unfair. That's how you get over the top.

[P Riv]

2 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

The Bills are at the stage where their focus needs to be on ruthless acquisition of talent. We're not just trying to be good. We're on the cusp of winning a Super Bowl, and we need to act like it. Make it seem unfair. That's how you get over the top.

 

Agreed, thats what Tampa and KC did last year.  

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, inaugural balls said:

 

I hear you, but this team can win NOW and LATER.

 

Win, win, win!!!

I agree.....I’m not saying we have to go in now.  I’m saying that we have to win at least one super bowl in the next 5 years or so.  If not, McB might be McGone

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

The long game/ sustained success is exactly what Beane is all about, he is pragmatic, but will do a DIggs type of deal as he see the correct opportunity presenting itself. Some folk here refuse to understand this it would appear. 

I agree that’s what he’s doing.  My point is:  there is no long game without a title.  If we win 5 straight AFCE titles with zero super bowl appearances, McB will be McGone.  

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

once again like who? - you complain you want a needle mover - who is that.

 

The Bills keep making moves and you do not give ideas or anything - just you want needle movers.

 

Who is the 1st round player you want to trade - then we can talk.

 

Who is this TE or DE needle mover and what are you willing to spend?

 

Lets cut Singletary, Our best ST LB, Butler (after his restructure or before?). 
 

Worst of all let’s tack a year on Hughes to save a few million - when we can get out of the contract next year.  This is what they did with Star and it backfired when he sat out.
 

Great now you freed up 7 million dollars, but you need another DT - where is that coming from and at what cost?

 

You do understand we also still need to sign nearly 20 guys prior to camp right?  We are at 65 and have 7 picks.

 

All I keep asking is who are the needle movers you want - this is your thread and your complaint- what would make you happy?  
 

Are you happy if they restructure Dawkins also and take 13 million for a DE like Clowney - does that move your needle.  Does he really make the Bills better because he sure did not make Seattle or Tennessee better.

 

Are you happy if they trade a 1st or 2nd to Philly for Ertz and his 8+ million contract?  Is that a needle mover?

 

Would it be better if they gave up their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and probably a high pick next year to get Pitts in the draft?

 

I just want to know WHO!!  You could be right on or you could be way off, but saying we need to go all in and not giving any (not even one miserable player) that fits your criteria - what are we supposed to do.

 

 

 

 

Any of the top 5-6 pass rushers in this free agent class may have been a needle mover.  
 

You ask who a needle mover is, and then when people give you an option, you’ll just say: no, he wouldn’t......when you have no idea what they would do, because we’ll never know unless the move is made

 

Dunlap moved the needle for Seattle this past season.  Their D was horrendous until they traded for him.  After the trade, Seattle had one of the better defenses in the league.  He’s still available.....and he’s not even one of the top 5 pass rushers I was talking about.  

 

One thing I know.  Mario Addison is NOT a needle mover and should’ve been cut.  That was a bone headed move by Beane.  That’s not talking smack on Beane and Addison.  That’s just a fact and we saw as much this season.  Dude is garbage. 

 

Beane could’ve cut ties with him and restructured Dawkins to make room for a top pass rusher.  Addison costs more that Reddick.  Who would you rather have?

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Any of the top 5-6 pass rushers in this free agent class may have been a needle mover.  
 

You ask who a needle mover is, and then when people give you an option, you’ll just say: no, he wouldn’t......when you have no idea what they would do, because we’ll never know unless the move is made

 

Dunlap moved the needle for Seattle this past season.  Their D was horrendous until they traded for him.  After the trade, Seattle had one of the better defenses in the league.  He’s still available.....and he’s not even one of the top 5 pass rushers I was talking about.  

 

One thing I know.  Mario Addison is NOT a needle mover and should’ve been cut.  That was a bone headed move by Beane.  That’s not talking smack on Beane and Addison.  That’s just a fact and we saw as much this season.  Dude is garbage. 

 

Beane could’ve cut ties with him and restructured Dawkins to make room for a top pass rusher.  Addison costs more that Reddick.  Who would you rather have?

 

 

 

That is exactly what I want to hear - at least you have options.  I honestly don’t know how I would react - I want discussion not just wah wah wah - we need to go all in.

 

 You are correct we would not know how those guys would doinbuffalo, but for example Dunlop - you say he is a needle mover, but he has done less in Cincinnati than Addison has done over the last 4 years.  In addition last year, Dunlop had 6 sacks to Addisons 5.  Dunlop is a nice player, but his re-signing with Seattle at over 8.5 per means the NFL thought he was on par with Addison.

 

The last thing about Addison is yes he is not an elite player, but he has been better than many of the guys we talked about during the initial FA period.  He has outplayed Clowney and Lawson over the last 3 years and has been on par with Dunlop.  So the dude maybe garbage to you, but with his pay rate and what we get - I will take that over what Cincinnati got from Lawson last year and Lawson was a pipe dream for many.

 

There were a few needle movers at DE, but then you had to be willing to give up something.  For example many people wanted Lawson - his 13.5 million price tag means you lose multiple of Milano, Williams, and Feliciano and maybe all 3.  Then the question is does he alone make you good enough to win without Milano and are you happy to sacrifice your Right side of the OLine for potential DE.

Thank you for at least having the courage to have a few options so we can discuss.  That is the point of the board.

 

I myself think with the way the staff works - Milano was significantly more important to the defense than any DE on the market.  The DE rotation and the way they want the non rush DE to hold up in the run game means you are going to have guys like Murphy and Addison that do their job - do not put up big numbers, but are crucial to the defense.  The issue becomes if you get the needle moving DE - does he have the freedom to just rush the passer and not worry about the run game or is he put into the same role as Murphy and Addison and everyone crushes him the next year.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Rochesterfan]

29 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

Beane could’ve cut ties with him and restructured Dawkins to make room for a top pass rusher.  Addison costs more that Reddick.  Who would you rather have?

 

 

He could of and yes Addison does potentially cost more than Reddick, but Reddick to me does not fit on this team - he is not an Addison replacement- he would be a Milano replacement.

 

I could of lived with that, but again we know what we have with Milano and Reddick did not emerge until his contract year (always a scary thing) He would of been a nice piece, but not a big time player.

 

If it is between Addison/Milano or Reddick/Milano- I am taking Addison only because the Bills typically employ a 4-2-5 and Milano and Edmunds are the 2 guys they trust.  If you want to argue Reddick and Dunlop over Addison and Milano - I would listen to that, but 4 years of Milano is better than the 1 year of Reddick.  If you rework Reddick and Dunlop’s contracts to mirror Addison and Milano - then you have potential.

 

Do you take Lawson at DE over both of them?  Cut Addison and do not sign Milano - that gets you enough to sign Lawson - does that make the Bills significantly better?  I don’t know - maybe.  It also leaves you a significant hole at LB that you need to fill.

 

 

[Locomark]

26 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That is exactly what I want to hear - at least you have options.  I honestly don’t know how I would react - I want discussion not just wah wah wah - we need to go all in.

 

 You are correct we would not know how those guys would doinbuffalo, but for example Dunlop - you say he is a needle mover, but he has done less in Cincinnati than Addison has done over the last 4 years.  In addition last year, Dunlop had 6 sacks to Addisons 5.  Dunlop is a nice player, but his re-signing with Seattle at over 8.5 per means the NFL thought he was on par with Addison.

 

The last thing about Addison is yes he is not an elite player, but he has been better than many of the guys we talked about during the initial FA period.  He has outplayed Clowney and Lawson over the last 3 years and has been on par with Dunlop.  So the dude maybe garbage to you, but with his pay rate and what we get - I will take that over what Cincinnati got from Lawson last year and Lawson was a pipe dream for many.

 

There were a few needle movers at DE, but then you had to be willing to give up something.  For example many people wanted Lawson - his 13.5 million price tag means you lose multiple of Milano, Williams, and Feliciano and maybe all 3.  Then the question is does he alone make you good enough to win without Milano and are you happy to sacrifice your Right side of the OLine for potential DE.

Thank you for at least having the courage to have a few options so we can discuss.  That is the point of the board.

 

I myself think with the way the staff works - Milano was significantly more important to the defense than any DE on the market.  The DE rotation and the way they want the non rush DE to hold up in the run game means you are going to have guys like Murphy and Addison that do their job - do not put up big numbers, but are crucial to the defense.  The issue becomes if you get the needle moving DE - does he have the freedom to just rush the passer and not worry about the run game or is he put into the same role as Murphy and Addison and everyone crushes him the next year.

 

💯 right on the need for a”needle moving” DE..   Let’s face it, even with a stronger CB2, what changes a game more? A group of good DBs who have to cover KCs WRs for 4.5 seconds or a group of average DBs who have to cover the same WRs for 2 seconds?   Forcing the quick pass is always better. Even great DBs can’t cover for too long. Time to get a great pass rush because AJ seems like a prayer at this point. 

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, Locomark said:

💯 right on the need for a”needle moving” DE..   Let’s face it, even with a stronger CB2, what changes a game more? A group of good DBs who have to cover KCs WRs for 4.5 seconds or a group of average DBs who have to cover the same WRs for 2 seconds?   Forcing the quick pass is always better. Even great DBs can’t cover for too long. Time to get a great pass rush because AJ seems like a prayer at this point. 

 

Totally agree on the need for a pass rush.  The issue is it was not a DE versus a CB2.  It was what group of players are you getting rid of for which DE.  
 

Are you not re-signing Milano, Williams, and Feliciano to create enough money to go after Lawson?  That is the equivalent contract.

 

The Bills recognized the need at DE and went after Watt - when he decided to go to Arizona that changed the cards you could play.  They had a chance to restructure and re-sign several players on very team friendly contract or let them go and try to sign FA DEs.  
 

The issue is exactly what KC is going through - what happens when you strike out on the guys you target.  They targeted Trent Williams to be their next tackle and even tried overpaying and he choose SF - now they are stuck with no Tackles and a weaker team.  If the Bills let Milano and Feliciano hit the market and cut Butler and Addison - they could of got to 13 - 14 million to sign a DE and restructure Dawkins to free up some extra money to sign another DT.

 

The problem becomes does Lawson sign with you?  You offer him the Jets contract at 13+ million and the Jets counter with 15 million does he still choose the Jets?  If you miss out then you have created gaping holes and missed your guy.  Beane took the sure thing over the maybe and that becomes especially true because after Watt you had a bunch of questionable guys at DE.  
 

Lawson was great as a rookie and then less productive than Addison since then.  He had 5.5 sacks in Cincinnati, but a ton of QB pressures finally in his contract year on a defense that was bad overall - so he did not really move that defense.  

 

Ngakoue did not improve Jacksonville, Minnesota, or Baltimore’s defense as a “needle moving” DE.  

 

Dunlop did improve Seattle’s defense, but he puts up numbers equivalent to Addison and is going to be 32 - not sure he is moving the needle greatly over what Addison brought.

 

Clowney, Ingram, and some others are still available and none are big improvements over the guys we brought back.

 

The best of the bunch might have been Hendrickson and he chose money going to a dumpster fire in Cincinnati- so again that would of been a hard sell to get in here without significant money.

 

I think everyone agrees (including the front office) that a pass rush animal at DE was a huge want - the balancing game makes it more difficult.  Watt choosing Arizona made a huge difference in how the Bills approached FA because you lost out on the guy you targeted.  That left Beane in the position that KC is in - do I sign my own or cut ties and go after the top guy.  Beane decided to re-sign his guys at significantly reduced prices to allow them to go after other FAs - KC went after multiple top flight FAs and hit 1 and missed a couple and now have no tackles on a team that was weak at tackle and it cost them a Super Bowl.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

I agree.....I’m not saying we have to go in now.  I’m saying that we have to win at least one super bowl in the next 5 years or so.  If not, McB might be McGone

I agree that’s what he’s doing.  My point is:  there is no long game without a title.  If we win 5 straight AFCE titles with zero super bowl appearances, McB will be McGone.  

Very likely true, I’m not worried about it though. 

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That is exactly what I want to hear - at least you have options.  I honestly don’t know how I would react - I want discussion not just wah wah wah - we need to go all in.

 

 You are correct we would not know how those guys would doinbuffalo, but for example Dunlop - you say he is a needle mover, but he has done less in Cincinnati than Addison has done over the last 4 years.  In addition last year, Dunlop had 6 sacks to Addisons 5.  Dunlop is a nice player, but his re-signing with Seattle at over 8.5 per means the NFL thought he was on par with Addison.

 

The last thing about Addison is yes he is not an elite player, but he has been better than many of the guys we talked about during the initial FA period.  He has outplayed Clowney and Lawson over the last 3 years and has been on par with Dunlop.  So the dude maybe garbage to you, but with his pay rate and what we get - I will take that over what Cincinnati got from Lawson last year and Lawson was a pipe dream for many.

 

There were a few needle movers at DE, but then you had to be willing to give up something.  For example many people wanted Lawson - his 13.5 million price tag means you lose multiple of Milano, Williams, and Feliciano and maybe all 3.  Then the question is does he alone make you good enough to win without Milano and are you happy to sacrifice your Right side of the OLine for potential DE.

Thank you for at least having the courage to have a few options so we can discuss.  That is the point of the board.

 

I myself think with the way the staff works - Milano was significantly more important to the defense than any DE on the market.  The DE rotation and the way they want the non rush DE to hold up in the run game means you are going to have guys like Murphy and Addison that do their job - do not put up big numbers, but are crucial to the defense.  The issue becomes if you get the needle moving DE - does he have the freedom to just rush the passer and not worry about the run game or is he put into the same role as Murphy and Addison and everyone crushes him the next year.

 

Thanks 👍🏻 
 

Dunlap literally moved the needle last year in Seattle.  There is much more to being an impact player pass rusher than accumulating sacks. Jerry had less sacks than Addison last season.....yet he was the much better player..... agree?  The Dunlap and Addison contracts being similar in $ means one thing:  Beane screwed up.  It has nothing to do with what the NFL to thinks about Addison.  Just Beane.  

 

regarding Addison out playing Lawson.....I don’t have time to look up stats right now, but look at their qb pressures and win rate and then talk about how Addison outplayed lawson.  When Addison beats his man, he usually gets the sack.  Lawson beats his man often and is harassing the QB all game.  He’s a much better player.  Please stop looking at sack totals to determine if a players success.

we could have signed every player we currently have AND signed one of the pass rushers.  We just would have had to restructure Dawkins, Diggs, poyer and create more room.  It wouldn’t be that hard.  We’d just have to have less wiggle room down the road.  Hence “going all in”.

 

Good conversation! 👍🏻

[QCity]

18 hours ago, Wizard said:

The Bills' roster is currently constructed to win the Super Bowl in the next two years.

 

Beane has re-signed last year's squad. A solid start for continuity as a playoff contender.

 

Now we must go over the top! This year may be the best shot to win the Lombardi. This team must go "All-In" during this brief window!This is the season where we are 1-2 pieces away.

 

If we need a Najee Harris/Etienne, a George Kittle, a Khalil Mack-type of player, go for it! Whatever player or two will fill those missing pieces, go and get it.

 

Kick the can down the road a year or two. I don't care. Trade our picks, cut a popular overpaid veteran, restructure another deal or two. Anything less than "all-in" this year takes away this window.

 

Yes, Allen and our younger core make it so a second window can come open in the next 10 years.

 

Barring significant injury, the Bills' are playoff caliber this decade.

 

But, this first window is wide open right now! A 2nd window is highly probable but no guarantee.

 

Allen will never be cheaper. The Patriots and Jets have not gained much ground. The Ravens do not have enough offense or the Titans. The Steelers are rarely this messed up. Miami is not a threat yet. Brees is done and Rodgers may have missed his 2nd window these past two years.

 

And, as talented as the Bills' young core is, future contracts will be massively more expensive. Depth will be harder to maintain and we may not have this many players in or around their prime for awhile.

 

Get that DE/RB/TE/LB/TE or whatever will fill our championship hole!

 

Ask Dan Marino and Elway about their first open window. Marino never got a 2nd one. Guys like Elway and Manning squeezed through their 2nd window and did so with significant support and a fair amount of lucky timing.

 

Now is not the time to settle for really good. Now is the right time to push the ante upward.

 

Throw the haymaker. Bring in the closer. Go for the jugular. Make the kill shot. 

 

This is the Window. This is the Way! (Fun Mandalorian reference). 🏈

 

 

 

 

 

Do you even understand what the term "all-in" means? You clearly don't. This team isn't going to sacrifice future seasons because a portion of the fan base is impatient. We don't have a HOF QB with 1 year left before he retires. There was nothing lucky about Manning or Elway winning Super Bowls. Our window to win is the next dozen years.

 

 

[Pete]

sustained success please.  Reload every year,don't rebuild

[P Riv]

5 minutes ago, QCity said:

Our window to win is the next dozen years.

 

Thats what Indy thought when they had Andrew Luck.  If our "window" is basically Josh's career, then KC has the same window more or less.  

At some point, the FO will have to figure out a way to go "all in" or stack the deck in our favor to get the edge on KC.

Right now they have to figure out how to win the division in dominant fashion and try to get home field in the playoffs.  We could easily go 8-0 at home, but 4-4 on the road, which means on the road at some point in the playoffs.  

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Very likely true, I’m not worried about it though. 

Same.  I’m excited for the ride.  Let’s just hope we aren’t having this conversation in 4 years! 😂