Bobby Hooks Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: Which makes our historic neglect of the position for decades all the more outrageous! To be fair, for like two decades there were only a handful of QBs that were worth a darn. We took our shots but they never really panned out. Many teams were having this issue, not just the Bills. Its not like it is now with all these new young guns coming in and playing really well. And it certainly want like it is now with the influx where every year it seems you can trade for or sign a pretty good one in free agency. Luckily, that seems to be behind us. Unfortunately, it seems many teams seem to have their guy. Would been nice to have a year or two as being one of only a handful of teams that had a good one.
AKC Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Big Turk said: Always used to hear about how nobody wanted to come here and play and how the Bills had to overpay for players to come here in FA. Now the tables have turned and they have turned quicker than I think anyone could have even dreamt of. I'd like to just add to your points that it was all made possible only by virtue of the Pegula's combined discipline. How many investors in a new field would overcome what it took for the Pegulas to allow the consolidation of power at their head coaching position after the disaster they had just experienced with Rex Ryan? Most people in their situation would have erred on the side of caution instead of allowing their new coaching hire to become an influencer at the GM position but it was their steady decision-making that made the Beane hire happen. It's now paying those big dividends as you have outlined. 1 1
filthymcnasty08 Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Even Buddy Nix knew the right answer.... take care of the quarterback position and everything else follows. Buddy Nix had Russell Wilson available in Rd. 3 2012 draft...and chose a bust WR. He instead went with Fitz and "Pigpen" 2
Doc Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: Yeah but they signed special teams guys which proves they are so dumb. I know, right? I mean, who needs a punter?
LABILLBACKER Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 I'm frankly very grateful for every word in this thread title. As Colin Cowherd just said a few minutes ago the Bills will be contending for a Super Bowl for the next 10 years. He thinks McD is the best young coach in the NFL today. Beane was never going to be able to sign everyone this pandemic cap year. Yet with what little money we had we resigned key olineman and found an amazing vet wr. Trubisky is a huge upgrade over Matt. It's officially time to stop complaining, stop trolling and enjoy the ride. 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 Beane got the QB right. He sacrificed an entire season to do it but who cares at this point. He has as many misses in free agency as he does successes. Still lots of question marks on his drafts. Half this board wants to replace, Knox, Singletary, Moss, and Ford which represents half the top 3 picks in the last two years. The guys that took less money did so because they were all candidates to be cut. They chose less money not to stay in Buffalo but to avoid hitting the open market in year with a significant drop in the cap. Beane used this to his advantage. Now if Allen signs for less money than Watson, Wilson or Rodgers then there may be something to the "hometown discount". 1
Albany,n.y. Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: Which makes our historic neglect of the position for decades all the more outrageous! They really didn't neglect the position, the old regimes just didn't do everything possible to get the right guy. Look at what was tried over the years using the 1st 3 rounds of the draft (I'm not going beyond the 3rd round since drafting a QB beyond that is not really trying, just hoping for a low percentage pick to exceed expectations): 1995-Used a 2nd rd pick to draft the QB they thought could be the QB of the future in Todd Collins 1997-Traded a 3rd round pick for Billy Joe Hobert 1998: Traded a 1st and a 4th for Rob Johnson, signed Doug Flutie 2002: Traded a 1st round pick in 2003 for Drew Bledsoe 2004: Traded a 2nd, 5th, & a 2005 1st for Dallas' 1st rd pick to draft J.P. Losman 2007: Used a 3rd rd pick (from McGahee trade) too draft Trent Edwards 2013: 1st round pick on EJ Manuel So between Jim Kelly & Josh Allen the Bills used 4 1st round picks to acquire QBs, two 2nd rd picks-one to draft & 1 as part of a move up trade for QBs, and two 3rds. That's 8 premium picks in attempts to get a QB. So it's not like the Bills old GMs didn't try, they just picked the wrong guys or didn't have the courage to package enough picks to get a guy they wanted like the 2004 draft when the Bills wanted to move up for Ben Roethlisberger but didn't make any team above them an offer that team couldn't refuse and then settled for a trade up later in the 1st for JP Losman. Now look at what the Bills did in 2018 under current management. After the 2017 season they were sitting with picks 21 & 22 where it would be impossible to get the QB they wanted. I believe that none of the prior GMs from the end of Kelly's career to Allen's drafts would have ever done enough to get the Bills to pick 7. Actually, the Bills were planning on moving up to 5 until Denver backed out when Chubb was still available. If Cleveland had drafted Chubb at 4, the Bills would have traded up to 5 with Denver to take Josh Allen. Beane planned to move heaven & earth to make sure he was in position to get his man. He traded for another 2nd before the 2017 season, traded Glenn & 21 to get to 12 & then pulled off the trade the prior GMs wouldn't dare to do. Then he drafted the QB that the organization believed in in spite of being laughed at by the analytics guys who used stats instead of tape & in person interviews. The Bills didn't neglect the QB position all those years. They tried, but made poor decisions & didn't have the courage to try to get into the top 10 by giving up what others would call too much. Maybe they relied too much on the points system most of the time. Beane didn't care about points. After the trade up to 12 with Cincinnati he was willing to trade the 1,910 draft points for 1,501 points to draft Allen. In the earlier proposed trade with Denver, he was going to trade picks 12, 22 & 53 for 5, a trade of 2,350 points for 1,700 points. Even with all that planning, it still could have gone wrong. If Cleveland had drafted Allen & the Jets Mayfield, the Bills would have ended up trading up to 7 for Sam Darnold. The planning worked but the Bills also got lucky the Browns and Jets didn't draft Josh. Edited March 22, 2021 by Albany,n.y. 2
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said: I'm frankly very grateful for every word in this thread title. As Colin Cowherd just said a few minutes ago the Bills will be contending for a Super Bowl for the next 10 years. He thinks McD is the best young coach in the NFL today. Beane was never going to be able to sign everyone this pandemic cap year. Yet with what little money we had we resigned key olineman and found an amazing vet wr. Trubisky is a huge upgrade over Matt. It's officially time to stop complaining, stop trolling and enjoy the ride. He said the same thing about Seattle and they haven't really been close since Russell threw the pick in the SB. It will be much harder to build a roster when Allen gets paid. That said though Beane has done a good to great job lining up the contracts. Hughes and Star will come off the books when Allen's extension starts to kick in. Morse can be let go. The secondary is locked up for the next several years with contracts that can be jettisoned if Hyde and Poyer's play diminishes. And that will leave only Diggs and Edmunds with upcoming big pay days a year or more from now.
Big Turk Posted March 22, 2021 Author Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Beane got the QB right. He sacrificed an entire season to do it but who cares at this point. He has as many misses in free agency as he does successes. Still lots of question marks on his drafts. Half this board wants to replace, Knox, Singletary, Moss, and Ford which represents half the top 3 picks in the last two years. The guys that took less money did so because they were all candidates to be cut. They chose less money not to stay in Buffalo but to avoid hitting the open market in year with a significant drop in the cap. Beane used this to his advantage. Now if Allen signs for less money than Watson, Wilson or Rodgers then there may be something to the "hometown discount". Simply not true in regards to them taking less money. Milano and Feliciano explicitly said they took less money to stay here. Beane said Trubisky had better offers from multiple teams but chose to come here based on many factors. Brissett got $5 million a year a few days after Trubisky signed for half of that... In terms of hits and misses in the draft and FA, all teams do. The fact the Bills are the only team in the top 5 in terms of FA Dollars spent in the past 4 years with a winning record speaks volumes as to what he has done in comparison to what most teams do. Since McDermott has been here, the Bills have the most value from their draft picks of any team in the NFL. Again....nice try. Let's not try and create a fictional narrative because it fits the story you are trying to tell. Unbelievable after building a 13-3 team reaching the AFC Championship Game within 4 years of a 17 year playoff drought and winning the AFC East for the first time in 25 years that we still have people who want to act like he has done a below average job. Mind boggling really. 45 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: He said the same thing about Seattle and they haven't really been close since Russell threw the pick in the SB. It will be much harder to build a roster when Allen gets paid. That said though Beane has done a good to great job lining up the contracts. Hughes and Star will come off the books when Allen's extension starts to kick in. Morse can be let go. The secondary is locked up for the next several years with contracts that can be jettisoned if Hyde and Poyer's play diminishes. And that will leave only Diggs and Edmunds with upcoming big pay days a year or more from now. Considering how much the cap will be going up on a yearly basis, it likely will be a lot easier than it has at any time since the salary cap era started. Edited March 22, 2021 by Big Turk 1 1 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: They really didn't neglect the position, the old regimes just didn't do everything possible to get the right guy. Look at what was tried over the years using the 1st 3 rounds of the draft (I'm not going beyond the 3rd round since drafting a QB beyond that is not really trying, just hoping for a low percentage pick to exceed expectations): 1995-Used a 2nd rd pick to draft the QB they thought could be the QB of the future in Todd Collins 1997-Traded a 3rd round pick for Billy Joe Hobert 1998: Traded a 1st and a 4th for Rob Johnson, signed Doug Flutie 2002: Traded a 1st round pick in 2003 for Drew Bledsoe 2004: Traded a 2nd, 5th, & a 2005 1st for Dallas' 1st rd pick to draft J.P. Losman 2007: Used a 3rd rd pick (from McGahee trade) too draft Trent Edwards 2013: 1st round pick on EJ Manuel So between Jim Kelly & Josh Allen the Bills used 4 1st round picks to acquire QBs, two 2nd rd picks-one to draft & 1 as part of a move up trade for QBs, and two 3rds. That's 8 premium picks in attempts to get a QB. So it's not like the Bills old GMs didn't try, they just picked the wrong guys or didn't have the courage to package enough picks to get a guy they wanted like the 2004 draft when the Bills wanted to move up for Ben Roethlisberger but didn't make any team above them an offer that team couldn't refuse and then settled for a trade up later in the 1st for JP Losman. Now look at what the Bills did in 2018 under current management. After the 2017 season they were sitting with picks 21 & 22 where it would be impossible to get the QB they wanted. I believe that none of the prior GMs from the end of Kelly's career to Allen's drafts would have ever done enough to get the Bills to pick 7. Actually, the Bills were planning on moving up to 5 until Denver backed out when Chubb was still available. If Cleveland had drafted Chubb at 4, the Bills would have traded up to 5 with Denver to take Josh Allen. Beane planned to move heaven & earth to make sure he was in position to get his man. He traded for another 2nd before the 2017 season, traded Glenn & 21 to get to 12 & then pulled off the trade the prior GMs wouldn't dare to do. Then he drafted the QB that the organization believed in in spite of being laughed at by the analytics guys who used stats instead of tape & in person interviews. The Bills didn't neglect the QB position all those years. They tried, but made poor decisions & didn't have the courage to try to get into the top 10 by giving up what others would call too much. Maybe they relied too much on the points system most of the time. Beane didn't care about points. After the trade up to 12 with Cincinnati he was willing to trade the 1,910 draft points for 1,501 points to draft Allen. In the earlier proposed trade with Denver, he was going to trade picks 12, 22 & 53 for 5, a trade of 2,350 points for 1,700 points. Great post. Throw in a little luck too. Cleveland or NYJ could have taken Allen and who knows how Beane would have responded. Don't forget TT and Shady had two top 5 offenses and Rex destroyed a top 3 defense.
Solomon Grundy Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 Let’s hope Atkins and Dunlap would consider a one year deal with a chance to win a SB
Big Turk Posted March 22, 2021 Author Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: They really didn't neglect the position, the old regimes just didn't do everything possible to get the right guy. Look at what was tried over the years using the 1st 3 rounds of the draft (I'm not going beyond the 3rd round since drafting a QB beyond that is not really trying, just hoping for a low percentage pick to exceed expectations): 1995-Used a 2nd rd pick to draft the QB they thought could be the QB of the future in Todd Collins 1997-Traded a 3rd round pick for Billy Joe Hobert 1998: Traded a 1st and a 4th for Rob Johnson, signed Doug Flutie 2002: Traded a 1st round pick in 2003 for Drew Bledsoe 2004: Traded a 2nd, 5th, & a 2005 1st for Dallas' 1st rd pick to draft J.P. Losman 2007: Used a 3rd rd pick (from McGahee trade) too draft Trent Edwards 2013: 1st round pick on EJ Manuel So between Jim Kelly & Josh Allen the Bills used 4 1st round picks to acquire QBs, two 2nd rd picks-one to draft & 1 as part of a move up trade for QBs, and two 3rds. That's 8 premium picks in attempts to get a QB. So it's not like the Bills old GMs didn't try, they just picked the wrong guys or didn't have the courage to package enough picks to get a guy they wanted like the 2004 draft when the Bills wanted to move up for Ben Roethlisberger but didn't make any team above them an offer that team couldn't refuse and then settled for a trade up later in the 1st for JP Losman. Now look at what the Bills did in 2018 under current management. After the 2017 season they were sitting with picks 21 & 22 where it would be impossible to get the QB they wanted. I believe that none of the prior GMs from the end of Kelly's career to Allen's drafts would have ever done enough to get the Bills to pick 7. Actually, the Bills were planning on moving up to 5 until Denver backed out when Chubb was still available. If Cleveland had drafted Chubb at 4, the Bills would have traded up to 5 with Denver to take Josh Allen. Beane planned to move heaven & earth to make sure he was in position to get his man. He traded for another 2nd before the 2017 season, traded Glenn & 21 to get to 12 & then pulled off the trade the prior GMs wouldn't dare to do. Then he drafted the QB that the organization believed in in spite of being laughed at by the analytics guys who used stats instead of tape & in person interviews. The Bills didn't neglect the QB position all those years. They tried, but made poor decisions & didn't have the courage to try to get into the top 10 by giving up what others would call too much. Maybe they relied too much on the points system most of the time. Beane didn't care about points. After the trade up to 12 with Cincinnati he was willing to trade the 1,910 draft points for 1,501 points to draft Allen. In the earlier proposed trade with Denver, he was going to trade picks 12, 22 & 53 for 5, a trade of 2,350 points for 1,700 points. Even with all that planning, it still could have gone wrong. If Cleveland had drafted Allen & the Jets Mayfield, the Bills would have ended up trading up to 7 for Sam Darnold. The planning worked but the Bills also got lucky the Browns and Jets didn't draft Josh. I think what it shows is Beane not only knew what he had to do but he also had a very comprehensive plan to ensure he would be in a position to do so AND not mortgage any future first round picks to do so. This wasn't just a shot in the dark...it was planned, it was very calculated and it relied on multiple moving parts to get o the point where this worked the way he wanted. Honestly it was GM genius. And on top of all of that, he executed his plan to perfection to get the guy he wanted. Very rare to have someone that can do all of this near flawlessly. Edited March 22, 2021 by Big Turk
Albany,n.y. Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said: Great post. Throw in a little luck too. Cleveland or NYJ could have taken Allen and who knows how Beane would have responded. Don't forget TT and Shady had two top 5 offenses and Rex destroyed a top 3 defense. I edited that before I saw your post. Based on the leaked Bills board prior to the draft, Beane was willing to make the proposed Denver trade to 5 for any of his top 3. In order they were Allen, Darnold & Mayfield. There was no plan to trade up beyond those 3 which means they would still be looking if Cleveland & the Jets took Allen & Mayfield.
Albany,n.y. Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Big Turk said: I think what it shows is Beane not only knew what he had to do but he also had a very comprehensive plan to ensure he would be in a position to do so AND not mortgage any future first round picks to do so. And on top of all of that, he executed his plan to perfection to get the guy he wanted. Very rare to have someone that can do all of this near flawlessly. I think that the Bills expected to take a few steps backwards with the QBs they had (McCarron, Peterman & a raw rookie in Allen) on the day of the draft and didn't want to include a high 2019 draft pick.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 42 minutes ago, filthymcnasty08 said: Buddy Nix had Russell Wilson available in Rd. 3 2012 draft...and chose a bust WR. He instead went with Fitz and "Pigpen" I didn’t say he was good at getting a QB, just said he had the right ‘idea’.
junior Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 20 minutes ago, Big Turk said: Simply not true in regards to them taking less money. Milano and Feliciano explicitly said they took less money to stay here. Beane said Trubisky had better offers from multiple teams but chose to come here based on many factors. Brissett got $5 million a year a few days after Trubisky signed for half of that... In terms of hits and misses in the draft and FA, all teams do. The fact the Bills are the only team in the top 5 in terms of FA Dollars spent in the past 4 years with a winning record speaks volumes as to what he has done in comparison to what most teams do. Since McDermott has been here, the Bills have the most value from their draft picks of any team in the NFL. Again....nice try. Let's not try and create a fictional narrative because it fits the story you are trying to tell. Unbelievable after building a 13-3 team reaching the AFC Championship Game within 4 years of a 17 year playoff drought and winning the AFC Championship for the first time in 25 years that we still have people who want to act like he has done a below average job. Mind boggling really. Considering how much the cap will be going up on a yearly basis, it likely will be a lot easier than it has at any time since the salary cap era started. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. I was going to before I saw you did 👍
Royale with Cheese Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Beane got the QB right. He sacrificed an entire season to do it but who cares at this point. He has as many misses in free agency as he does successes. Still lots of question marks on his drafts. Half this board wants to replace, Knox, Singletary, Moss, and Ford which represents half the top 3 picks in the last two years. The guys that took less money did so because they were all candidates to be cut. They chose less money not to stay in Buffalo but to avoid hitting the open market in year with a significant drop in the cap. Beane used this to his advantage. Now if Allen signs for less money than Watson, Wilson or Rodgers then there may be something to the "hometown discount". Milano and Williams were free agents and were not going to be cut. They had the open market, didn't even test it and stayed because they wanted to stay. Nelson Agohlor, on his 3rd team in 3 years got $13 million a year and his a borderline bust. He can get that contract but no one else really could? Teams like the Jets had like $70 million in cap space. They certainly could afford big contracts. If the bolded is the case, they would have just signed short term/1 year deals and then hit the market next year. But they both chose multi-year deals. 23 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Great post. Throw in a little luck too. Cleveland or NYJ could have taken Allen and who knows how Beane would have responded. Don't forget TT and Shady had two top 5 offenses and Rex destroyed a top 3 defense. No we did not.
NoSaint Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 I mean, they won. We have often said that winning will cure all ills and no one really hated the bills so much as we were a bad team for a really longtime. You’ll still get a few guys that want big cities and warm weather... but plenty will just want to win and have a good environment where they can shine and 5-8 late in the year isn’t conducive to that.
Mr. WEO Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Big Turk said: .Milano and Feliciano gave up some money to stay here. Morse, Butler and Addison gave up money to stay here ... Milano and Feliciano were free agents (Milano said he would be looking for top dollar, Felicano knew he was going to get a pay cut to stay). Neither got better offers, it seems. Morse had to have known they would be coming to him for a haircut. Same with Addison-who was a marginal Bill last season and would have been a big savings if they cut him (6 mil). Same for Butler, a 6.8 million savings. Easy to take a little pay cut than to get cut.
Big Turk Posted March 22, 2021 Author Posted March 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Milano and Feliciano were free agents (Milano said he would be looking for top dollar, Felicano knew he was going to get a pay cut to stay). Neither got better offers, it seems. Morse had to have known they would be coming to him for a haircut. Same with Addison-who was a marginal Bill last season and would have been a big savings if they cut him (6 mil). Same for Butler, a 6.8 million savings. Easy to take a little pay cut than to get cut. Milano and Feliciano never tested the market...both of them told their agents to get something done with the Bills and they wanted to stay. 1
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