Ro-ro for "Right Josh" Rosen

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

"Good Josh" was meant to distinguish between Allen and Rosen, playing-off of "Right Josh."  Not refer to "3rd year Josh."  Obviously no one could look into the future after their rookie years.

 

Again what I'm saying is that teams don't just give-up on 1st and 2nd round QBs after just 1 year if they think they have anything worth developing.  I mean, I can't recall the last QB drafted in the first 3 rounds who didn't get at least 2 seasons with his team.

Gotcha.  Good Josh is a term my friends and I used to throw around in 2019, when you never knew what you were gonna get on any given drive. 
 

I don’t think there have been too many instances in which an NFL team drafted a qb mid first round, ended up with worst record in the league,  fired their HC (Steve wilks......,yeah, Steve wilks was his HC), had the #1 pick and the #1 prospect was a super talented athlete qb that used to play for their new head coach.  The new Hc, like MOST HCs want their choice of QB and AZ was in position to give him that choice.   It was a perfect storm, no brainer decision.  The fact that Rosen had a terrible rookie year made it even easier.  
 

Back to my point.  Rosen wasn’t given much of a chance to succeed 

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Gotcha.  Good Josh is a term my friends and I used to throw around in 2019, when you never knew what you were gonna get on any given drive. 
 

I don’t think there have been too many instances in which an NFL team drafted a qb mid first round, ended up with worst record in the league,  fired their HC (Steve wilks......,yeah, Steve wilks was his HC), had the #1 pick and the #1 prospect was a super talented athlete qb that used to play for their new head coach.  The new Hc, like MOST HCs want their choice of QB and AZ was in position to give him that choice.   It was a perfect storm, no brainer decision.  The fact that Rosen had a terrible rookie year made it even easier.  
 

Back to my point.  Rosen wasn’t given much of a chance to succeed 

 

And my point is that that still doesn't prevent you from showing you're worth keeping around and developing.

[NewEra]

Just now, Doc said:

 

And my point is that that still doesn't prevent you from showing you're worth keeping around and developing.

They were offered a 2nd rd pick for him. Why would they keep him after drafting a QB #1 overall.  The same heisman QB that has moves like a running back that the new HC used to coach and fits his ideal QB to a T.  
 

Why would they keep him when they were offered a #2 pick?  

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

They were offered a 2nd rd pick for him. Why would they keep him after drafting a QB #1 overall.  The same heisman QB that has moves like a running back that the new HC used to coach and fits his ideal QB to a T.  
 

Why would they keep him when they were offered a #2 pick?  

 

One followed the other.  After proving not to be worth keeping, they draft Murray first overall and looked to trade Rosen.  They found someone dumb enough to do it.  Then the Dols see he doesn't have it either and let him go. 

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

One followed the other.  After proving not to be worth keeping, they draft Murray first overall and looked to trade Rosen.  They found someone dumb enough to do it.  Then the Dols see he doesn't have it either and let him go. 

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

 

Either way - Josh Allen would have been a star on the 2020 Jets throwing to Robby Anderson, Jamison Crowder, and Denzel Mims. He would make TE Herndon better.

 

U offered a hypothetical and I offered a hypothetical on top of your hypothetical. You can't prove me wrong. Josh Allen would still be a star on the Jets. 

This is too funny.  Stop acting 5.  I don’t have to prove you wrong.  You haven’t proved yourself right.  Not to mention that you’re talking about make believe. Of course I can’t prove you wrong.  Way to call me out on that.  

It’s my belief that Josh Allen wouldn’t be regarded as an “elite QB” after year 3 if he were drafted by the Jets and played with the same players while having the same coaches that Darnold played.  I’m not saying he wouldn’t eventually become elite.  Just that he wouldn’t be as far along as he currently is.  
 

You disagree.  cool.  

[billsfan89]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yeah....and allen wasn’t very good in year one.  Not sure what Josh Allen has to do with what I said.  The Bills didn’t have the #1 pick in the draft with Kyler Murray and Kingsbury as NEW head coach.  They are completely different situations.

 

My comment only had to do with rosen.  He was put in 2 terrible positions. Positions where most QBs would fail.  Do you disagree?

 

you’re disagreeing with me and you don’t even understand what I’m saying.  

If in 2019 Josh had to play behind the same caliber of talent he had in 2018 and on a new team with a new coach I think Josh would have had similar results to his 2018 season. Luckily Josh had a rebuilt Oline and better skill position players to work with in 2019 and he saw progress.
 

I think Rosen was going to be a bust either way due to various factors but he certainly was not put in a positive position to have success his first two years in the league. I am just really surprised he hasn’t been able to hang onto a backup job.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Doc.  You’re a smart guy right?  I believe you to be a smart guy.  Look at your question.  
 

“do you think the cardinals would have drafted Murray if they had “good Josh”......at that point in time, there was no good Josh.  You can’t just fast forward time and know that “good Josh” even existed at the time where they drafted Kyler.  If we’re going to talk about complete nonsense, than, no.  There is no chance that the cardinals would’ve drafted Kyler #1 overall if they had “good Josh”....you know, the QB that didn’t even exist at the time of their decision. 
 

cmon man.  The consensus around the league after 17s first year was the same as when he came out.  All the talent in the world to be the best QBs ever.....but he needed to improve a lot to get there.  What was the consensus during the 2021 season:  “there has never been a QB to make the jump in play that Josh allen made from last year to this”.  Everyone said it.  No one knew what we had until this year.  Everyone can pretend all they want.  JOSH WASN’T “GOOD JOSH” until 2021. His transformation as a QB is legendary according to the professionals.  Everyone knew he had the talent....everyone.  It was obvious.  Nobody KNEW for sure that he would be an elite QB until we saw him do it this year.  People can pretend all they want.  Sorry, not sorry

 

 

Assuming Arizona would have fired their coach and hired Kingsbury (KB) no matter who was their QB in 2018 I believe KB would have seen Allen's mobility as a huge plus in his offense.  He also would have loved Allen's arm talent and size. And I suspect he would have felt he could correct any accuracy issues.

 

Murray running the ball is a big part of the KB offense.  Allen demonstrated beyond a doubt in 2018 that he was an elite running QB.  KB would have been thrilled to have Allen behind center.

 

So if Arizona had Allen, KB would have stuck with him and traded out of the first pick gaining a whole lot of draft capital to upgrade the offensive talent.

 

 

[Doc]

47 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

If in 2019 Josh had to play behind the same caliber of talent he had in 2018 and on a new team with a new coach I think Josh would have had similar results to his 2018 season. Luckily Josh had a rebuilt Oline and better skill position players to work with in 2019 and he saw progress.
 

I think Rosen was going to be a bust either way due to various factors but he certainly was not put in a positive position to have success his first two years in the league. I am just really surprised he hasn’t been able to hang onto a backup job.

 

I wanted Rosen in the draft and absolutely did not want Josh (or Jackson or Darnold).  After seeing Rosen play as a rookie, I realized he was going to be a bust.

[NewEra]

26 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Assuming Arizona would have fired their coach and hired Kingsbury (KB) no matter who was their QB in 2018 I believe KB would have seen Allen's mobility as a huge plus in his offense.  He also would have loved Allen's arm talent and size. And I suspect he would have felt he could correct any accuracy issues.

 

Murray running the ball is a big part of the KB offense.  Allen demonstrated beyond a doubt in 2018 that he was an elite running QB.  KB would have been thrilled to have Allen behind center.

 

So if Arizona had Allen, KB would have stuck with him and traded out of the first pick gaining a whole lot of draft capital to upgrade the offensive talent.

 

 

Dude......I could care less about any make believe situation involving Josh Allen playing in Arizona with Klimt Kingsbury.  

 

my only point here is:  rosens 2 opportunities were crappy opportunities.  That’s all. 

[Behindenemylines]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Dude......I could care less about any make believe situation involving Josh Allen playing in Arizona with Klimt Kingsbury.  

 

my only point here is:  rosens 2 opportunities were crappy opportunities.  That’s all. 

They may have been crappy opportunities but he did little to nothing to take advantage of what was given to him.  If Allen, Mahomes, etc were in the exact same position the conversation would be much different ala geat effort by the QB but just no surrounding talent.  Rosen just had no talent at this level and no desire to work for it. 

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

They may have been crappy opportunities but he did little to nothing to take advantage of what was given to him.  If Allen, Mahomes, etc were in the exact same position the conversation would be much different ala geat effort by the QB but just no surrounding talent.  Rosen just had no talent at this level and no desire to work for it. 

I’ve said this.  
 

Are you telling me that the talent and coaching surrounding a QB has very little to do with a QBs growth? 
 

if you aren’t telling me that, than we agree.  

[Orlando Buffalo]

I will point this out in all these threads- I knew with 100% certainty he was gonna bust, too fragile and too much " I can change the world while winning 7 super bowl" crap. You win super bowls them change world. 

 

[BornAgainBillsFan]

 

Anyway, Rosen doesn't get a pass, just because he was drafted and/or traded into a bad situation. Almost all highly touted QBs have to deal with it, because the teams that suck the most get to pick first. That's the nature of the draft.

 

Those who have the intangibles (patience, leadership, belief in team building, etc.) persevere. Those who don't fall by the wayside.

 

[colin]

this argument that every single nfl position can be at least reasonably evaluated, even if the team around them is cheeks, except qb is garbage.

 

sure, a solid qb on a terrible roster will produce poor stat sheet numbers (year 1 allen), but you can watch the guy play and see what he has.

 

rosen wasn't ruined by bad situations, he just sucks as an nfl qb.  seems like a jerk, bad attitude, and most of all he's physically weak.

 

as i've said since allen came into the nfl, he's FavrElway, is an absolute dog, and his sort of greatest general flaw of being sugar high josh is a symptom of his extreme energy and passion (just like Favre).  as it has gotten under control he more and more has just taken games by the throat and went murder mode and won them.

 

dilfer and the other QB types/coaches who worked with him coming out of the draft were pretty clear that in all the accuracy drills they ran the qbs through, allen was the best and in many cases was the only one to achieve the desired result of the test (talk of him hitting the crossbar/post on the uprights on one throw).  he isn't and never was inaccurate, he just got sloppy and threw bad balls.  when his head feet and hips are working correctly, he puts darts on targets (this is the Elway portion of his makeup, his straight up god given talent is off the charts).

 

Allen is a stud and would be a stud on any nfl team, rosen is a bum and would be a bum on any NFL team.  them's just the breaks.

[Captain Hindsight]

13 hours ago, Doc said:

 

One followed the other.  After proving not to be worth keeping, they draft Murray first overall and looked to trade Rosen.  They found someone dumb enough to do it.  Then the Dols see he doesn't have it either and let him go. 

And that second was basically the same pick we got for Tyrod. The dolphins actually agreed to trader an earlier pick, then were offered a deal to move back and trade the later 2nd round pick for Rosen. Obviously not at all concerned someone would offer a better deal

[T master]

21 hours ago, Doc said:

 

 

As CBF said, Josh was put in a worse situation than Rosen.  The Bills' OL had just lost their 2 best players in Wood and Incognito (and couldn't do much to remedy it given the cap situation) and he had crap at receiver and TE.  Yet the Bills decided to build around him whereas the Cardinals were likely talked-out of sticking with Rosen by Kingsbury after watching film, despite spending a 1st rounder on him.  Likewise, the Dols had nothing else at QB and traded a 2nd rounder for him, and still moved on.  I'm not sure how many more chances you give a guy before you declare him a bust.

 

To that i reference Jim Plunkett considered a major bust and a high draft pick that in time given the right team, coach, scheme, and more than enough experience by watching & learning from a back up position when given the chance made it work .

 

I know this analogy is a once in a lifetime thing but it has & can happen we never know what lies ahead it just may not be his time and all the stars are not aligned just yet . 

[Steve O]

2 hours ago, T master said:

 

To that i reference Jim Plunkett considered a major bust and a high draft pick that in time given the right team, coach, scheme, and more than enough experience by watching & learning from a back up position when given the chance made it work .

 

I know this analogy is a once in a lifetime thing but it has & can happen we never know what lies ahead it just may not be his time and all the stars are not aligned just yet . 

Not really once in a lifetime...Rich Gannon never excelled until his mid 30's, Patriots wanted to convert him to running back when drafting him. Not the high pick that Plunkett and Rosen were though but to your point, just takes some people longer for their stars to align. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

[Doc]

Sure it can happen. But the odds are not in his favor.