Ro-ro for "Right Josh" Rosen

[NewEra]

29 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 

As CBF said, Josh was put in a worse situation than Rosen.  The Bills' OL had just lost their 2 best players in Wood and Incognito (and couldn't do much to remedy it given the cap situation) and he had crap at receiver and TE.  Yet the Bills decided to build around him whereas the Cardinals were likely talked-out of sticking with Rosen by Kingsbury after watching film, despite spending a 1st rounder on him.  Likewise, the Dols had nothing else at QB and traded a 2nd rounder for him, and still moved on.  I'm not sure how many more chances you give a guy before you declare him a bust.

Yeah....and allen wasn’t very good in year one.  Not sure what Josh Allen has to do with what I said.  The Bills didn’t have the #1 pick in the draft with Kyler Murray and Kingsbury as NEW head coach.  They are completely different situations.

 

My comment only had to do with rosen.  He was put in 2 terrible positions. Positions where most QBs would fail.  Do you disagree?

 

you’re disagreeing with me and you don’t even understand what I’m saying.  

[Albany,n.y.]

2 hours ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

This is such a great post. One think about Allen is he has never whined about his situation and has always been the first to take the blame. He has been pretty much been doubted his whole career even so much into two seasons of the Nfl. Those of us who actually watched the games instead of stat line or highlights could see  something special. 
 

You can go to a Miami message board today and still find the posters who believe he will fall from grace this season. That last season was an outlier. I don’t buy the comparisons to situation like a Wentz because he has gradually been accsending each season.
 

At some point that will hit a flatline and maybe we have seen his best or maybe we will see even more . No doubt where he is now is more than enough to be our franchise. 

It drives me crazy when I see someone on TV or on the radio say that after his 1st 2 seasons Josh was headed towards the bust column (Cowherd is among the worst of them) because they looked at stats totally out of context.  Those of us who rely on watching games without a stat sheet could see the special things he is capable of doing.  Now in all fairness to those skeptics, he did have a rough 2nd season throwing the (low % for just about every NFL QB) deep passes but that was in part due to the fact he kept throwing the low % throws.  I remember before Diggs arrived I'd be watching some of the top QBs be bailed out because they had a true #1 WR to throw to & I'd be thinking if Josh had a guy like that to throw to everyone would get off his case.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

I'm not sure how many more chances you give a guy before you declare him a bust.

Nine? 🤔

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Come on. Half y'all wanted Rosen. Fess up!

1 hour ago, Albany,n.y. said:

It drives me crazy when I see someone on TV or on the radio say that after his 1st 2 seasons Josh was headed towards the bust column (Cowherd is among the worst of them) because they looked at stats totally out of context.  Those of us who rely on watching games without a stat sheet could see the special things he is capable of doing.  Now in all fairness to those skeptics, he did have a rough 2nd season throwing the (low % for just about every NFL QB) deep passes but that was in part due to the fact he kept throwing the low % throws.  I remember before Diggs arrived I'd be watching some of the top QBs be bailed out because they had a true #1 WR to throw to & I'd be thinking if Josh had a guy like that to throw to everyone would get off his case.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cowherd is the worst. I wish some one would put up a compilation clip of all the times he's been wrong. I remember all last season that guy was saying the Bills were over-hyped and Josh wasn't even the best QB in the divison. That dude is corny af

[BornAgainBillsFan]

1 minute ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Come on. Half y'all wanted Rosen. Fess up!

 

Nope. As soon as I saw that Tower of Power standing tall and fearless in the pocket in Wyoming, Allen became my man crush.

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

8 minutes ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

 

Nope. As soon as I saw that Tower of Power standing tall and fearless in the pocket in Wyoming, Allen became my man crush.

 

 

That's how I felt initially when I first saw the Allen highlights, but then I kept feeding into all the expert crap on him being too inaccurate + this and that. 

[maddenboy]

6 hours ago, T master said:

 

Just wondering though do you think it could be because of the way he was handled ?

 

I think the guy has what it takes but he just needs to settle down under a stable coaching staff and give him a O line that can protect him & a scheme with the time to learn it and he might be a good NFL QB but we may never know .

I think Rosen flamed out because he never NEEDED to be a great NFL QB.

 

Pre-draft, I wanted him bad.  He was the correct Josh to me.  Up until an article i read during draft week. 

 

Apparently, Rosen's family has gobs of $$$$.   His father is a world-renouned Heart Surgeon.  And his mother is a Wharton.  As in east-cost old old money.  As in Wharton school of business at Penn.

 

Kinda like Johnny Manziel, whose family has plenty of oil money.  Same take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward being a great NFL QB.

[TheFunPolice]

I just remember him sitting with Aaron Rogers, talking about how he was going to win more Super Bowls than Brady. 

 

Now, he's still young, and Brady won the majority of his Super Bowls after age 37, but still. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yeah....and allen wasn’t very good in year one.  Not sure what Josh Allen has to do with what I said.  The Bills didn’t have the #1 pick in the draft with Kyler Murray and Kingsbury as NEW head coach.  They are completely different situations.

 

My comment only had to do with rosen.  He was put in 2 terrible positions. Positions where most QBs would fail.  Do you disagree?

 

you’re disagreeing with me and you don’t even understand what I’m saying.  

 

Pick a side.  Either I can mention Good Josh or neither of us can talk about any other QB.

 

But let me ask you: everything else being equal, do you think the Cardinals still would have drafted Murray 1st overall if they had Good Josh?  I don't, therefore I don't agree with your question to me.

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

This!

 

 

The Franchise QB makes the franchise. (Josh Allen makes the Bills)

 

The franchise doesn't make the Franchise QB.

 

If a franchise gives up on a QB, it's because that QB isn't a franchise QB. Simple.

Yeah, Josh allen was awesome with a terrible OL and an even worse WR unit.  Our offense was just lighting the opposition up with Cody Ford at RT and John Brown as our #1 WR. 
 

think what you like.  A QBs coaching staff, teammates and support system is extremely important in their development.  Sure, elite superstar QBs may find a way to succeed without a good cast but many cannot.  Put JA on the Jets and we wouldn’t be talking about him in the same light we are today.  I promise.  He may have turned out better than Darnold is currently, but he wouldn’t be in the “elite” class right now if Jameson Crowder was his #1, Adam gase calling the plays, woody johnson owning the team and playing behind a ridiculously bad OL.  

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Pick a side.  Either I can mention Good Josh or neither of us can talk about any other QB.

 

But let me ask you: everything else being equal, do you think the Cardinals still would have drafted Murray 1st overall if they had Good Josh?  I don't, therefore I don't agree with your question to me.

I was talking about rosen.  What I said had nothing to do with allen.  You brought him up.  Not sure your point.  

Do I think the Cardinals still would have drafted Murray 1st overall if they had Good Josh?  So, do I think the cardinals would have taken Kyler Murray if they had 3rd year Josh Allen surrounded by a much different team than he had his rookie year.  No, I don’t think they would take Murray if they had a Josh Allen that literally didn’t exist.  How are you even trying to make this part of the conversation?  Why?  Mind blowing. 

 

Again, my point has absolutely nothing to do with Josh Allen. My point:  Rosen didn’t have a “real chance” to succeed in his first 2 seasons based on the coaching and talent surrounding him.  That’s all.  Do you agree?  

 

7 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

False. Josh Allen would have inspired the Jets to build around him. Any team with Josh Allen would be incredibly inspired to build around him. Your QB has to show the team that he is worth building around, first. This is where Rosen/Darnold failed. They showed their respective teams early that "I am not worth building around". And so, the Cardinals/Jets both said: "You can't play, you inspire nobody, therefore we are not going to waste any more time and money building around you"

 

If the Jets drafted Josh Allen, Robby Anderson would have had a big-time 2019 season with Josh (similar to John Brown's 2019 season), and the Jets would have re-signed Robby Anderson following his big-time 2019 season. Guess who would have been the Jets #1 WR in 2020 if they drafted Josh Allen in 2018? Robby Anderson. The chain of events would be completely different with Josh Allen instead of Darnold; this is something you are not factoring in. You can't assume that the Jets would have hired the same coaches, signed the same players, drafted the same players, etc....if they had Josh Allen instead.

 

 

I thought you were banned?  
 

I’m glad you have a land of make believe reverse crystal ball.  Where can I find one of those.  

[eball]

32 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Yeah, Josh allen was awesome with a terrible OL and an even worse WR unit.  Our offense was just lighting the opposition up with Cody Ford at RT and John Brown as our #1 WR. 
 

think what you like.  A QBs coaching staff, teammates and support system is extremely important in their development.  Sure, elite superstar QBs may find a way to succeed without a good cast but many cannot.  Put JA on the Jets and we wouldn’t be talking about him in the same light we are today.  I promise.  He may have turned out better than Darnold is currently, but he wouldn’t be in the “elite” class right now if Jameson Crowder was his #1, Adam gase calling the plays, woody johnson owning the team and playing behind a ridiculously bad OL.  

 

I don’t agree with you.  We’ll never know.  Josh Allen is generational.  He’s not just about his surrounding cast.  Any of us who wanted to see it saw the superstar potential even in that “not very good” rookie season.  After all I’ve seen, I believe Allen would have succeeded no matter where he ended up, and I’m thrilled it was in Buffalo.

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I don’t agree with you.  We’ll never know.  Josh Allen is generational.  He’s not just about his surrounding cast.  Any of us who wanted to see it saw the superstar potential even in that “not very good” rookie season.  After all I’ve seen, I believe Allen would have succeeded no matter where he ended up, and I’m thrilled it was in Buffalo.

You think Josh allen would be viewed as an “elite QB” right now if he were playing on the Jets the last 3 years?  Cool, agree to disagree.  Not much else to say.  
 

I said allen would probably be better than Darnold turned out (probably, because we’re talking about make believe.  We don’t know for sure).  He wasn’t even a top 10 qb prior to this season.  I don’t think he would’ve been able to make the jump to elite with the OL and WRs the Jets had.  Very good and a franchise QB, definitely a possibility. Elite? Not in my opinion.  
 

Regarding the bolded:  You’re speaking as if I said he would have failed.  I said I don’t think he would be elite right now. When I saw him in college, I thought he was the most talented thrower I’ve ever seen.  The Bills have done a great job of bringing him along.  And he’s out in a lot of work.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by NewEra

[Captain Hindsight]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

A “real chance” isn’t playing for the cardinals (and their OL) and the Dolphins (with their OL).  He had no chance in either spot.  
 

I’m not saying he’s going to be good, it’s looking like his career is over, but his “2 real chances”, were really only chances to fail. 

I'd encourage you to go watch a few of his games with the Cardinals and the Dolphins. Even when he had time, a perfect pocket and guys open, he was late on throws, no anticipation. He had like maybe two good throws a game. He honestly reminded me of Peterman with a better arm. Skittish, no pocket awareness and uncomfortable. 

 

The fact they "debated" whether or not to draft Murray is laughable. Kingsbury was hired to coach Murray

[NewEra]

Just now, Captain Hindsight said:

I'd encourage you to go watch a few of his games with the Cardinals and the Dolphins. Even when he had time, a perfect pocket and guys open, he was late on throws, no anticipation. He had like maybe two good throws a game. He honestly reminded me of Peterman with a better arm. Skittish, no pocket awareness and uncomfortable. 

 

The fact they "debated" whether or not to draft Murray is laughable. Kingsbury was hired to coach Murray

Note to self: don’t say anything nice about opposing players.
 

what did I say?  Did I say he was going to be good?  Did I say that he’s a great QB?  
 

no.  I said that he didn’t have a “real chance” playing with the cardinals and Miami.......why are you acting as if I said something different. I didn’t say anything about his play.  Literally, not one thing.  I watched him.  He stunk. His team stunk too.  His team in Miami stunk too.  

[Doc]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I was talking about rosen.  What I said had nothing to do with allen.  You brought him up.  Not sure your point.  

Do I think the Cardinals still would have drafted Murray 1st overall if they had Good Josh?  So, do I think the cardinals would have taken Kyler Murray if they had 3rd year Josh Allen surrounded by a much different team than he had his rookie year.  No, I don’t think they would take Murray if they had a Josh Allen that literally didn’t exist.  How are you even trying to make this part of the conversation?  Why?  Mind blowing. 

 

Again, my point has absolutely nothing to do with Josh Allen. My point:  Rosen didn’t have a “real chance” to succeed in his first 2 seasons based on the coaching and talent surrounding him.  That’s all.  Do you agree? 

 

LOL!  Nice try with the "3rd year Josh Allen" feint.  I'll take that to mean you can't bring yourself to admit that the Cardinals would not have dumped Josh after just 1 season like they did Rosen.  Just because they hired Kingsbury and had the 1st overall doesn't mean that Kyler Murray was a fait accompli.

 

And yes, Rosen could have "succeeded" by showing enough to not be dumped after 1 season, twice, by a team who invested a high draft pick on him.  Not sure why you're defending him so vigorously?

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

LOL!  Nice try with the "3rd year Josh Allen" feint.  I'll take that to mean you can't bring yourself to admit that the Cardinals would not have dumped Josh after just 1 season like they did Rosen.  Just because they hired Kingsbury and had the 1st overall doesn't mean that Kyler Murray was a fait accompli.

 

And yes, Rosen could have "succeeded" by showing enough to not be dumped after 1 season, twice, by a team who invested a high draft pick on him.  Not sure why you're defending him so vigorously?

Doc.  You’re a smart guy right?  I believe you to be a smart guy.  Look at your question.  
 

“do you think the cardinals would have drafted Murray if they had “good Josh”......at that point in time, there was no good Josh.  You can’t just fast forward time and know that “good Josh” even existed at the time where they drafted Kyler.  If we’re going to talk about complete nonsense, than, no.  There is no chance that the cardinals would’ve drafted Kyler #1 overall if they had “good Josh”....you know, the QB that didn’t even exist at the time of their decision. 
 

cmon man.  The consensus around the league after 17s first year was the same as when he came out.  All the talent in the world to be the best QBs ever.....but he needed to improve a lot to get there.  What was the consensus during the 2021 season:  “there has never been a QB to make the jump in play that Josh allen made from last year to this”.  Everyone said it.  No one knew what we had until this year.  Everyone can pretend all they want.  JOSH WASN’T “GOOD JOSH” until 2021. His transformation as a QB is legendary according to the professionals.  Everyone knew he had the talent....everyone.  It was obvious.  Nobody KNEW for sure that he would be an elite QB until we saw him do it this year.  People can pretend all they want.  Sorry, not sorry

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

8 hours ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

This is such a great post.

And one that is typical of @Albany,n.y. 👍

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

How ironic - the one with the reverse crystal ball is yourself.

 

"If the Jets drafted Josh Allen, Josh would have failed" 

 

This was your original premise.

 

You have no way of proving that.

 

You took pure speculation and treated it as fact.

 

What I did was, I gave you a totally plausible scenario that might have played out, and would have led to Josh Allen succeeding as a Jet.

 

Where can I find one of those reverse crystal balls?

Wow.  I stopped at the bolded. Please show me where I said that.  

[Doc]

40 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Doc.  You’re a smart guy right?  I believe you to be a smart guy.  Look at your question.  
 

“do you think the cardinals would have drafted Murray if they had “good Josh”......at that point in time, there was no good Josh.  You can’t just fast forward time and know that “good Josh” even existed at the time where they drafted Kyler.  If we’re going to talk about complete nonsense, than, no.  There is no chance that the cardinals would’ve drafted Kyler #1 overall if they had “good Josh”....you know, the QB that didn’t even exist at the time of their decision. 
 

cmon man.  The consensus around the league after 17s first year was the same as when he came out.  All the talent in the world to be the best QBs ever.....but he needed to improve a lot to get there.  What was the consensus during the 2021 season:  “there has never been a QB to make the jump in play that Josh allen made from last year to this”.  Everyone said it.  No one knew what we had until this year.  Everyone can pretend all they want.  JOSH WASN’T “GOOD JOSH” until 2021. His transformation as a QB is legendary according to the professionals.  Everyone knew he had the talent....everyone.  It was obvious.  Nobody KNEW for sure that he would be an elite QB until we saw him do it this year.  People can pretend all they want.  Sorry, not sorry

 

"Good Josh" was meant to distinguish between Allen and Rosen, playing-off of "Right Josh."  Not refer to "3rd year Josh."  Obviously no one could look into the future after their rookie years.

 

Again what I'm saying is that teams don't just give-up on 1st and 2nd round QBs after just 1 year if they think they have anything worth developing.  I mean, I can't recall the last QB drafted in the first 3 rounds who didn't get at least 2 seasons with his team.