I absolutely HATE our team’s focus on Special Teams

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

ST spending isn't the main driver of their cap issues, but it's a contributing cause to why they're up against it without paying the QB or his top receiving target. 

 

Can you explain this a little more? 

 

Upthread, @JGMcD2 did some careful work and came up with the Bills spending $5M on ST-specific players.

 

Without doing the same careful work he did, I woulda said ST-specific players last season included (2020 salaries) Roberts ($2.3M), Taiwan Jones ($1.75M), and Matakevich ($3.4M) so $7.45M - I may be considering incentives that weren't reached etc and overestimating. 

 

I'm not considering punter, kicker, and long snapper as every team carries one, and the Bills clearly made the decision to bail and move on when confronted with a punter who wanted top-dawg-dollars.

 

That's 3.8% of the 2020 cap.  Care to explain how 3.8% is a significant "contributing cause" to being up against the cap without paying the QB/top receiver?  I mean, that's basically like "cut Trent Murphy last year instead of paying him to sit, Covered It" level.

 

If we're looking for significant cap management issues that interfere with paying the QB and his top receiving target, paying high dollar to an 11 man rotation of primarily free agent defensive linemen ($52M in 2020 per Spotrac, #1 in the league) is a far more significant issue.  That's 24% of the cap right there on 11 guys, and only 3 home-grown talents among the top 8 man rotation.  And none of them appear able to consistently "affect the QB" against the top OLs in the league.

 

ST looks like "chump change" to me by NFL standards, but also an area where the Bills may be pulling their belt in a bit this year - we'll see.

 

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Eventually the strategy needs to come in-line with reality.  They'll need to find rookies and vet minimum guys who aren't making 2-3M to play on the kickoff/punt units.  Or, replace players looking to cash in with rookies. 

 

The ST unit is already primarily rookies and vet minimum guys, but the good teams all seem to have a handful of core "specialists" whose job it is to educate the rest on the details of their roles and herd the the cats into line.

[34-78-83]

20 hours ago, Logic said:

Here are Rick Gosselin’s special teams rankings for 2020. He’s been doing this a long time and is the best in the biz.
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/.amp/nfl/rick-gosselins-2020-nfl-special-teams-rankings

 

 

Six of the top nine were playoff teams, and the number one team was the Patriots. It seems like Bill Belichick knows a thing or two about what’s important to winning in the NFL, and it seems like special teams success correlates directly to one’s likelihood of winning enough football games to qualify for the postseason.

 

Weep. Tell me how a WR6 and RB4 should be kept more for their ability to play 4 snaps a game on offense than for their ability to play on punt coverage, kick coverage, punt return, and kick return teams.

 

You can’t, because it’s a ridiculous opinion.

 

 

This should be the post to end the thread...

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

20 hours ago, FireChans said:

Please count how many snaps per game are played on special teams vs offense and defense.

 

Thanks for playing. “Third of the game” is another tired dead cliche repeated by meat head boomer head coaches. 

I guess you are not a McDermott fan because he uses that term all the time. It doesn't mean they have equal snap counts but that there are 3 separate units to your football team. Our special teams salaries don't even come close to our offense and defensive units salaries; so that tells you where our main importance lies.  

[KingBoots8]

You say this until a music city miracle happens to you.

[Max Fischer]

I think special teams might be the most nerve wracking part of the game. Especially punts - kicking and receiving. So many things can go wrong.

 

Shanks, missed blocks, penalties (holding on returns are the worst), poor fielding decisions, muffed catch, the dreaded run back, etc, etc.

 

Good players make for good special teams, which create good field position and a very important ingredient for winning. 

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Can you explain this a little more? 

 

Upthread, @JGMcD2 did some careful work and came up with the Bills spending $5M on ST-specific players.

 

Without doing the same careful work he did, I woulda said ST-specific players last season included (2020 salaries) Roberts ($2.3M), Taiwan Jones ($1.75M), and Matakevich ($3.4M) so $7.45M - I may be considering incentives that weren't reached etc and overestimating. 

 

I'm not considering punter, kicker, and long snapper as every team carries one, and the Bills clearly made the decision to bail and move on when confronted with a punter who wanted top-dawg-dollars.

 

That's 3.8% of the 2020 cap.  Care to explain how 3.8% is a significant "contributing cause" to being up against the cap without paying the QB/top receiver?  I mean, that's basically like "cut Trent Murphy last year instead of paying him to sit, Covered It" level.

 

If we're looking for significant cap management issues that interfere with paying the QB and his top receiving target, paying high dollar to an 11 man rotation of primarily free agent defensive linemen ($52M in 2020 per Spotrac, #1 in the league) is a far more significant issue.  That's 24% of the cap right there on 11 guys, and only 3 home-grown talents among the top 8 man rotation.  And none of them appear able to consistently "affect the QB" against the top OLs in the league.

 

ST looks like "chump change" to me by NFL standards, but also an area where the Bills may be pulling their belt in a bit this year - we'll see.

 

 

The ST unit is already primarily rookies and vet minimum guys, but the good teams all seem to have a handful of core "specialists" whose job it is to educate the rest on the details of their roles and herd the the cats into line.

 

I said the ST spending it is a contributing and not a root cause of their issues.  In my experience there is a difference, but I can understand some might not read it the way I explained.  At the same time, my issue with your analysis remains that you always know the cost to the discussion, but lack the understanding of the value. 

 

Aside from field goals, special teams is being minimized in overall strategy.  Punt and kick return games have been clipped (no pun intended) by virtue of rules changes and needing these specialist types isn't essential like 10 years ago when formations weren't outlawed.  Moreover, when I look at ST snap counts, I see more than just those specialists who were acquired as vets and primarily contribute there. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2020-snap-counts.htm

 

You've made the point that the cap unexpectedly decreased given the anomaly of the pandemic's affects on NFL finances.  Understood.  But between Matakevich, Andre Smith, Dean Marlowe, Taiwan Jones, Reggie Gilliam, and Andre Roberts, the team spent about 9M on ST specific type players.  And @BADOLBILZ has already pointed out how there is a development issue employing multiple specialists who do not typically play outside of ST. They prevent younger players from seeing the field and there's really no quantifying that either.  That's the value piece.  

 

I also disagree that 9M is chump change and, about represents ~5% of the cap dollars allotted this year.  It would have come in handy this year. 

 

If we're talking root cause, spending on defense (at the risk of belaboring the issue) is a root cause of their cap management challenges.  You've answered the question, which I've done in another thread as well.  That will become a major issue by next year when it's clear McD will need to yield on signing all these big dollar contracts and using high(er) draft picks on defense. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Aside from field goals, special teams is being minimized in overall strategy.  Punt and kick return games have been clipped (no pun intended) by virtue of rules changes and needing these specialist types isn't essential like 10 years ago when formations weren't outlawed.  Moreover, when I look at ST snap counts, I see more than just those specialists who were acquired as vets and primarily contribute there. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2020-snap-counts.htm

 

Fair point.

 

Quote

You've made the point that the cap unexpectedly decreased given the anomaly of the pandemic's affects on NFL finances.  Understood.  But between Matakevich, Andre Smith, Dean Marlowe, Taiwan Jones, Reggie Gilliam, and Andre Roberts, the team spent about 9M on ST specific type players.  And @BADOLBILZ has already pointed out how there is a development issue employing multiple specialists who do not typically play outside of ST. They prevent younger players from seeing the field and there's really no quantifying that either.  That's the value piece.  

 

I think Matakevich and Smith are looked at as developmental linebackers.  They saw extensive playing time against Miami; Dodson was healthy so I think the former has overtaken Dodson as the primary backup to Edmunds.  It's pretty common for teams to play developmental linebackers on ST.  Smith fits the Pittsburgh "Linebacker U" profile of a player who sits in the room and plays scout team/ST for a couple years then in his 3rd/4th year starts mixing it in. 

 

Matakevich is a bit longer in the tooth to be considered there.  He was 100% recruited for his ST chops, I give you that.

 

Dean Marlowe is the backup safety and saw extensive snaps on defense when Hyde was injured in a game.  He had an important role as such, and also regularly saw defensive snaps in different formations. 

 

Gilliam was a rookie, and regularly saw offensive snaps - 5%-ish at the start of the season and 10-20% until he got injured.  I don't see how you can call him a "ST specific type player", he seems like the reverse, the cheap rookie you want them to fill out the ST roster with while he's learning the game and seeing if he can take a step.

 

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I also disagree that 9M is chump change and, about represents ~5% of the cap dollars allotted this year.  It would have come in handy this year. 

 

I think you're padding your list above to get to that figure.  Teams need backups at positions like LB and safety.  Roberts, Taiwan Jones (the gunner) and Matakevich are genuinely players who were brought in for their ST chops alone.  But 3.7% vs 5% seems like a quibble to me.

 

 

Quote

If we're talking root cause, spending on defense (at the risk of belaboring the issue) is a root cause of their cap management challenges.  You've answered the question, which I've done in another thread as well.  That will become a major issue by next year when it's clear McD will need to yield on signing all these big dollar contracts and using high(er) draft picks on defense. 

 

[Hebert19]

Would you rather have a 6th LB or DB that never ever sees the field or someone who can at least impact one facet of the game. 

[BillsVet]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair point.

 

 

I think Matakevich and Smith are looked at as developmental linebackers.  They saw extensive playing time against Miami; Dodson was healthy so I think the former has overtaken Dodson as the primary backup to Edmunds.  It's pretty common for teams to play developmental linebackers on ST.  Smith fits the Pittsburgh "Linebacker U" profile of a player who sits in the room and plays scout team/ST for a couple years then in his 3rd/4th year starts mixing it in. 

 

Matakevich is a bit longer in the tooth to be considered there.  He was 100% recruited for his ST chops, I give you that.

 

Dean Marlowe is the backup safety and saw extensive snaps on defense when Hyde was injured in a game.  He had an important role as such, and also regularly saw defensive snaps in different formations. 

 

Gilliam was a rookie, and regularly saw offensive snaps - 5%-ish at the start of the season and 10-20% until he got injured.  I don't see how you can call him a "ST specific type player", he seems like the reverse, the cheap rookie you want them to fill out the ST roster with while he's learning the game and seeing if he can take a step.

 

 

I think you're padding your list above to get to that figure.  Teams need backups at positions like LB and safety.  Roberts, Taiwan Jones (the gunner) and Matakevich are genuinely players who were brought in for their ST chops alone.  But 3.7% vs 5% seems like a quibble to me.

 

I think we are, for the most part in agreement.  ST is not the major driver of cap issues, but a key ingredient of a McD coached team.  We'll find out whether that can be maintained long term because McD is gonna be here long term.

[GunnerBill]

The only three non-rookie deal guys who were here entirely for their special teams play in 2020 were Matakevich, Roberts and Jones. 

 

Andre Smith was on the entry level minimum, Reggie Gilliam, Jaquan Johnson, Daryl Johnson and Siran Neal are on rookie deals (and already squarely fit in the "Bills must find special teams value with cheap draft picks) and Dean Marlowe is a backup safety who places Special Teams. Not a Special Teamer who player safety. Whoever was in that 3rd safety slot would play a fair bit on teams.

 

The Bills have let Roberts walk this year (we had him at $2m per year, the Texans are paying him closer to $3m AAV) and let Bojo walk rather than pay him. 

 

There is nothing about their roster building on special teams that is inconsistent with other successful teams and one consistency is you don't win Championships with bad special teams. 

[BigDingus]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:18 PM, FireChans said:

This is lunacy. This is idiotic. 
 

Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? 
 

It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter?

 

The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. 
 

It’s upsetting to say the least.

 

Congratulations on creating the most one-sided disliked threat I think I've ever seen... 

Considering all the things posted on here, that's quite the accomplishment. 

[JoPoy88]

5 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

I think we are, for the most part in agreement.  ST is not the major driver of cap issues, but a key ingredient of a McD coached team.  We'll find out whether that can be maintained long term because McD is gonna be here long term.

But it’s not really agreement unless you’re backing off of many of your claims. You’re just wrong and slowly coming around to it. 

 

you (and the OP, who’s somehow disappeared from this discussion) said it WAS detrimental to the cap, so much so that it’s hurting the team. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by JoPoy88

[BillsVet]

7 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

But it’s not really agreement unless you’re backing off of many of your claims. You’re just wrong and slowly coming around to it. 

 

you (and the OP, who’s somehow disappeared from this discussion) said it WAS detrimental to the cap, so much so that it’s hurting the team. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

 

[PrimeTime101]

I don't even no why this thread isn't locked.  The world hates this thread and what is contributing to just a horrible thread?

[Simon Says]

On 3/18/2021 at 5:40 PM, TBBills said:

Chargers were #1 and #2 in offense and defense but couldn't make the playoffs one year b.c they were last in ST (forget what year that was) Your logic is Garbage and you shouldn't have posting this horrible thread.

Now,now ....don't want to be construed as "abusive" or hurt anyone's feelings  ..but I think he might trying to demonstrate his sophisticated wit and could be pulling our legs.

[muppy]

I dont need to read this thread to know the OP decided to run with a hot take and it is likely a decision he/she now regrets......I mean why would an NFL team NOT want to focus on special teams they are essential to a winning franchise and those depth players may well be starters due to injury to offensive or defensive starters at some point as well.

[folz]

I've always said this about punters, but it goes for all special teams as well. You don't care about them (or don't think about their worth) until you don't have a good one. And then it becomes painfully obvious how important they are. Field position is a huge component of the game and when your special teams stink, you will probably be on the losing end of the field position battle in any given game.

 

Does the OP not remember 2018 when our roster was depleted (to fix the cap situation)? Special teams directly cost us three wins that season, imo.

[Orlando Buffalo]

On 3/19/2021 at 2:36 PM, KingBoots8 said:

You say this until a music city miracle happens to you.

You should be banned for being that up😀

[Ponch]

On 3/18/2021 at 5:27 PM, FireChans said:

Can we please stop living 30 years in the past?

 

”Granted the league was completely different, the rules were completely different, the strategy was completely different and the coaches were even stupider than they were today.”

 

So basically, who cares?

Who kicked your dog? 

[KingBoots8]

22 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

You should be banned for being that up😀

Lol I only did it because, as the quote goes, “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.”

 

id rather invest a little bit more into ST to ensure we have the right people to avoid that happening again.