Are you scared of the CAP?

[mjt328]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

The cap isn't completely meaningless, but I do think Bills fans assign way too much importance to it. You can look around the NFL and see many teams doing creative things to get around the cap. 

 

The Saints have been in cap hell for multiple years now. During that time they've been one of the best teams in the league, and a perennial super bowl contender (no SB appearances, but they've had brutal playoff losses). Have they really had to pay for manipulating the cap? If they have I'm not seeing it. 

 

Teams will sometimes go into a year realizing they won't be competitive and decide to bite the bullet on bad contracts (see: 2018 Buffalo Bills ). We didn't HAVE to eat 30mm in dead cap by trading away Dareus, Glenn, and Taylor, but we CHOSE to do that to give us more of an advantage in 2019.

 

Teams are only punished by the cap when they chose to be. 

 

I mentioned the Saints in another thread.

They won the Super Bowl back in 2009, right when the team started to hit its stride.  For the most part, they were able to keep the core of that team together for about 4 years.  Then the big contracts started catching up, and the salary cap started becoming a bigger issue.  It started with them letting defensive talent go.  But then started trickling over to the O-Line and receivers.

 

In 2014, 2015 and 2016, the Saints were NOT a very good team.  They went 7-9 every season in that stretch, and Drew Brees was pretty much carrying the roster by himself.  Bills fans only remember them being able to steal Jairus Byrd from us, despite being tight on the cap.  They don't remember the other players the Saints had to let go of, or that Byrd was released at the mid-point of his deal.  

 

Don't let yourself be fooled.  The stupid contracts that New Orleans handed out in 2010-2014 (like Byrd) were the ones that killed their roster.

 

The Saints eventually dug themselves out of cap hell by doing things like trading Jimmy Graham and Brandin Cooks for draft picks, instead of paying them the big bucks.  They also did a fantastic job of drafting.  The 2016 class was good.  And the 2017 class was one of the best draft classes I've seen in the last decade.  Those picks were the foundation for them rebuilding the roster, and putting together 4 more strong seasons before Drew Brees ended up retiring.  Now the cap has caught up again, and they are being forced to start over.

 

Was it worth it?  Who knows.

If the Saints had been wiser with their cap dollars, maybe they wouldn't have had that 3-year drop-off from 2014-2016.  
 

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

See: Whaley, Doug (and the mess that Brandon Beane inherited and spent years to dig himself out of)

[ColoradoBills]

There is a cap no matter what GMs can do to get around it short term.

The Bills are in great shape and I'm sure Beane knows it more than us.

Almost all of the Playoff Caliber Teams right now have multiple players on "restructure" contracts and the Bills have none.

 

The RISK when restructuring too many payers beyond the backloading of guarantees is that these high "Dead Cap"

players better perform!  If you got to get rid of them for whatever reason it results in too much of dead money which

everyone can acknowledge is not a good thing.  We had a DT a few years back that's a perfect example.

 

The Eagles for instance have 11 players on restructures AND a $40M Dead Cap this year.

But the easiest way IMO to judge if a team has overused this technique is to look at how much total Dead Money the current players have.

Eagles have A LOT.  Bills not so much and almost half that they do have is in 3 players (Tre, Dion and Matt), young players who are

in the core of the team.  One thing you don't want is a lot of potential dead money on old players!

[Jay_Fixit]

I’m more scared of how to pronounce your name than the CAP.

 

The people in charge will figure the CAP out.

[GoBills808]

Salary cap advice from the Chiefs?

 

Let me guess, next up is domestic violence seminars and drunk driving lecture series

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

2 hours ago, mjt328 said:

 

I mentioned the Saints in another thread.

They won the Super Bowl back in 2009, right when the team started to hit its stride.  For the most part, they were able to keep the core of that team together for about 4 years.  Then the big contracts started catching up, and the salary cap started becoming a bigger issue.  It started with them letting defensive talent go.  But then started trickling over to the O-Line and receivers.

 

In 2014, 2015 and 2016, the Saints were NOT a very good team.  They went 7-9 every season in that stretch, and Drew Brees was pretty much carrying the roster by himself.  Bills fans only remember them being able to steal Jairus Byrd from us, despite being tight on the cap.  They don't remember the other players the Saints had to let go of, or that Byrd was released at the mid-point of his deal.  

 

Don't let yourself be fooled.  The stupid contracts that New Orleans handed out in 2010-2014 (like Byrd) were the ones that killed their roster.

 

The Saints eventually dug themselves out of cap hell by doing things like trading Jimmy Graham and Brandin Cooks for draft picks, instead of paying them the big bucks.  They also did a fantastic job of drafting.  The 2016 class was good.  And the 2017 class was one of the best draft classes I've seen in the last decade.  Those picks were the foundation for them rebuilding the roster, and putting together 4 more strong seasons before Drew Brees ended up retiring.  Now the cap has caught up again, and they are being forced to start over.

 

Was it worth it?  Who knows.

If the Saints had been wiser with their cap dollars, maybe they wouldn't have had that 3-year drop-off from 2014-2016.  
 

 

 

 

The Saints are an interesting case study. You can point to the '14-'16 seasons and say they were bad because they mishandled the cap. You can also make the opposite point and look to the '17-'20 seasons to say that being in cap hell doesn't matter. They've had a minimum of 20mm dead cap in every season since 2017, BUT they've had the best regular season record over that time. Kicking the can down the road did not hurt them the last 4 years. 

 

Trading away Graham and Cooks didn't help with their cap situation. Trading players away results in dead cap (they incurred 9mm dead cap when they traded Graham). Those were still good trades and good decisions, but it did not help with cap hell. 

 

Has the cap really caught up to the Saints in 2021? Or, with Brees retiring, are they essentially punting on this season to position themselves for success in 2022? 

 

There's an accounting concept about this called taking a "big bath". Companies take as many losses as they can in 1 year so their future earnings look better. NFL teams use the same concept (like the Bills did in 2018). 

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Hell no, treat the cap like another 1.9 trillion Covid bill and let’s get some player and let the younger Bills fans pay for it. This strategy give us a good chance to win a SB in the next 4 year but will kill us in 2025. It’s worth the risk.

[Southern_Bills]

6 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

We do have a team that was 13-3 last season and most of the guys are back.  There’s no need to be restructuring all these big contracts we currently have and pushing money down the road to future years when Beane has to pay Allen and Diggs very shortly.  Sign a depth guy or two then draft well.  

 

I disagree, you have a 13-3 team with a QB. Sell out and win a SB, its all about the SB. You want to be a bridesmaid not a bride? Yeah right.

 

NFL is not structured for dynasties, IMO get what you need and win the big one. Trade the #1 pick for Mack and restructure his contract to make it fit. Tomorrow is not the day to live today is.

[Zerovoltz]

Lots of good discussion here.....I did not intend for this to be about what KC does or how they opperate.  I was asking YOU ALL...because of what I've seen around here....cap worry....especially when it involves Allens upcoming deal.  (KC FANS WERE NO DIFFERENT before Mahoems signed) 

 

I had forgotten the dark day when the Bills let go of Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas due to the "cap".   

 

KC also used to have alot of the same conditioning from the top when Lamar was still alive and Carl Petersen was running things....I can't tell you how many times Carl Petersen would say "Cash and Cap Dollars" in a press conference...it was maddening.  

 

Anyhow...I was asking to legitmately ask and see what people thought....and many of you answered....lots of good thoughts here about the topic.

[CountDorkula]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

See: Whaley, Doug (and the mess that Brandon Beane inherited and spent years to dig himself out of)

Years?

 

You mean one year of high dead cap and then it was done.

 

The salary cap is going to be 260 million in three-five years.

 

Stop worrying. 

[BillsFanForever19]

9 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

Years?

 

You mean one year of high dead cap and then it was done.

 

The salary cap is going to be 260 million in three-five years.

 

Stop worrying. 

 

What you, me, and anyone else think's doesn't matter. It's what Beane thinks and how he operates. And not spending to the cap and hampering yourself in the future is something he has been about and has talked about since day one. And he's done a pretty good job as a whole with that mindset. Sorry it's not as fun for you this offseason.

Edited March 18, 2021 by BillsFanForever19

[WhoTom]

Beane just re-signed three players we "couldn't afford" to very team-friendly deals and picked up a FA backup QB, who could very well be the 2nd best QB in our division, for peanuts.

 

Nah - I'm not afraid of the cap.

 

 

[Billl]

17 hours ago, MJS said:

I think you are a little spoiled by your QB on a rookie deal. Kansas City WILL start feeling it sooner or later once that contract kicks in.

You’re the same guy who just said this about Josh...

7 minutes ago, MJS said:

I think he'll take a discount. 30 to 35 million per.

I’m not sure you understand how this all works.

[MJS]

5 minutes ago, Billl said:

You’re the same guy who just said this about Josh...

I’m not sure you understand how this all works.

Do you have some kind of problem with what I said?

[Billl]

Just now, MJS said:

Do you have some kind of problem with what I said?

Not a problem, I just find it amusing that you think Josh is going to leave $100,000,000 on the table whereas Mahomes’s incredibly team friendly deal is going to be some sort of albatross.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Not a problem, I just find it amusing that you think Josh is going to leave $100,000,000 on the table whereas Mahomes’s incredibly team friendly deal is going to be some sort of albatross.

I gave a hot take. If you have a problem with my guess, take it up with my agent.

 

My guess is just as valid as the darts everyone else is throwing at the wall.

 

What's your guess? You know, so I can reply and laugh at how off it is when the real contract comes out.

[Billl]

Just now, MJS said:

I gave a hot take. If you have a problem with my guess, take it up with my agent.

 

My guess is just as valid as the darts everyone else is throwing at the wall.

 

What's your guess? You know, so I can reply and laugh at how off it is when the real contract comes out.

I’ll venture somewhere around 6 years and $270,000,000 with $150,000,000 guaranteed.  Dak just got $40,000,000 AAV.  No chance Allen takes 75% of that.  Nearly no chance he takes only 100% of that.

[Royale with Cheese]

If you put an L after the C.....I'm definitely afraid of that.

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

If you put an L after the C.....I'm definitely afraid of that.

Yeah, McD got a lot of grief for that McClappy stuff! You don’t want that! 

 

That’s what you meant, right?

 

Or........ maybe you should be more concerned about your vision.......🤷‍♂️

[WhoTom]

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

If you put an L after the C.....I'm definitely afraid of that.

 

A little penicillin  will clear that right up.

 

(... or so I've been told.)