Richard Noggin Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 I'm appreciating everyone showing their work on this problem, so I can follow along vicariously.
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2021 Author Posted March 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Sorry to reply to myself, but I want to refer to the earlier post. If what I'm thinking now is so, that would not be great news. It would mean that the $15M is essentially a potential cap hit on Spotrac and OvertheCap right now. That would mean that we'd pretty much be forced to use the option, otherwise our available cap would drop by $15M this year. In other words, if we exercise this option, we wouldn't add $15M to the $9M we have under the cap now. Instead, by exercising this option we'd be avoiding taking $15M off the cap rather than actually adding $15M on. I hope I'm wrong about that, but that's how it looks to me. I didn't look this far into it and figured that this was not part of the cap space yet. If not, exercised we would be what ~$6 million over the cap?
Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: I am actually thinking what is left of the $15 million is the $9m in space, which does not include Sanders. For arguments sake if Sanders is a straight $6 we have $3 left and that's it. Why do you think the $15 isn't there? Because the cap space was listed as $9M for the last couple of days, going back to before free agency and the day when we could have started to exercise the option. And also because if the options had been exercised, we'd see the money on their 2024 figures, and in neither case do we. I'm not sure about this at all, but it's my best guess.
BuffaloRebound Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Yes, very confusing. I am not sure about any of this, but my guess is that it's guaranteed either year, 2021 or 2024, and they have to exercise the option if they want to move it to 2024 (and slightly increase the amount at the same time). If they don't exercise the option, each guy will then have to be paid a $7.5M roster bonus this year that is not yet accounted for in the Bills cap. Right. So it’s already been accounted for because there’s no way the Bills were taking the full cap hit in 2021. Non-story.
Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 Just now, Reed83HOF said: I didn't look this far into it and figured that this was not part of the cap space yet. If not, exercised we would be what ~$6 million over the cap? If I'm right (again, I'm not sure at all), and they have not exercised these yet, and they chose to NOT exercise them, at the end of the option period we would lose $15M on this year's cap and Tre and Dion would each cost $7.5M more on this year's cap than they are listed at now. And since we'd then go under the cap, I don't think we could do this unless we find a way to otherwise gain cap space in the meantime. 2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: Right. So it’s already been accounted for because there’s no way the Bills were taking the full cap hit in 2021. Non-story. Wouldn't call it a non-story. It'll increase cap costs in 2024. But yeah - again, only if I'm right about this - this year's cap should stay the same as it is listed at now, and has been listed at.
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2021 Author Posted March 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: If I'm right (again, I'm not sure at all), and they have not exercised these yet, and they chose to NOT exercise them, at the end of the option period we would lose $15M on this year's cap and Tre and Dion would each cost $7.5M more on this year's cap than they are listed at now. And since we'd then go under the cap, I don't think we could do this unless we find a way to otherwise gain cap space in the meantime. I asked this dude where he found this answer.....
BuffaloRebound Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said: I asked this dude where he found this answer..... Maybe for the official number kept by the NFL, but spotrac assumed the Bills would exercise this for the last couple months. But it could also be the reason Feliciano didn’t sign his contract until today because for the official NFL number that $15m in cap space didn’t hit until today.
Tuco Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 If you look at the numbers closely, and then realize that almost every guaranteed option bonus is almost always exercised and pro-rated, you will realize, by adding the numbers and looking at the numbers reported on Spotrac, that the team likely informed the league they would be exercising the options as soon as the new year kicked in, and because of that the numbers we have been looking at on Spotrac for the last month have already figured this move in. It does still appear as an option on some sites as the language is no doubt written to give the Bills 5 days. But the reality is it has been done, and has been considered done by the league and Spotrac for some time now. There is no magical $15 mil available to us in the next 5 days from these moves. It also isn't really the breaking news the original tweeter would have people believe. It is, in fact, a nothing burger. Carry on. 1
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2021 Author Posted March 18, 2021 Just now, BuffaloRebound said: Maybe for the official number kept by the NFL, but spotrac assumed the Bills would exercise this for the last couple months. But it could also be the reason Feliciano didn’t sign his contract until today because for the official NFL number that $15m in cap space didn’t hit until today. I got it I think: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/8/27/21403793/buffalo-bills-full-contract-details-dion-dawkins-numbers-show-its-not-a-prove-it-deal-salary-cap The most interesting piece for me was the 2021 option bonus of $7.5 million. It’s a salary cap maneuver and is not a typical straight roster bonus. Instead, it’s an option for the Bills to completely re-write the deal and use the $7.5 as a new signing bonus, spreading out the cap hit over the remaining years of the deal. With the salary cap expected to be artificially low in 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic, this saves the Bills valuable space next year. It also makes it pretty darn likely Dawkins will see every dime of the contract. Just now, Reed83HOF said: I got it I think: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/8/27/21403793/buffalo-bills-full-contract-details-dion-dawkins-numbers-show-its-not-a-prove-it-deal-salary-cap The most interesting piece for me was the 2021 option bonus of $7.5 million. It’s a salary cap maneuver and is not a typical straight roster bonus. Instead, it’s an option for the Bills to completely re-write the deal and use the $7.5 as a new signing bonus, spreading out the cap hit over the remaining years of the deal. With the salary cap expected to be artificially low in 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic, this saves the Bills valuable space next year. It also makes it pretty darn likely Dawkins will see every dime of the contract. Tre https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2020/9/14/21436517/tredavious-white-contract-details-outstanding-deal-for-the-buffalo-bills-cornerback Like Dion Dawkins, the Bills used a 2021 fully guaranteed option bonus to spread out the cap hit of the new deal over the course of six years and not overload the 2021 cap, which is supposed to be artificially lowered due to COVID-19. They also didn’t include any workout, playing time, or Pro Bowl bonuses until 2022
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2021 Author Posted March 18, 2021 13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: If I'm right (again, I'm not sure at all), and they have not exercised these yet, and they chose to NOT exercise them, at the end of the option period we would lose $15M on this year's cap and Tre and Dion would each cost $7.5M more on this year's cap than they are listed at now. And since we'd then go under the cap, I don't think we could do this unless we find a way to otherwise gain cap space in the meantime. Wouldn't call it a non-story. It'll increase cap costs in 2024. But yeah - again, only if I'm right about this - this year's cap should stay the same as it is listed at now, and has been listed at.
Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) Ah, I was actually right. Nice when that happens every once in a while. 1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said: Yeah, they can kick more cans down the road. But doing so continues to eat away at the cap space that will be needed over the next couple of years to sign Josh, give more money to Diggs, etc. We're already down to $33M in 2022, and there are still a number of signings that haven't been accounted for yet in that figure. So far, Beane hasn't showed himself the kind of guy who loves to do that. Which I like. Wouldn't be surprised to see one or two more of those. But I doubt they'll kick every can people are hoping for. 1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said: Right. So it’s already been accounted for because there’s no way the Bills were taking the full cap hit in 2021. Non-story. It has NOT been accounted for anywhere. It's not a non-story, it's a small story about the cap in 2024 and 2025. It hadn't been accounted for anywhere. It's listed now in neither 2021 nor the later years. When they do exercise the options, as they will, the money will appear on Tre's contract in 2025, on Dion's contract in 2024, and on the Bills cap in those two years. Edited March 18, 2021 by Thurman#1 1
BuffaloRebound Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Ah, I was actually right. Nice when that happens every once in a while. Yeah, they can kick more cans down the road. But doing so continues to eat away at the cap space that will be needed over the next couple of years to sign Josh, give more money to Diggs, etc. We're already down to $33M in 2022, and there are still a number of signings that haven't been accounted for yet in that figure. So far, Beane hasn't showed himself the kind of guy who loves to do that. Which I like. Wouldn't be surprised to see one or two more of those. But I doubt they'll kick every can people are hoping for. It has NOT been accounted for anywhere. It's not a non-story, it's a small story about the cap in 2024 and 2025. It hadn't been accounted for anywhere. It's listed now in neither 2021 nor the later years. When they do exercise the options, as they will, the money will appear on Tre's contract in 2025, on Dion's contract in 2024, and on the Bills cap in those two years. It creates no cap space in 2021. The original post implied it did. Spotrac had it in their numbers already. That’s what everybody’s going off of unless you have access to the NFL’s official cap numbers.
Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: It creates no cap space in 2021. The original post implied it did. Spotrac had it in their numbers already. That’s what everybody’s going off of unless you have access to the NFL’s official cap numbers. Yes, I get that it creates no cap space in 2021. I've said that again and again in my last several posts. But no, I don't believe Spotrac had it in their numbers already. And for good reason. It was an option. Spotrac did not know whether the Bills would choose to have it count in 2021 or whether they'd choose it to count in 2024 for Dion and 2025 for Tre. They're not going to put it in both places, as that would screw up the numbers. They don't know which place to put it. And they're not in the business of guessing. So (I believe) they didn't count it in either place. They waited for the Bills to choose. Within the next few days the Bills will choose. They won't choose 2021, of course. If you look at Spotrac, they list a 2021 option bonus for Dion. But it's not calculated into his cap hit, dead cap or yearly cash. It's only listed in the bullet points below the chart. It's easy to see that that's true. They list the $7.5M bonus in the bullet points, but they don't calculate it into the chart. Neither is it calculated into the bonuses in 2024. Yet. I believe it will be within the next five days. That's a $15M story, but in the future, so not a very big story. Edited March 18, 2021 by Thurman#1
ndirish1978 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said: Guess I’ll put that one with the other Twitter rumours past three days Doesn't mean he didn't, just wasn't convincing. I wouldn't pay 10M for Peterson at this stage in his career.
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2021 Author Posted March 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Ah, I was actually right. Nice when that happens every once in a while. Yeah, they can kick more cans down the road. But doing so continues to eat away at the cap space that will be needed over the next couple of years to sign Josh, give more money to Diggs, etc. We're already down to $33M in 2022, and there are still a number of signings that haven't been accounted for yet in that figure. So far, Beane hasn't showed himself the kind of guy who loves to do that. Which I like. Wouldn't be surprised to see one or two more of those. But I doubt they'll kick every can people are hoping for. It has NOT been accounted for anywhere. It's not a non-story, it's a small story about the cap in 2024 and 2025. It hadn't been accounted for anywhere. It's listed now in neither 2021 nor the later years. When they do exercise the options, as they will, the money will appear on Tre's contract in 2025, on Dion's contract in 2024, and on the Bills cap in those two years.
BuffaloRebound Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Yes, I get that it creates no cap space in 2021. I've said that again and again in my last several posts. But no, I don't believe Spotrac had it in their numbers already. And for good reason. It was an option. Spotrac did not know whether the Bills would choose to have it count in 2021 or whether they'd choose it to count in 2024 for Dion and 2025 for Tre. They're not going to put it in both places, as that would screw up the numbers. They don't know which place to put it. And they're not in the business of guessing. So (I believe) they didn't count it in either place. They waited for the Bills to choose. Within the next few days the Bills will choose. They won't choose 2021, of course. If you look at Spotrac, they list a 2021 option bonus for Dion. But it's not calculated into his cap hit, dead cap or yearly cash. It's only listed in the bullet points below the chart. It's easy to see that that's true. They list the $7.5M bonus in the bullet points, but they don't calculate it into the chart. Neither is it calculated into the bonuses in 2024. Yet. I believe it will be within the next five days. That's a $15M story, but in the future, so not a very big story. It’s a lot more simple than you’re making it. There’s a $7.5m guaranteed option bonus that the Bills could either take the cap hit on entirely in 2021 or spread over the next 4 years. The Bills were clearly gonna exercise the option to spread the cap hit over 4 years so Spotrac had the bonus spread over 4 years in their numbers before the exercise date. The original tweet that started this thread confused everyone.
Tuco Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Yes, I get that it creates no cap space in 2021. I've said that again and again in my last several posts. But no, I don't believe Spotrac had it in their numbers already. And for good reason. It was an option. Spotrac did not know whether the Bills would choose to have it count in 2021 or whether they'd choose it to count in 2024 for Dion and 2025 for Tre. They're not going to put it in both places, as that would screw up the numbers. They don't know which place to put it. And they're not in the business of guessing. So (I believe) they didn't count it in either place. They waited for the Bills to choose. Within the next few days the Bills will choose. They won't choose 2021, of course. If you look at Spotrac, they list a 2021 option bonus for Dion. But it's not calculated into his cap hit (yes it is, add it up - $1.875 mil per year from 2021-2024 = a prorated $7.5 million), dead cap or yearly cash. It's only listed in the bullet points below the chart. It's easy to see that that's true. They list the $7.5M bonus in the bullet points, but they don't calculate it into the chart. Neither is it calculated into the bonuses in 2024. Yet. I believe it will be within the next five days. That's a $15M story, but in the future, so not a very big story. Sorry but you're wrong. It has all been accounted for and reported as such, for quite some time now. But for starters let's look at a real website instead of what was originally reported by some Twitter guy looking for attention. Go here- https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-2021-nfl-offseason-dates-to-know-for-free-agency-contract-options-franchise-tags-and-more/ - then scroll down to March 17 and you will see this paragraph- Bills: The first day of a five-day period for the team to exercise options for offensive tackle Dion Dawkins and cornerback Tre'Davious White's 2024 and 2025 contract years worth $10.3 million and. $12,535,093, respectively. Paying the required $7.5 million for Dawkins' 2024 contract will drop his fully guaranteed $14.8 million 2021 base salary to a fully guaranteed $7.3 million. The $7.5 million for White's 2025 contract year will take his fully guaranteed $17.95 million 2021 base salary to a fully guaranteed $10.45 million. For now we'll just look at Tre White. It's probably still not clear the way it's worded, but what they're talking about is taking $7.5 million of 2021 salary, using an option to turn that into signing bonus (or prorated option bonus if you will), bringing his $17.95 million salary for 2021 down to $10.45 million. And in doing so, the option also calls for adding a year to White's contract in 2025 worth $12,535,093. Now let's look at White's Spotrac page- We can see White's 2021 salary is listed as $10.45 million, with the $17.95 million figure already reduced by the $7.5 million option bonus turned signing bonus that started this whole thing. We can further see that the 2025 season with an exact total of $12,535,093(salary, $10,485,093 + roster bonus, $1,750,000 + workout bonus, $300,000 = $12,535,093), the same as the above mentioned amount, has been added. And lastly, we can also see the $7.5 million that was taken from the $17.95 2021 salary (reducing it to $10.45 million) has been paid and is listed with a $1,500,000 million proration under the "option" bonus tab (again, yes it is counted in the cap hit) for the years 2021-2025 ($1.5 million X 5 years = $7.5 million). Dawkins contract looks the same only the years and numbers are different. So the option for each player was, (A) don't exercise it and leave their 2021 salaries at $17.95 million and $14.8 million guaranteed, or (B) exercise the option by taking $7.5 million from each of their guaranteed salaries (making them $10.95 million and $7.3 million instead, add a year onto each (2024 for Dawkins, 2025 for White) in order to gain an extra year to prorate the $7.5 million bonus. No doubt the Bills didn't want to go into the new season with a $17.95 million plus cap hit for White and a $14.8+ million for Dawkins only to then reduce their cap numbers after they made room for all that under the cap. So they went with option B, which was no doubt the plan all along. It's a certainty they sent an official notice to the league informing them they would be exercising these 2 options the moment the new year went into effect, at 4:00 PM on the 17th. And Spotrac, with all their resources knew about it and has reported it as such. Regardless, everything that's going to happen is already accounted for and reported on Spotrac. There is no $15 million story, and nothing is going to change in regards to these options in the next 5 days. Not in 2021, 2024 or 2025. Edited March 18, 2021 by Tuco 1 1
Thurman#1 Posted March 19, 2021 Posted March 19, 2021 10 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said: It’s a lot more simple than you’re making it. There’s a $7.5m guaranteed option bonus that the Bills could either take the cap hit on entirely in 2021 or spread over the next 4 years. The Bills were clearly gonna exercise the option to spread the cap hit over 4 years so Spotrac had the bonus spread over 4 years in their numbers before the exercise date. The original tweet that started this thread confused everyone. The minute I claim to be right, even though I said it only happens occasionally, I get proven about half-wrong. Thank you. I was totally misled by the original tweet which seemed to say it was all falling onto the later years. I was wrong. You were right. 10 hours ago, Tuco said: Sorry but you're wrong. It has all been accounted for and reported as such, for quite some time now. But for starters let's look at a real website instead of what was originally reported by some Twitter guy looking for attention. Go here- https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-2021-nfl-offseason-dates-to-know-for-free-agency-contract-options-franchise-tags-and-more/ - then scroll down to March 17 and you will see this paragraph- Bills: The first day of a five-day period for the team to exercise options for offensive tackle Dion Dawkins and cornerback Tre'Davious White's 2024 and 2025 contract years worth $10.3 million and. $12,535,093, respectively. Paying the required $7.5 million for Dawkins' 2024 contract will drop his fully guaranteed $14.8 million 2021 base salary to a fully guaranteed $7.3 million. The $7.5 million for White's 2025 contract year will take his fully guaranteed $17.95 million 2021 base salary to a fully guaranteed $10.45 million. For now we'll just look at Tre White. It's probably still not clear the way it's worded, but what they're talking about is taking $7.5 million of 2021 salary, using an option to turn that into signing bonus (or prorated option bonus if you will), bringing his $17.95 million salary for 2021 down to $10.45 million. And in doing so, the option also calls for adding a year to White's contract in 2025 worth $12,535,093. Now let's look at White's Spotrac page- We can see White's 2021 salary is listed as $10.45 million, with the $17.95 million figure already reduced by the $7.5 million option bonus turned signing bonus that started this whole thing. We can further see that the 2025 season with an exact total of $12,535,093(salary, $10,485,093 + roster bonus, $1,750,000 + workout bonus, $300,000 = $12,535,093), the same as the above mentioned amount, has been added. And lastly, we can also see the $7.5 million that was taken from the $17.95 2021 salary (reducing it to $10.45 million) has been paid and is listed with a $1,500,000 million proration under the "option" bonus tab (again, yes it is counted in the cap hit) for the years 2021-2025 ($1.5 million X 5 years = $7.5 million). Dawkins contract looks the same only the years and numbers are different. So the option for each player was, (A) don't exercise it and leave their 2021 salaries at $17.95 million and $14.8 million guaranteed, or (B) exercise the option by taking $7.5 million from each of their guaranteed salaries (making them $10.95 million and $7.3 million instead, add a year onto each (2024 for Dawkins, 2025 for White) in order to gain an extra year to prorate the $7.5 million bonus. No doubt the Bills didn't want to go into the new season with a $17.95 million plus cap hit for White and a $14.8+ million for Dawkins only to then reduce their cap numbers after they made room for all that under the cap. So they went with option B, which was no doubt the plan all along. It's a certainty they sent an official notice to the league informing them they would be exercising these 2 options the moment the new year went into effect, at 4:00 PM on the 17th. And Spotrac, with all their resources knew about it and has reported it as such. Regardless, everything that's going to happen is already accounted for and reported on Spotrac. There is no $15 million story, and nothing is going to change in regards to these options in the next 5 days. Not in 2021, 2024 or 2025. Thanks, the CBS story helped a lot, as did your explanation. I was wrong. Appreciate your help. 1
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