Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 7 hours ago, mjt328 said: Not really. Between the contract they gave Emmanuel Sanders ($6.5) and the dead money leftover from Brown ($1.6), they maybe saved $1 million. If Brown was playing hardball for money and didn't want a paycut, he wouldn't have settled for such a small offer from the Raiders. The Bills clearly had no interest in bringing him back. The $8 million they saved was after the dead money was taken out. $7.9 to be precise. And the Sanders deal is $6 mill, not $6.5. Yes, there is 500K in incentives, but he might or might not ever get them, and if he does they hit the 2022 cap, not 2021. So that's about $2 mill. Not the $3 I had thought, but about $2 mill. I didn't argue that Brown was playing hardball, or that they wanted him back. It's clear they didn't, if they didn't make him any offer. I argued that the reasons they didn't want him back was to save money and because he spent half the year injured and it wasn't just one injury. He had multiple leg injuries, and at his age, that's frightening for teams. In the playoffs he was back but had lost his explosiveness. They effectively doubled Diggs and Beasley, and the countermeasure should have been Brown. A healthy Brown would probably have had a great day. He couldn't take advantage. 1
Thurman#1 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Logic said: I think it was @Hapless Bills Fan that said it here first, and then I saw Erik Turner and Greg Tompsett of Cover 1 talk about it on Twitter: John Brown too easily got erased by aggressive press coverage last year. He too easily got erased from whole games, in general. Seeing now how much Brown signed for, compared to how much Sanders cost, and then keeping in mind that the Bills didn't even ask Brown to take a pay cut (according to Brown)...it just seems like the Bills view Sanders as un upgrade. In particular, as Turner pointed out: Teams started to play two-high safety zone coverage shells more and more as the year went on to force the Bills to dink and dunk their way own field. It took the offense some time to adjust, and Brown was not particularly helpful in these situations. By contrast, Sanders is more physical, a better route runner in general, and can work underneath more effectively. So while they gave up the speed and familiarity of Brown, they gained the physicality and route running of Sanders and, thus, theoretically gained the ability to more effectively operate against the two-high shells and/or to force defenses back into playing man-to-man. TL;DR: Beane and McDermott seem to feel that Sanders is simply better than Brown, or at least more effective at doing what they need from a WR2. They replaced Brown with Sanders as a means of more effectively operating in the short and intermediate game, so that when teams go to soft zones, the Bills can more effectively counter. While I see that logic, Logic, it sure looked to me like Smoke was having trouble working underneath largely due to his injuries. In 2019 he worked underneath very effectively often. This year his cuts didn't seem as dangerous or sudden, particularly later in the year. Sanders may well be more effective at underneath stuff, I haven't seen much more than a few highlights in quite a while. In 2019 he didn't get much press at all because when he did, he ate it up. But unless Sanders has enough speed, I think the counter this year won't be as much two-deep, as they'll only be worried about Diggs deep, rather than have a burner on each side. We'll see. Edited March 18, 2021 by Thurman#1 1
Logic Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said: But unless Sanders has enough speed, I think the counter this year won't be as much two-deep, as they'll only be worried about Diggs deep, rather than have a burner on each side. Fair. The only thing I'll say to that is that the Bills were without Brown for quite a few games last year, and teams were still two-highing them quite a bit in some of those games. Furthermore, while Gabriel Davis doesn't have deep "speed", per se, he IS a deep threat. His 17.1 yards per reception attest to that. John Brown, by comparison, has a career 14.8 yards per reception average. 1
Royale with Cheese Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 52 minutes ago, Logic said: Fair. The only thing I'll say to that is that the Bills were without Brown for quite a few games last year, and teams were still two-highing them quite a bit in some of those games. Furthermore, while Gabriel Davis doesn't have deep "speed", per se, he IS a deep threat. His 17.1 yards per reception attest to that. John Brown, by comparison, has a career 14.8 yards per reception average. Davis is a guy that when he's one on one, just throw it up and make him high point a ball deep threat. 2
Logic Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Interesting Beane said they needed to get faster and they’ve done the opposite to this point..... I expect and hope for a burner at some point in the draft. I, too, expect speed to be added via the draft. Particularly at WR, RB, and CB. Here’s hoping.
Teddy KGB Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 11 hours ago, StHustle said: I really thought you knew football better than this...smh Agholor will make 3 times as much for a reason. Please stop digging this hole.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: In 2019 he didn't get much press at all because when he did, he ate it up. I felt that in 2019, Brown got erased by aggressive (physical) man coverage in the Browns and in the Ravens game. Brown kind of said as much after the latter, said "the refs ought to call a better game then we would have a better game" or something like that. I think it was a factor in the Houston playoff as well but I honestly don't remember what coverage they were playing, maybe I've kind of blocked that game out of my mind.
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 13 hours ago, SirAndrew said: I think this is the best analysis considering the cost and talent of the players involved. I don’t see Sanders as an upgrade over Brown like others do. I think both guys are capable of similar production. I’m happy with the Sanders acquisition because it filled a need after letting Brown go. I see it as a lateral move. I don’t agree with all this talk about opponents shutting down Brown. Brown was shut down by physical defensive play both times against KC, but our entire offense got shut down by KC twice. Brown isn’t the most physical receiver, but people are talking about him like he disappears on a regular basis. What number two wideout doesn’t get shut down on occasion ? Let’s not act like Emmanuel Sanders is a player who’s impossible to take out of the game. The sole difference might be the injury situation. Sanders could contribute a lot more if he’s healthy next season, while Brown could have injury issues. Sanders is a more versatile WR. You don't get to the reception and yardage totals Sanders has without being more of an all around WR IMO. Sanders has played in about 62% more games than Brown but has over 100% more receptions and 82% more receiving yards. So he's been far more productive on a per game basis. Sanders will also be able to fill in more equally to Beasley's role should Beasley become an injury risk. And even fill in for Diggs for a couple games to a degree. I think more versatility is what Beane is looking for on the roster. 8 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: Agholor will make 3 times as much for a reason. Please stop digging this hole. I really liked Agholor for the Bills. But yeah, Agholor is making much more because he's got far more tread left on his tires. 1
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 9 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Interesting Beane said they needed to get faster and they’ve done the opposite to this point..... I expect and hope for a burner at some point in the draft. I think there is a difference between straight line speed which Brown has and putting pressure on a team vertically vs. sideline to to sideline speed and putting pressure on a team horizontally. But really, if we are looking to add purely speed our best bet was probably always going to be the draft. So we'll see how important that is.
SoCal Deek Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: I think there is a difference between straight line speed which Brown has and putting pressure on a team vertically vs. sideline to to sideline speed and putting pressure on a team horizontally. But really, if we are looking to add purely speed our best bet was probably always going to be the draft. So we'll see how important that is. I know I’m in the minority on here but I’ve always felt that speed was a bit overrated. It’s rare that a WR just runs a go route and beats the defense over the top. It mostly comes down to play design and getting the WR that extra step by having the QB either freeze or look off the deep safety. Yes, I’m guessing speed is better than slow but it’s not the answer to the passing game’s ultimate success. Edited March 18, 2021 by SoCal Deek
RaoulDuke79 Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 Best of luck Smoke. Hopefully he can say healthy and get back into form.
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I know I’m in the minority on here but I’ve always felt that speed was a bit overrated. It’s rare that a WR just runs a go route and beats the defense over the top. It mostly comes down to play design and getting the WR that extra step by having the QB either freeze or look off the deep safety. Yes, I’m guessing speed is better than slow but it’s not the answer to the passing game’s ultimate success. There's definitely different types of speed. See Tyreek Hill vs. DK Metcalf.
SoCal Deek Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: There's definitely different types of speed. See Tyreek Hill vs. DK Metcalf. Agreed. So the key is in the design on the offense. My childhood favorite player was always Bullet Bob Hayes, literally the world’s fastest human. But as a WR he could only do so much. In today’s NFL it’s more about play design. Even the Chiefs have learned that’s it’s just as effective to have Hill run across the field, rather than a straight go route, and the completion percentage becomes close to a sure thing. 1
StHustle Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: Agholor will make 3 times as much for a reason. Please stop digging this hole. Overall career wise...John Brown crushes Agholor in every important statistical category. Brown has been around longer but I'm talking averages...not totals. Agholor put together one good season so far and now you're riding his jock strap. Let's see what happens in a new system. Both healthy, no knowledgeable football fan would rank Agholor higher than Brown unless you're simply judging last season which is ridiculous knowing Brown was hurt for the bulk of it. Again, average football fans would recognize and consider that.
Teddy KGB Posted March 18, 2021 Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, StHustle said: Overall career wise...John Brown crushes Agholor in every important statistical category. Brown has been around longer but I'm talking averages...not totals. Agholor put together one good season so far and now you're riding his jock strap. Let's see what happens in a new system. Both healthy, no knowledgeable football fan would rank Agholor higher than Brown unless you're simply judging last season which is ridiculous knowing Brown was hurt for the bulk of it. Again, average football fans would recognize and consider that. Okay you win. I’m an “average” football fan because you like the guy with worse stats and and the smaller contract Email the gm’s let them know they got it wrong Edited March 18, 2021 by Teddy KGB 1
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