NoHuddleKelly12 Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 So if both Brown and Sanders max out their deals, we're talking about the difference of about 1mill? In the grand scheme of things, not huge if we get what we hope from Sanders.
JGMcD2 Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I like Brown, but do you really think Brown is better than Sanders? Sanders' career is borderline elite. Sanders isn’t a flashy name... that’s the whole issue with all of this. He’s always been super productive but never really THE guy in an offense... so he’s never been super hyped up. Fans are just going to react like fans when they don’t see a big name they PERCEIVE as a stud because they put up big fantasy numbers. Most couldn’t tell you about their route running ability, ability to play multiple positions, leadership qualities, separation on routes, etc BUT they can tell you they picked Emmanuel Sanders up week 13 last year and he didn’t have a great fantasy week so HE IS TRASH! 3
Straight Hucklebuck Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 He’s a veteran that can help in a pinch. But he’s not a #2 anymore. 1
nucci Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 This shouldn't be that big of a deal. Sanders is a good player who will help team. I don't care about his salary. Beane seems to know how to manage the cap. 3
Straight Hucklebuck Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 19 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Sanders isn’t a flashy name... that’s the whole issue with all of this. He’s always been super productive but never really THE guy in an offense... so he’s never been super hyped up. Fans are just going to react like fans when they don’t see a big name they PERCEIVE as a stud because they put up big fantasy numbers. Most couldn’t tell you about their route running ability, ability to play multiple positions, leadership qualities, separation on routes, etc BUT they can tell you they picked Emmanuel Sanders up week 13 last year and he didn’t have a great fantasy week so HE IS TRASH! I don’t agree with this. We have eyes, a TV and computer. He’s getting older, and he’s here to compete for a spot as evidenced by his one year deal. Route running? All WRs on this team can run routes, it’s not unique to only Emmanuel Sanders. He can help in a pinch, but he doesn’t move the needle at all. Curtis Samuel would have raised an eyebrow because of his speed, youth, and rush ability. 1
JGMcD2 Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 16 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: I don’t agree with this. We have eyes, a TV and computer. He’s getting older, and he’s here to compete for a spot as evidenced by his one year deal. Route running? All WRs on this team can run routes, it’s not unique to only Emmanuel Sanders. He can help in a pinch, but he doesn’t move the needle at all. Curtis Samuel would have raised an eyebrow because of his speed, youth, and rush ability. Yeah we do all have eyes, a TV and a computer.. and you can scroll through this thread and look at all of the people who fail to use any of those tools and just throw out extraneous claims without anything to back them up. Just because you have these tools doesn’t mean you actually know how to use them and what you’re looking for... You obviously haven’t used your eyes, TV or computer to find out that Sanders is an outstanding route runner. Of course route running isn’t unique to WR... that’s just way off base with what I said initially. Running very good routes IS unique to certain WR. Is Diggs not a better route runner than other WR in football because all other WR run routes too? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say... other than poke a hole in something while simultaneously failing to understand what you’re poking a hole in. You’re entitled to your opinion that he doesn’t move the needle because of his age (seems to be your main point)... I’m not disputing that. Samuel as an option for us flew out the window after Daryl Williams was signed... so I don’t understand why people keep bringing him up like we chose Sanders over Samuel. Of course Curtis Samuel is a good player... I never said anything to the contrary... but because he’s younger (doesn’t actually matter... people just think it makes you better because they’re less familiar... perceived upside, etc.) many would be much more excited for him than they are Sanders because Samuel was a buzz name this off-season. Samuel is the new shiny toy and Sanders has been around awhile so he’s less exciting. It doesn’t make him any less valuable... he’s outperformed Samuel since Samuel entered the league. Does Samuel have more upside... yeah... we’re not going for upside it’s a 1 year deal.... we’re focused on production right now and nothing suggests that Samuel as the #2/3 option here is a better fit for us than Sanders... other than the fact he’s younger... 1 2 1
ngbills Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 Breshad Perriman on a minimum deal. Your speed guy. A ton of other WR's that could be had on a year prove it deal if not getting what they hoped for - Galloway, Fuller, Samuel, JuJu, Diggs/Sanders/Beasley/Davis (Kumerow, Hodgins, Gentry, Williams fighting for a spot or two).
1st Ammendment NoMas Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 The thing they touted about Sanders just as much as his "route" running is his ability to get separation. If there is one thing we saw this year that stood out, it was Josh's ability to throw into a tight window where there was some separation. As much as Brown contributed, he was not the kind of guy to beat physical corners and get that window. Diggs did. Beasley did and Gabe managed to use his body to toe tap or reach over defenders to make contested catches. Brown did none of this. You had to scheme plays for him to get open. With Josh learning to read defenses better, scramble and make throws to his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options, Sanders plays right into the offense perfectly. This is why I think he's an upgrade, even though he is aging. He still caught 60+ for NO and has played with mostly crap QB's. 1 1
ngbills Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, BillsRdue said: The thing they touted about Sanders just as much as his "route" running is his ability to get separation. If there is one thing we saw this year that stood out, it was Josh's ability to throw into a tight window where there was some separation. As much as Brown contributed, he was not the kind of guy to beat physical corners and get that window. Diggs did. Beasley did and Gabe managed to use his body to toe tap or reach over defenders to make contested catches. Brown did none of this. You had to scheme plays for him to get open. With Josh learning to read defenses better, scramble and make throws to his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options, Sanders plays right into the offense perfectly. This is why I think he's an upgrade, even though he is aging. He still caught 60+ for NO and has played with mostly crap QB's. I disagree with this. I dont think Sanders excels at the scramble and improvise game. Or at being a 3-4th option get open guy. I have always viewed him more as a timing route guy that you throw the ball to a spot and he will be there. Or that you hit on the quick slant. That has been his game the last few years at least. I see him being utilized more on the designed plays to get the ball out quick. Think first drives of the game or on short yardage passing plays.
Logic Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) I posted this in the John Brown thread, and decided to paste it here as well: I think it was @Hapless Bills Fan that said it here first, and then I saw Erik Turner and Greg Tompsett of Cover 1 talk about it on Twitter: John Brown too easily got erased by aggressive press coverage last year. He too easily got erased from whole games, in general. Seeing now how much Brown signed for, compared to how much Sanders cost, and then keeping in mind that the Bills didn't even ask Brown to take a pay cut (according to Brown)...it just seems like the Bills view Sanders as un upgrade. In particular, as Turner pointed out: Teams started to play two-high safety zone coverage shells more and more as the year went on to force the Bills to dink and dunk their way own field. It took the offense some time to adjust, and Brown was not particularly helpful in these situations. By contrast, Sanders is more physical, a better route runner in general, and can work underneath more effectively. So while they gave up the speed and familiarity of Brown, they gained the physicality and route running of Sanders and, thus, theoretically gained the ability to more effectively operate against the two-high shells and/or to force defenses back into playing man-to-man. TL;DR: Beane and McDermott seem to feel that Sanders is simply better than Brown, or at least more effective at doing what they need from a WR2. They replaced Brown with Sanders as a means of more effectively operating in the short and intermediate game, so that when teams go to soft zones, the Bills can more effectively counter. Edited March 17, 2021 by Logic 4
Clyde Smith Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 51 minutes ago, ngbills said: Breshad Perriman on a minimum deal. Your speed guy. A ton of other WR's that could be had on a year prove it deal if not getting what they hoped for - Galloway, Fuller, Samuel, JuJu, Diggs/Sanders/Beasley/Davis (Kumerow, Hodgins, Gentry, Williams fighting for a spot or two). You forgot Stills...Don't sleep, especially with Allen throwing.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Clyde Smith said: You forgot Stills...Don't sleep, especially with Allen throwing. Unclear on your meaning....Stills is not on the Bills team, do you feel we should pursue/sign him? And while we're at it, general question to all here: what about Lil' Dirty (McKenzie)? He's fast He's shifty He'll do "whatever" to help the team from playing scout-team QB to pinch-hitting at DB He apparently talks crap to everyone at a record-setting pace - to the point where he hesitated when asked about how he and Josh Allen got along and said they had a "90% love, 10% hate, because I talk crap" relationship He has some of the same problems that Logic discussed above, in being able to be neutralized by some of the coverage schemes teams used and by physical man coverage
Clyde Smith Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: Unclear on your meaning....Stills is not on the Bills team, do you feel we should pursue/sign him? Thanks for the clarity. I thought he was STILL on the team lol 1
Bakin Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 My guess is he’s a good process guy...and he’s still got skills...and we will draft a speedster. I still like McKenzie ... kid can ball. He’s only 25 and runs a 4.42. T THE P!
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 36 minutes ago, BillsRdue said: The thing they touted about Sanders just as much as his "route" running is his ability to get separation. If there is one thing we saw this year that stood out, it was Josh's ability to throw into a tight window where there was some separation. As much as Brown contributed, he was not the kind of guy to beat physical corners and get that window. Diggs did. Beasley did and Gabe managed to use his body to toe tap or reach over defenders to make contested catches. Brown did none of this. You had to scheme plays for him to get open. With Josh learning to read defenses better, scramble and make throws to his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options, Sanders plays right into the offense perfectly. This is why I think he's an upgrade, even though he is aging. He still caught 60+ for NO and has played with mostly crap QB's. To this...IMO it should not be overlooked that Sanders was a teammate of Beasley at SMU. Daboll, apparently at Beasley's urging, started incorporating some of the June Jones/SMU/Mouse Davis secondary route concepts in 2019 and more last year. Which have been effective, but teams have been bracketing Beasley and shutting these down. Brown is a skilled route runner, but had made several references to the complexity of the playbook, to rookie Gabe Davis "helping us with (the playbook)" - I don't think a playbook where the WR are expected to read the DB's body language and run one of several route options while using their own body language to signal the QB what they're gonna do, was playing to his core strengths as a WR. IIRC there were several evident route miscommunications with Allen during the year. I think those plays like an otter sliding into water for Sanders. Not only can he swim well, he loves that stuff. Signing Sanders is giving Daboll the chance to be chortling "yeah, Suckas, now we got two of 'em AND you gotta cover Diggs. Oh, and Davis." 4 2 1
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 23 minutes ago, Logic said: I posted this in the John Brown thread, and decided to paste it here as well: I think it was @Hapless Bills Fan that said it here first, and then I saw Erik Turner and Greg Tompsett of Cover 1 talk about it on Twitter: John Brown too easily got erased by aggressive press coverage last year. He too easily got erased from whole games, in general. Seeing now how much Brown signed for, compared to how much Sanders cost, and then keeping in mind that the Bills didn't even ask Brown to take a pay cut (according to Brown)...it just seems like the Bills view Sanders as un upgrade. In particular, as Turner pointed out: Teams started to play two-high safety zone coverage shells more and more as the year went on to force the Bills to dink and dunk their way own field. It took the offense some time to adjust, and Brown was not particularly helpful in these situations. By contrast, Sanders is more physical, a better route runner in general, and can work underneath more effectively. So while they gave up the speed and familiarity of Brown, they gained the physicality and route running of Sanders and, thus, theoretically gained the ability to more effectively operate against the two-high shells and/or to force defenses back into playing man-to-man. TL;DR: Beane and McDermott seem to feel that Sanders is simply better than Brown, or at least more effective at doing what they need from a WR2. They replaced Brown with Sanders as a means of more effectively operating in the short and intermediate game, so that when teams go to soft zones, the Bills can more effectively counter. Good post. Certainly more enlightening than the usual “he’s old he sucks” drivel 1 1
JGMcD2 Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Well would you look at that... another stat where Emmanuel Sanders is better than Curtis Samuel... Amazing what happens when you use your eyes, a TV and computer. 1 1 1
teef Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, FFadpecr said: 2021 NFL League MVP and Repeat FF Overall QB1 Josh Allen OWNS the Intermediate area of the field (8-20 yard range). Josh Allen is the #1 most accurate passer in that part of the field, and he gives his WRs all kinds of YAC opportunities because of his arm velocity. He now has 3 crisp route-running separators in that 8-20 yard range. There is no possible way to stop JA17 in 2021. 55-60 Total Touchdowns in a real possibility. how do you feel about him compared to watson? 1
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