Cowboys and Dak reach deal

[Doc Brown]

17 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah its called a rebuild, so I dont care about years 1 and 2.  They have a new staff and some impressive young players in place on both sides of the ball with a good cap.  I would much rather be the team they are right now then the team they would be if they kept Kirk Cousins and paid him that money.  

The same year the Skins released Cousins they signed Alex Smith to a 4 year 94 million dollar deal (71 million guaranteed) and his cap hit went up each season he was there.  They also gave up a 3rd round pick for him.  They weren't in rebuild mode at the time.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah its called a rebuild, so I dont care about years 1 and 2.  They have a new staff and some impressive young players in place on both sides of the ball with a good cap.  I would much rather be the team they are right now then the team they would be if they kept Kirk Cousins and paid him that money.  

They have had Alex Smith’s corpse on the roster with a massive cap hit.....

56 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

The same year the Skins released Cousins they signed Alex Smith to a 4 year 94 million dollar deal (71 million guaranteed) and his cap hit went up each season he was there.  They also gave up a 3rd round pick for him.  They weren't in rebuild mode at the time.

Breaking, losing 13 games and everyone getting fired is just a rebuild planned out by all the dudes who got fired.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Breaking, losing 13 games and everyone getting fired is just a rebuild planned out by all the dudes who got fired.

Maybe I misread his post but I interpreted it as the Skins dumped Cousins because they didn't want to have his salary and start a rebuild.  That's just not true given the money they spent on Alex Smith that same off-season who wasn't that far off from Cousins as far as average annual salary goes.  

[GunnerBill]

I think the "I'd rather have cap space and some young players and consecutive losing seasons than pay a Quarterback" is kind of the way Bills fans have been conditioned to think by all the losing. Cap space, and top 10 picks and comp selections and a new regime all the things that allow fans to hope that there are better times just around the corner. The Bills did little but sell hope for 15 years. 

 

But you have to try to win. That is the NFL. If all but the 6 teams with top end Quarterbacks was more interested in sucking the league would be barely watchable the way the Bills were barely watchable for 15 years. That isn't to say there doesn't come a time for each franchise to rip it down and rebuild but even if that was Washington's plan when they let Cousins go (it wasn't and they tried to keep him remember, they just made a horlicks of the whole situation) if 4 years later you still don't have your answer at Quarterback then that is not a success. 

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think the "I'd rather have cap space and some young players and consecutive losing seasons than pay a Quarterback" is kind of the way Bills fans have been conditioned to think by all the losing. Cap space, and top 10 picks and comp selections and a new regime all the things that allow fans to hope that there are better times just around the corner. The Bills did little but sell hope for 15 years. 

 

But you have to try to win. That is the NFL. If all but the 6 teams with top end Quarterbacks was more interested in sucking the league would be barely watchable the way the Bills were barely watchable for 15 years. That isn't to say there doesn't come a time for each franchise to rip it down and rebuild but even if that was Washington's plan when they let Cousins go (it wasn't and they tried to keep him remember, they just made a horlicks of the whole situation) if 4 years later you still don't have your answer at Quarterback then that is not a success. 

There’s also this weird “patient” view when it comes to other franchises.

 

Like the WFT is just slowly rising up after letting Kirk walk, instead of firing their GM, firing their HC a year later, drafting a first round QB and cutting him. 
 

GM’s and HC’s don’t get 10 years. They aren’t taking this weird long view.

[C.Biscuit97]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

For who? Certainly not the previous FO and HC who thought letting Cousins walk was a “smart” move.

Cousins is nit worth what he is getting paid. 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Cousins is nit worth what he is getting paid. 

This is what you and @Alphadawg7 don’t seem to understand. Being overpaid does not mean “we are better off letting you walk.”

 

Half of the players in the NFL are overpaid. 10 years ago, we “overpaid” for Mario Williams. He was our best defensive player and an All-Pro. That’s Free Agency. That’s the NFL.

 

The NFL has a fixed number of wins possible and every year, 31 other teams are trying to steal yours. If you let a talented player walk at the most important position, and you fail to adequately replace him 4 years later, with multiple losing seasons, YOU FAILED.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

This is what you and @Alphadawg7 don’t seem to understand. Being overpaid does not mean “we are better off letting you walk.”

 

Half of the players in the NFL are overpaid. 10 years ago, we “overpaid” for Mario Williams. He was our best defensive player and an All-Pro. That’s Free Agency. That’s the NFL.

 

The NFL has a fixed number of wins possible and every year, 31 other teams are trying to steal yours. If you let a talented player walk at the most important position, and you fail to adequately replace him 4 years later, with multiple losing seasons, YOU FAILED.

 

Yea the Quarterback market sucks for teams with vet guys who are in that 7-15 range. Because it doesn't adequately reflect the difference in value between a top 6 Quarterback - and there is a clear top 6 in the league right now - and a guy in that next "above average NFL starter to very good NFL QB" range. You only have to pay $2m more than Kirk is getting and you could have Russell Wilson!! But there is no alternative. The alternative is screaming stop the world I want to get off while spinning your tires with one legged Alex Smith and Colt McCoy drafting Dwayne Haskins in a pretty awful Quarterback class. 

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Maybe I misread his post but I interpreted it as the Skins dumped Cousins because they didn't want to have his salary and start a rebuild.  That's just not true given the money they spent on Alex Smith that same off-season who wasn't that far off from Cousins as far as average annual salary goes.  

Smith was short term compared to what Cousins wanted and a guy to place hold while they found a young QB to groom.  And clearly they felt he was a better option than paying what Cousins wanted which was top of the market money.  

Edited March 10, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[CincyBillsFan]

14 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

They're a QB away.  Tall order, I know, but that roster is stacked on both sides of the ball!

 

The Bills were a QB away for over 20 years.  That tall order can be as high as Mount Everest.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

This is what you and @Alphadawg7 don’t seem to understand. Being overpaid does not mean “we are better off letting you walk.”

 

Half of the players in the NFL are overpaid. 10 years ago, we “overpaid” for Mario Williams. He was our best defensive player and an All-Pro. That’s Free Agency. That’s the NFL.

 

The NFL has a fixed number of wins possible and every year, 31 other teams are trying to steal yours. If you let a talented player walk at the most important position, and you fail to adequately replace him 4 years later, with multiple losing seasons, YOU FAILED.

I get what you are saying except what you are proposing has not ever worked.  Show me one Super Bowl champion who had a mid tier QB who was one of the few highest paid QBs in the NFL at the time of the championship.  
 

I mean, maybe I am missing one, but I don’t think it’s ever happened and looking at the list of last super bowl winners the last 30 years I can’t see any that jump out to me.  Yes, plenty of mid tier QBs have won Super Bowls, even bottom third guys like Dilfer.  But  none of them had top paid elite player contracts like what Cousins was seeking, like what guys such as Kap, Tannehill (in Miami), Cousins, etc got at the time they received them.  And those guys won a SB because they have very talented rosters all around them with high priced elite players at many other positions because they did not have a huge QB contract choking their cap.
 

I play to win Super Bowls, that’s is the one and only objective of Football.  I am not remotely interested in fielding a moderately competitive team for 10 years.  
 

So for me, I would rather rebuild which HAS led to several super bowl titles then dump huge amounts of money into a QB that’s not worth that money and will prevent the team from putting a Super Bowl roster together due to the cap issues of paying a player who can’t carry you through the inevitable roster deficiencies it creates.  
 

But again, that’s just my philosophy because I hate losing so much and am super competitive.  And the only thing that counts as winning for me is legitimately competing for championships...not just winning records in the regular season.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think the "I'd rather have cap space and some young players and consecutive losing seasons than pay a Quarterback" is kind of the way Bills fans have been conditioned to think by all the losing. Cap space, and top 10 picks and comp selections and a new regime all the things that allow fans to hope that there are better times just around the corner. The Bills did little but sell hope for 15 years. 

 

But you have to try to win. That is the NFL. If all but the 6 teams with top end Quarterbacks was more interested in sucking the league would be barely watchable the way the Bills were barely watchable for 15 years. That isn't to say there doesn't come a time for each franchise to rip it down and rebuild but even if that was Washington's plan when they let Cousins go (it wasn't and they tried to keep him remember, they just made a horlicks of the whole situation) if 4 years later you still don't have your answer at Quarterback then that is not a success. 

Actually you are wrong, we rarely had a top pick in the draft.  We suffered through many 6-8 win seasons always missing in being in the right slot to get that elite talent or QB in the draft.  And the occasional times we did have good draft slots we did not have a competent staff and front office to utilize those picks.

 

The Bills are an exact example of why it’s dumb to keep playing for mediocrity. It was not until Beane came in and said tear it all down, get rid of everyone, clear the cap out and get into position anyway we can to get a QB.  
 

McD turned out to be a great coach who could get the most out of his roster and shocked everyone making the playoffs right away.  But Beane still had traded lots of other of what at the time was considered as our better players to get the draft ammo to instead move up to get our guy since our record didn’t get us there.  
 

But it was not until a real GM came in and committed to fully clearing the whole roster and cap out before we truly turned the corner.  It of course takes a talented front office and staff to also successfully find the right pieces after that, but none of it happens if we didn’t have Beane start clearing it all out where 3 years later there to today there isn’t a single player still on the roster from the past regime.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[BuffaloBill]

On 3/8/2021 at 6:55 PM, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Can not wait to see the details of the extension. Could have implications on Allen negotiations.

 

 

My first thought exactly

[Chandler#81]

[GoBills808]

Didn't WFT just win the division and make the playoffs?

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Actually you are wrong, we rarely had a top pick in the draft.  We suffered through many 6-8 win seasons always missing in being in the right slot to get that elite talent or QB in the draft.  And the occasional times we did have good draft slots we did not have a competent staff and front office to utilize those picks.

 

The Bills are an exact example of why it’s dumb to keep playing for mediocrity. It was not until Beane came in and said tear it all down, get rid of everyone, clear the cap out and get into position anyway we can to get a QB.  
 

McD turned out to be a great coach who could get the most out of his roster and shocked everyone making the playoffs right away.  But Beane still had traded lots of other of what at the time was considered as our better players to get the draft ammo to instead move up to get our guy since our record didn’t get us there.  
 

But it was not until a real GM came in and committed to fully clearing the whole roster and cap out before we truly turned the corner.  It of course takes a talented front office and staff to also successfully find the right pieces after that, but none of it happens if we didn’t have Beane start clearing it all out where 3 years later there to today there isn’t a single player still on the roster from the past regime.

 

Agreed, the Bills didn't bottom out but we are not talking about teams spinning their wheels at 6-10 we are talking about teams who are having double digit win seasons and making the playoffs. In the drought the Bills only actually got to 8 wins three times: 2004 (9-7); 2014 (9-7); 2015 (8-8). We rarely had top 3 picks but we picked between 8th and 12th plenty. If your argument is a team like Dallas, who before their QB snapped his ankle in half had behind that QB had three winning seasons and one 8-8, should tear it down to chase an elite QB in the draft that isn't comparable to where the Bills were at all. Dallas's roster is not without its faults but it really isn't a tear down roster, especially when they already have a top 10 QB although not an elite guy. If every team who were there tried to rebuild the league would be unwatchable because you'd have over half in rebuild mode at any one time. Tear it down, rebuild, and try to snag a top 5 type QB is not the only way to win in the NFL. And let's remember the team who did the ultimate tear down - Cleveland - still ended up with Baker... who is at best in the Dak tier not the elite tier. So what if you tear it all down and end up back in the same place? Tear it down again? That isn't the league and if it was it would be a whole darn lot less successful as a product. The Bills did a great job, no question. But every situation is different. There is no "one way to win" in the NFL. 

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I play to win Super Bowls, that’s is the one and only objective of Football.  I am not remotely interested in fielding a moderately competitive team for 10 years.  

 

So for me, I would rather rebuild which HAS led to several super bowl titles then dump huge amounts of money into a QB that’s not worth that money and will prevent the team from putting a Super Bowl roster together due to the cap issues of paying a player who can’t carry you through the inevitable roster deficiencies it creates.  
 

But again, that’s just my philosophy because I hate losing so much and am super competitive.  And the only thing that counts as winning for me is legitimately competing for championships...not just winning records in the regular season.

 

I get the "if this guy can't win me a Superbowl then I'm starting over" but I think it is slightly revisionist. Because back in 2017 you didn't want to take a Quarterback because you thought we could make the playoffs with Tyrod. I think you are seeing it through the lens of where the Bills are now. 

 

As for who was the expensive non-elite guy who won a Superbowl? Eli Manning. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agreed, the Bills didn't bottom out but we are not talking about teams spinning their wheels at 6-10 we are talking about teams who are having double digit win seasons and making the playoffs. In the drought the Bills only actually got to 8 wins three times: 2004 (9-7); 2014 (9-7); 2015 (8-8). We rarely had top 3 picks but we picked between 8th and 12th plenty. If your argument is a team like Dallas, who before their QB snapped his ankle in half had behind that QB had three winning seasons and one 8-8, should tear it down to chase an elite QB in the draft that isn't comparable to where the Bills were at all. Dallas's roster is not without its faults but it really isn't a tear down roster, especially when they already have a top 10 QB although not an elite guy. If every team who were there tried to rebuild the league would be unwatchable because you'd have over half in rebuild mode at any one time. Tear it down, rebuild, and try to snag a top 5 type QB is not the only way to win in the NFL. And let's remember the team who did the ultimate tear down - Cleveland - still ended up with Baker... who is at best in the Dak tier not the elite tier. So what if you tear it all down and end up back in the same place? Tear it down again? That isn't the league and if it was it would be a whole darn lot less successful as a product. The Bills did a great job, no question. But every situation is different. There is no "one way to win" in the NFL. 

Agree there is no one way to win in the NFL as there are many paths and roster makeups that led to championships...

 

But...there is one way to almost guarantee you will never win one because it’s still never happened, and that is to over pay mid tier QB as one of highest players in NFL history.  Literally it’s never ever worked out for any team ever.
 

And most my comments you responded to where pertaining to Cousins whose definitely not as good as Dak.   Dak is closer to that top tier than the Cousins of the world and most my dialogue was in regards to Cousins convo.  My biggest issue in Dallas isnt even Daks contract, it the gross contracts of Cooper and Zeke to go with it.  

 

To answer your Baker question, he was much improved in 2020, good year for the kid for sure.  But if Cleveland has to now pay Baker top 3 money to keep him, I’ll say it right now, he isn’t worth it (at least not yet).  
 

Nothing against Baker, I loved him coming out of college and he’s a good young player.  But I’m not paying him say $42M a year for example after throwing 3500 yards and 27 TDs as more of a game manager role.
 

That offense is anchored by a dominant OL and run game more than it is passing.  His job is more a game manager than it is being the focal

point of the offense.  For me, as improved as Baker was, he hasn’t been on Daks level of productivity yet and isn’t in the same compensation category yet as Dak, or other top paid QBs.  Of course he can still get there, but just saying he’s not at that level yet and would not pay him as if he was.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Agree there is no one way to win in the NFL as there are many paths and roster makeups that led to championships...

 

But...there is one way to almost guarantee you will never win one because it’s still never happened, and that is to over pay mid tier QB as one of highest players in NFL history.  Literally it’s never ever worked out for any team ever.
 

 

So I wouldn't argue Eli was Kirk Cousins when he won the Superbowl in 2007 or 2011, but he was a 7-12 QB - ie. closer to Dak - who got hot in the post season, not a 1-6 QB. He counted for 10% of the cap on the 07 Giants and 11.5% of the cap on the 11 Giants. Dak (even on the covid reduced cap) is 12% of the Cowboys cap in 2021 and if it was the actual expected cap for this year he'd be 10%. 

 

On your Baker point - so what would you do if you were Cleveland? Let's say Baker plays out his rookie deal including 5th year option and they go 10-6; 10-6 or 11-5; 9-7 supported by what we both agree is a good roster. You can't tear that roster down to try and get another QB in the draft and then have to go through 3 years of building it back up again and then rinse and repeat. That is a pretty bad plan. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by GunnerBill

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I wouldn't argue Eli was Kirk Cousins when he won the Superbowl in 2007 or 2011, but he was a 7-12 QB - ie. closer to Dak - who got hot in the post season, not a 1-6 QB. He counted for 10% of the cap on the 07 Giants and 11.5% of the cap on the 11 Giants. Dak (even on the covid reduced cap) is 12% of the Cowboys cap in 2021 and if it was the actual expected cap for this year he'd be 10%. 

 

On your Baker point - so what would you do if you were Cleveland? Let's say Baker plays out his rookie deal including 5th year option and they go 10-6; 10-6 or 11-5; 9-7 supported by what we both agree is a good roster. You can't tear that roster down to try and get another QB in the draft and then have to go through 3 years of building it back up again and then rinse and repeat. That is a pretty bad plan. 

I thought Mayfield played pretty well this year, actually, and I just have a feeling that he's going to last a long time in the league and always be at least pretty good. Given Cleveland's decades-long QB purgatory, "pretty good" is something they should grab and hold onto for dear life and never let it go. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

I thought Mayfield played pretty well this year, actually, and I just have a feeling that he's going to last a long time in the league and always be at least pretty good. Given Cleveland's decades-long QB purgatory, "pretty good" is something they should grab and hold onto for dear life and never let it go. 

 

Exaclty Cleveland, Chicago and Buffalo are the ultimate examples of it isn't as easy as just find a good quarterback! They don't grow on trees. It sucks for the teams with a 7-15 in the league guy that it costs almost as much as the top 6 guys despite the difference in play being more stark than that but it is what it is. That is the market. You either accept it or you accept lots and lots of losing seasons hoping eventually you hit the jackpot.