FireChans Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 50 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: But true none the less, if you lose the game you are the loser, regardless of any individual performance by a member of the losing team. What kind of sissy mind set do some folk employ to deflect that the team that lost are the losers, from the water boy to the owner ya lost, that makes you the loser. What’s worse is your pretension that it’s profound.
Doc Brown Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 30 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: We don't at all. We may pay for tickets, buy merchandise, pay for TV viewing....but we have no say in who gets what. Love or hate Dak/Jones, there's no effect. But besides that....
Mr. WEO Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 14 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: But besides that.... where in that list did you find “we decide which players make what salary”?
Don Otreply Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Be honest. You were the last guy to play on the team but celebrated like you were the star when you won. 😉 Would take Watson with number 1 defense like Wilson had early in his career? I think Wilson and Watson are top 5 qbs with Dak top 10. But there are so many factors that go into winning in the nfl. I can’t believe some fans don’t understand this. It works in either direction 😁👍 2 hours ago, FireChans said: What’s worse is your pretension that it’s profound. Wow, “profound” and “pretension” that’s rather pretentiously profound, 😂
dave mcbride Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) On 3/5/2021 at 7:23 PM, Rico said: Well, I'm a Josh Allen homer and I never liked Sanchez, so I would have to say no. Nevertheless, neither Dak at 1-2 nor Deshaun at 1-2 have experienced as much bottom-line success in the playoffs as either of them TO DATE. Do they have the potential to do better? Sure. Have they shown it yet? No. This is where you lose me: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201701150dal.htm. GB won that game because of a ridiculous catch late in the game. Prescott was phenomenal in that game and did what he had to do to. This is one of those examples is where qb won-loss records loses its shine; look at what actually happened before opining. It’s like Pat Mahomes 5-7 “won-loss” record in his final year in college: his team lost two games in which his offense put up 55 points and 3 other games where they put up 44, 38, and 37 points. That team record has literally nothing to do with the qb. Edited March 7, 2021 by dave mcbride
Rico Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: This is where you lose me: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201701150dal.htm. GB won that game because of a ridiculous catch late in the game. Prescott was phenomenal in that game and did what he had to do to. This is one of those examples is where qb won-loss records loses its shine; look at what actually happened before opining. It’s like Pat Mahomes 5-7 “won-loss” record in his final year in college: his team lost two games in which his offense put up 55 points and 3 other games where they put up 44, 38, and 37 points. That team record has literally nothing to do with the qb. There are a lot of numbers next to Dak’s name in that link, mostly good. Also 1 interception and 2 sacks. Were any of those 3 plays critical mistakes on his part that made a big difference in a close game? Can’t tell by looking at that link, not without doing a deeper dive, preferably by watching the game. What I do know by looking at that link is that he was the QB and his team did not win the game. L.
Norcalbillsfan Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 I think its the same topic as Allen. Is Dak mahomes? No. Is josh mahomes? Close but not yet. Getting close to mahomes money isn't graded by if your on mahomes level anymore. The nfl is a passing league, you don't win without an elite passer. Contracts aren't based on if your as good as mahomes, its "where would you be without me" Can the cowboys find another Dak in FA? No. Can you get Dak production in the draft if your not top 5 pick? Rarely. Imagine if you don't pay Allen the contract he wants and he walks. Where do you even start? Hope for that once in a decade watson trade? Dak will get paid by someone and so will josh.
Doc Brown Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: where in that list did you find “we decide which players make what salary”? Next to the definition of “indirectly”
Chicken Boo Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 They should trade him for Russ. On 3/4/2021 at 2:54 PM, GunnerBill said: The Cowboys could have had him at $32m per two years ago and blew it. He isn't worth the 2nd highest contract but he is a top 10 Quarterback and he has a lot of leverage because the Cowboys have ballsed this up. Same thing happened with Cousins in Washington.
Mike in Horseheads Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 Dak did make it to Pro Bowls and thats why Tyrod was great. I read it here.
JaCrispy Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Dak did make it to Pro Bowls and thats why Tyrod was great. I read it here. Go with God, Crispy...😎🍻 1
Nihilarian Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 Some guys play and put up big stats and yet don't win in big games...it isn't in their DNA to have that determination to win a game no matter what. Dak doesn't look like he has that IMO. With that offense he has been in with Zek, Cooper, Beasley and one of the very best offensive lines in the league. Prescott, Elliott, Cooper all-pros. 2014 13-3 and lost in the divisional round. 2018 10-6 beat the Seahawks in a WC round and lost to the Rams in divisional round. One playoff win in five years and the Cowboys used to have a top defense too. He isn't worth Mahomes money. I'd trade him for Wilson or better yet trade Dak away and move up in the draft for a QB.
GunnerBill Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Chicken Boo said: They should trade him for Russ. Same thing happened with Cousins in Washington. Exactly. I think Dak is better than Kirk but even if you just take the view he is a younger Kirk Cousins then since Kirk left Washington the Football Team are 24-40 with 4 consecutive losing seasons. If we start from the premise that in order to win you have to make the playoffs you are better with Quarterbacks who consistently lead teams that make them than those who don't. Here are Washington four years later and with no plan at QB. 55 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: Some guys play and put up big stats and yet don't win in big games...it isn't in their DNA to have that determination to win a game no matter what. Dak doesn't look like he has that IMO. With that offense he has been in with Zek, Cooper, Beasley and one of the very best offensive lines in the league. Prescott, Elliott, Cooper all-pros. 2014 13-3 and lost in the divisional round. 2018 10-6 beat the Seahawks in a WC round and lost to the Rams in divisional round. One playoff win in five years and the Cowboys used to have a top defense too. He isn't worth Mahomes money. I'd trade him for Wilson or better yet trade Dak away and move up in the draft for a QB. Four seasons. He was 2-3 in his 5th playing with a defense that at the time was on pace to be historically bad and nick some of Rob Ryan's Saints records. If Dak had stayed healthy and played with the Dallas D that stabilised to a sort of just below average one down the stretch the Cowboys would have won that awful division I am all but certain. But regardless I think we should write last year off. Four seasons he has won two divisions and a playoff game. That is not at all bad for a first four years in the league. He doesn't deserve Mahomes money, agreed. But the Cowboys have ballsed it up and he has all the leverage.
Thurman#1 Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, Rico said: And that's why you can't really use stats when evaluating QBs. For instance, take a look at the numbers from one of Dan Marino's playoff losses with Miami to the Bills during the SB years. If you did not see those games, you would think he played pretty well. Only he looked like a deer in headlights until the game was out of hand, then put up all his yards/points in garbage time. W-L record isn't perfect, but it is absolute. You either got it done, or you did not. It is indeed absolute. But wins are absolutely NOT a QB stat. They are a team stat. They tell you how well the team played. QB effectiveness can simply not be judged based on whether the field goal kicker misses a 30 yard kick or whether an LB on his team makes a brilliant INT and runs it back for a pick six. That's the kind of thing that has huge impact on wins and losses. And says absolutely nothing about how good your QB is. And as for Marino's playoff losses to the Bills, which one had stats that would make you think he played pretty well? The loss in 1990? 23 for 49, 46.94% completions, 323 yards, 3 TDs, 2 INTs, passer rating of 72.1 The loss in 1992? 22 for 45, 48.89% completions, 268 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, passer rating of 56.5 Those were the only two times during the Bills Super Bowl years that they played Miami in the playoffs. Yeah, QB stats were quite a bit lower in those days, but even by those standards, neither of those Marino games looks any better in the stats than he actually played. Marino played the Bills in the playoffs two more times. And had one solidly decent statistical game out of all four. The loss in 1995? 33 for 64, 51.56% completions, 422 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, passer rating of 63.4 The win in 1998? 23 for 34, 67.65% completions, 235 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, passer rating of 84.8 Edited March 7, 2021 by Thurman#1 2 1
GunnerBill Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: It is indeed absolute. And life is not absolute. There is nuance all around us. Football is no different.
Thurman#1 Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: And life is not absolute. There is nuance all around us. Football is no different. Win - loss record is not absolute as far as telling how successful a football team is? I guess I stand corrected. I'm with you in nuance being all around us. I'd argue there are some absolutes too. Absolute zero, for instance. Pi. Granted, these can be disproven with one experiment according to scientific method principles, but they are effectively absolutes. There are more. And while it's not an absolute scientific fact that, for example, Tom Brady is better than JP Losman, it'd be difficult to find anyone who thinks otherwise. Edited March 7, 2021 by Thurman#1 1
GunnerBill Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 53 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Win - loss record is not absolute as far as telling how successful a football team is? I guess I stand corrected. I'm with you in nuance being all around us. I'd argue there are some absolutes too. Absolute zero, for instance. Pi. Granted, these can be disproven with one experiment according to scientific method principles, but they are effectively absolutes. There are more. And while it's not an absolute scientific fact that, for example, Tom Brady is better than JP Losman, it'd be difficult to find anyone who thinks otherwise. No it is. I was agreeing with you. W-L is absolute. Absolutes are not generally great ways of evaluating things in life or football.
Rico Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: It is indeed absolute. But wins are absolutely NOT a QB stat. They are a team stat. They tell you how well the team played. QB effectiveness can simply not be judged based on whether the field goal kicker misses a 30 yard kick or whether an LB on his team makes a brilliant INT and runs it back for a pick six. That's the kind of thing that has huge impact on wins and losses. And says absolutely nothing about how good your QB is. And as for Marino's playoff losses to the Bills, which one had stats that would make you think he played pretty well? The loss in 1990? 23 for 49, 46.94% completions, 323 yards, 3 TDs, 2 INTs, passer rating of 72.1 The loss in 1992? 22 for 45, 48.89% completions, 268 yards, 1 TD, 2 INTs, passer rating of 56.5 Those were the only two times during the Bills Super Bowl years that they played Miami in the playoffs. Yeah, QB stats were quite a bit lower in those days, but even by those standards, neither of those Marino games looks any better in the stats than he actually played. Marino played the Bills in the playoffs two more times. And had one solidly decent statistical game out of all four. The loss in 1995? 33 for 64, 51.56% completions, 422 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, passer rating of 63.4 The win in 1998? 23 for 34, 67.65% completions, 235 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, passer rating of 84.8 Marino’s numbers looked dramatically worse going into the 4th quarter of those losses. How much worse? I would have to dig in deeper, which I do not care to do because stats are for losers. As for you or anyone else who dismisses W-L records for a QB, we can just agree to disagree, whatever works for you. Edited March 7, 2021 by Rico
GunnerBill Posted March 7, 2021 Posted March 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, Rico said: As for you or anyone else who dismisses W-L records for a QB, we can just agree to disagree, whatever works for you. It isn't dismissing them. They absolutely matter. But they are not everything. They are too blunt of a measure.
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