Watt to Cardinals (bills were Cardinals biggest competition per report)

[Cheektowaga Chad]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Beane is definitely the one who offered 12 mill 😄

 

 

I would guess the bills offer would have been close to 2 years 25 million with between 15 million guaranteed

 

Basically a contract the bills could move on from after year 1

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

Lebron James raised millions of dollars for the Boys and Girls Club and other charities while stringing along viewers for 75 minutes. He gets the Decision thrown back at him every legacy discussion. 

 

JJ Watt created fake peloton account and strung multiple teams and fan bases along on social media over several weeks. He will get the Youtube video of when he "married" a little girl played back to him just to see if he remembers how charming he was. This is indicative of the major problem in our society. An issue we are inherently blind to because we're too close to the problem.  

 

Its hairline discrimination and its wrong. Lebron can't help genetics. He gets his hairline fixed and somehow he gets even more criticism. Meanwhile JJ Watt has hairline privilege and enjoys all the benefits therein. You all need to educate yourselves. 

Lebron just sucks.    Him and his fans are the biggest babies in sports.    
 

Always reaching for affection.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Athletic article directly contradicts that:

 

 

Sounds like there were multiple teams that guaranteed $20 million and the Bills weren't one of them. Doesn't seem like Matthew Fairburn is just speculating. I think this information comes directly from the Bills. 

 

https://theathletic.com/2421172/2021/03/02/why-bills-didnt-sign-j-j-watt-and-what-it-means-for-the-rest-of-their-offseason/?article_source=search&search_query=Matt Fairburn

 

Was this linked above?  Sorry to repeat if so

 

Quote

According to Ed Werder of ESPN, quarterback play, supporting cast and money were among Watt’s priorities when considering teams. The Bills checked all of those boxes but didn’t come particularly close to the best financial offer. That’s not to say winning isn’t a priority for Watt. The Cardinals have an exciting young quarterback in Kyler Murray, pieces in the front seven who could help Watt flourish and a familiar coach in defensive coordinator Vance Joseph, who was in Houston with Watt from 2011 to 2013.

 

Quote

Arizona could definitely compete in the next two seasons, so it’s not as if Watt chose a bottom feeder, but he did pick the best offer on the table. No team was offering what the Cardinals did in terms of guaranteed money. The Bills weren’t close to that ballpark. Watt could have taken a below-market deal to chase a ring, but instead he got his worth and will play for a team that should be competitive in 2021.

 

I think the moral of the story is, once again, when someone says "it's not about the money", it's probably about the money.

 

Quote

The Bills had legitimate interest but only at their price. (.....) That’s the way Beane has done business since he arrived.
(....)

by pursuing Watt, the Bills showed they’re in the market for impact defensive linemen. They also showed that a contract worth $10 million per season isn’t going to prohibit them from pursuing a player despite their cap situation.

 

The Bills didn’t land Watt, but Beane will have them in the mix for other noteworthy veterans.

 

[KGun12TD]

21 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Add Watt to chandler Jones and that secondary, they may be a much better team this year. 

 

Let's see how Chandler come back from injury. Arizona was 8-8 and if wasn't for the "Hail Murray" against us, they're not a .500 team. They are still not better than SEA, LAR, and SF in their division...maybe they'd be better, but I can't see them being a contender.

Edited March 2, 2021 by KGun12TD

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Boxcar said:

I don't want to egg this on, but what changed, exactly? I actually think what's transpired makes the quote more relevant. He didn't see himself winning with Texas, so he left. He proceeded to join a team that also won't win. He was always going to have to take less to go to a contender, he knows that, so he chose money. I would not fault him had he not blown smoke up everyone's ass about his Superbowl aspirations.

 

 

I asked the question to help point out that a lot of what was said about Watt and his search for a new team was mostly conjecture by fans, social media users, and the media. Folks made wild assumptions based on very little real information. "He wants to go to Pittsburgh!" because his brother is there. "He wants to go to Green Bay!" because he is from Wisconsin. "He wants to win a championship!" because he hasnt gone far in the playoffs over his career yet. But none of it, in this period, came from Watt himself. And now folks want to trash him and call him a liar, when he didnt really say ANYTHING since his release.

 

There is one quote, from back in November, where he mentioned he is running out of time to win a championship in the context of the idea that the Texans may go into rebuild mode.

 

Sure, we can use that. But it doesnt really satisfy what I was specifically looking for originally. And I certainly dont see where he "blew smoke up everyone's asses about his Super Bowl aspirations". He has ONE half-sentence about it back in November. It was the media and fans that whipped themselves up on that topic.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[JGMcD2]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But I am still also skeptical of Kyle Shannahan TBH.  I would have never hired him after that Atlanta travesty in the SB personally.  Not like he built that offense, he inherited a potent offensive roster there.  Then to watch him choke away a game like that on a team notorious for choking was just something that would have given me pause as a GM.  The 49er SB did nothing to erase those concerns either, at least not for me.  

Kyle has shown that’s he’s more than competent when it comes to designing offenses and one could argue he was at the forefront of building an offense around a running QB, at least this iteration of it. He’s far from perfect but his track record and success to this point is far superior to Kingsbury and honestly most other NFL coaches. I can’t think of more than 6-7 guys I’d take over Shanahan... 
 

Youngest OC in the NFL when he was hired by Houston, top 10 offense in HOH, top 5 offense in WSH, top 5 offense in ATL, top 5 offense in SF. He’s shown he can do it in a variety of places with QBs like Matt Schuab, RG3, Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. He’s also designed offenses to make severely limited QB like Sage Rosenfels, Donovan McNabb, CJ Beathard, Nick Mullens and Red Grossman look competent and win football games. 
 

I understand there is some apprehension surrounding the Super Bowl against New England... but he also built a 28-3 lead halfway through the 3rdQ. I think you’re putting a lot of blame on a guy when the defense just completely and utterly collapsed as well. Obviously he didn’t help, but he wasn’t taking sacks and holding penalties on drives where they started off by ripping off 8-9 yard gains on the first play and then stalled out after penalties or lack of execution. I’d be more concerned about the fact that after they went up 28-3 New England ripped off drives of 13, 12, 10 and 9 plays. It’s a lot like the Bills game this year when they almost lost to LA up 28-3. Brian Daboll absolutely deserves flack for not being able to continue to move the ball in the 2nd half... but his side of the ball didn’t blow a 28-3 lead. McDermott and Frazier are far more responsible for how that game transpired in the 2nd half than Brian Daboll. Same goes for the Houston playoff game... and I’m very protective of McDermott, but I wouldn’t think to blame Brian Daboll for those collapses. 
 

I’m having a hard time as a GM refusing to hire a guy who’s had success coordinating offenses everywhere he’s gone, been around the game his entire life, learned first hand from one of the greatest coaches ever and has proven he can get to a Super Bowl, just because he was a piece in an epic collapse by an entire team. 
 

Basically it boils down to this for me... would you have been ok hiring Shanahan in the event he never made it to the Super Bowl with ATL and therefore was never part of the collapse against the Patriots? I feel like your opinion may completely change. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[Alphadawg7]

59 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Kyle has shown that’s he’s more than competent when it comes to designing offenses and one could argue he was at the forefront of building an offense around a running QB, at least this iteration of it. He’s far from perfect but his track record and success to this point is far superior to Kingsbury and honestly most other NFL coaches. I can’t think of more than 6-7 guys I’d take over Shanahan... 
 

Youngest OC in the NFL when he was hired by Houston, top 10 offense in HOH, top 5 offense in WSH, top 5 offense in ATL, top 5 offense in SF. He’s shown he can do it in a variety of places with QBs like Matt Schuab, RG3, Matt Ryan and Jimmy G. He’s also designed offenses to make severely limited QB like Sage Rosenfels, Donovan McNabb, CJ Beathard, Nick Mullens and Red Grossman look competent and win football games. 
 

I understand there is some apprehension surrounding the Super Bowl against New England... but he also built a 28-3 lead halfway through the 3rdQ. I think you’re putting a lot of blame on a guy when the defense just completely and utterly collapsed as well. Obviously he didn’t help, but he wasn’t taking sacks and holding penalties on drives where they started off by ripping off 8-9 yard gains on the first play and then stalled out after penalties or lack of execution. I’d be more concerned about the fact that after they went up 28-3 New England ripped off drives of 13, 12, 10 and 9 plays. It’s a lot like the Bills game this year when they almost lost to LA up 28-3. Brian Daboll absolutely deserves flack for not being able to continue to move the ball in the 2nd half... but his side of the ball didn’t blow a 28-3 lead. McDermott and Frazier are far more responsible for how that game transpired in the 2nd half than Brian Daboll. Same goes for the Houston playoff game... and I’m very protective of McDermott, but I wouldn’t think to blame Brian Daboll for those collapses. 
 

I’m having a hard time as a GM refusing to hire a guy who’s had success coordinating offenses everywhere he’s gone, been around the game his entire life, learned first hand from one of the greatest coaches ever and has proven he can get to a Super Bowl, just because he was a piece in an epic collapse by an entire team. 
 

Basically it boils down to this for me... would you have been ok hiring Shanahan in the event he never made it to the Super Bowl with ATL and therefore was never part of the collapse against the Patriots? I feel like your opinion may completely change. 

No disrespect, but you are over dramatizing his resume a bit and glamorizing it like leaving out being fired, and having two jobs last one season. 
 

For example, Houston he was only the OC one season on a potent offense built by Gary Kubiak.  But you just gave Kyle credit for that in your post.  In Washington, it was his offensive guru father that was the HC and you just have Kyle all the credit and left out they all got fired after just 3 seasons.  

 

He didn’t have any real notable success until 2016 where the Falcons were top rated offense the year they went to the SB, but let’s be real, he walked into a pretty potent offense already.

 

And I’ve said before, I’m not saying he’s not a good offensive mind.  Being a offensive guru is not the same thing of being a good HC who has to make game decisions decisions.  And on the biggest stage he floundered twice with very controversial choices.

 

And again, no disrespect, enjoying the convos.  But putting the blame on the Falcons defense is kind of ridiculous considering the Falcons defense should not have even been on the field.  He stupidly kept throwing (incomplete too) and stopping the clock while up huge instead of chewing clock and running the ball when they had a really good ground game too.  The only reason Pats had the time to make a comeback is because Falcons kept giving them the ball back quickly in the fourth without taking any time off the clock.  It was so absurdly stupid I was screaming at the TV the whole fourth quarter and I’m not even a Falcons fan.  
 

His decision making in the Niners SB didn’t do him any favors or even anything to really change the concerns about his decision making either.

 

So yeah, one year in Hou, one year in Cle, three years then fired in Was snd a blown SB in Atlanta were to me a reason to have some pause.  And take out the SB collapse and not a lot changes for me.

 

He has plenty of time to cement himself as a great HC, but for me, I remain skeptical or cautious on anointing him as a great HC.  
 

You said 6-7 guys max you would take over him.  Off the top of my head, I am at about double that of guys I’d hire as HC before I would take Kyle.  I’ve got Kyle right about 14th, although admittedly a couple are close calls like him and McVay for example.  So I’d say a ranking of 10th to 14th is a fair range for him.

 

In no particular order:  McD, Reid, Belichick, Carrol, Harbaugh, Flores, LaFleur, Payton, Vrabel, Reich, Arians, Tomlin and McVay.  

Edited March 2, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

In no particular order:  McD, Reid, Belichick, Carrol, Harbaugh, Flores, LaFleur, Payton, Vrabel, Reich, Arians, Tomlin and McVay.  

I should preface all of this by saying... I’m enjoying the discussion too. It’s all very thoughtful and I am rethinking some things here. 
 

Shanahan was the OC in Houston for two years... not one. First year was a split between Schuab and Rosenfels at QB, next year he had a full season of Schuab. Left Houston to go coach with his Dad in Washington... lateral move... He was the OC in WSH for 4 seasons and not 3 seasons like you said... then was fired and immediately hired to be the OC in Cleveland which only lasted 1 season because he resigned after they were trying to force him to start Manziel.... that’s when he went to ATL... left ATL to become the HC in SF. Also, out of curiosity let me know who was on these potent offenses in HOU. His lead back was Steve Slaton and his #2 WR behind Andre Johnson was Kevin Walter. Washington he’s out there with Ryan Torain, Roy Helu, Santana Moss and Jabar Gaffney
 

I’m not really sure what “building the offense“ has to do with anything. I don’t know many, if any OC that are given the responsibility of building an offense? I mean sure, they have input in the process but don’t have final say. Did Brian Daboll build the offense in Buffalo? He didn’t trade for Diggs, Draft Josh Allen or sign Beasley and Brown? Does he not get credit for having success with the pieces he has? Building a team belongs to the GM and HC. He can’t be penalized for working with what he had... he coordinated top offenses with the talent given to him in HOU, WSH, ATL and SF (where he finally had a stronger say in things and after building up his offense and coordinated another top 5 offense). I don’t think he’s being given the responsibility at 28 years old, of being a HC unless he’s capable of leading and seen as a rising coaching talent. He had been in HOU for 2 seasons prior and teams were looking to poach him to be OC... that’s why Kubiak promoted him. 
 

You’re quick to dismiss him in the instances he has talent and then quick to judge him in the instances it’s clear he’s severely lacking talent. You’re quick to give so much credit to Gary Kubiak and Mike Shanahan for Kyle’s success... but when it comes to placing blame for the Falcons collapse it’s on the OC Kyle Shanahan and not the HC Dan Quinn? That’s kind of confusing to me? When it’s convenient to reward the HC, Shanahan doesn’t get any credit. When it’s convenient to blame Shanahan, the HC Dan Quinn doesn’t factor into the equation. 

 

Isn’t Pete Carroll the same guy who was surprised that the Bills threw the ball so much against them and prepared for their run game? Carroll decided to throw the ball rather than use Beast Mode at the goal line the Super Bowl... that’s a pretty egregious error. Didn’t Flores’ team crap the bed in the biggest game he’s coached to date and half it was against backups? LaFluer has collapsed twice in back to back years in the NFCCG? Andy Reid has a reputation as a notorious choker, just did it again this year. Why do they all get a pass... two of them haven’t even proven capable of making a Super Bowl... one even capable of making the playoffs. The other two didn’t win their first Super Bowl until they were 60+ years old and choked in all of their other opportunities prior? 
 

I agree that being a good OC doesn’t mean you’re a good HC. I think that’s extremely true and often overlooked... but a bunch of those coaches you listed have made plenty of egregious errors themselves that are more inflammatory than Shanahan not running the ball enough up 28-3 with 20 minutes left in the game...

 

And just for the sake of the exercise I would rank them like this personally...

 

Belichick

Reid 

Harbaugh

McDermott

Reich
Payton
Tomlin

Shanahan 
McVay

Carroll

Arians

LaFleur

Vrabel 

Flores 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[YoloinOhio]

[IgotBILLStopay]

Browns were the first with 15 mill+ money and were the only team offering that for a long time. I was told that Cardinals' raised offer was kinda last minute - if you gimme this, I am signing with you kinda deal. But hopefully, more will come out later providing some clarity on the situation. 

 

Bottomline, it was clear that, from Watt's perspective, this decision was primarily about money in his last big contract. 

 

[78thealltimegreat]

6 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Beane is definitely the one who offered 12 mill 😄

 

 

This was fake news that was debunked by Mary Kay Cabot herself as Mike Florio from profootballtalk stated they simply offered the most money and Watt took it they should stop trying to justify that was clearly to much money for the guy 

3 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

Browns were the first with 15 mill+ money and were the only team offering that for a long time. I was told that Cardinals' raised offer was kinda last minute - if you gimme this, I am signing with you kinda deal. But hopefully, more will come out later providing some clarity on the situation. 

 

Bottomline, it was clear that, from Watt's perspective, this decision was primarily about money in his last big contract. 

 

No Browns didn’t this was confirmed by profootballtalk Watt took the most money as Mike Florio confirmed and just word getting out in Arizona to make this ridiculous contract appear justified 

[H2o]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/03/02/j-j-watt-to-kyler-murray-im-here-because-i-believe-in-you/

Quote

 

Watt said that you have to have a quarterback to have a chance of success in the NFL and made it clear that he feels Arizona has one.

 

“I’m here because I believe in you,” Watt said.

 

Pssshhh  Watt is there because Arizona offered him the most money. 

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

I should preface all of this by saying... I’m enjoying the discussion too. It’s all very thoughtful and I am rethinking some things here. 
 

Shanahan was the OC in Houston for two years... not one. First year was a split between Schuab and Rosenfels at QB, next year he had a full season of Schuab. Left Houston to go coach with his Dad in Washington... lateral move... He was the OC in WSH for 4 seasons and not 3 seasons like you said... then was fired and immediately hired to be the OC in Cleveland which only lasted 1 season because he resigned after they were trying to force him to start Manziel.... that’s when he went to ATL... left ATL to become the HC in SF. Also, out of curiosity let me know who was on these potent offenses in HOU. His lead back was Steve Slaton and his #2 WR behind Andre Johnson was Kevin Walter. Washington he’s out there with Ryan Torain, Roy Helu, Santana Moss and Jabar Gaffney
 

I’m not really sure what “building the offense“ has to do with anything. I don’t know many, if any OC that are given the responsibility of building an offense? I mean sure, they have input in the process but don’t have final say. Did Brian Daboll build the offense in Buffalo? He didn’t trade for Diggs, Draft Josh Allen or sign Beasley and Brown? Does he not get credit for having success with the pieces he has? Building a team belongs to the GM and HC. He can’t be penalized for working with what he had... he coordinated top offenses with the talent given to him in HOU, WSH, ATL and SF (where he finally had a stronger say in things and after building up his offense and coordinated another top 5 offense). I don’t think he’s being given the responsibility at 28 years old, of being a HC unless he’s capable of leading and seen as a rising coaching talent. He had been in HOU for 2 seasons prior and teams were looking to poach him to be OC... that’s why Kubiak promoted him. 
 

You’re quick to dismiss him in the instances he has talent and then quick to judge him in the instances it’s clear he’s severely lacking talent. You’re quick to give so much credit to Gary Kubiak and Mike Shanahan for Kyle’s success... but when it comes to placing blame for the Falcons collapse it’s on the OC Kyle Shanahan and not the HC Dan Quinn? That’s kind of confusing to me? When it’s convenient to reward the HC, Shanahan doesn’t get any credit. When it’s convenient to blame Shanahan, the HC Dan Quinn doesn’t factor into the equation. 

 

Isn’t Pete Carroll the same guy who was surprised that the Bills threw the ball so much against them and prepared for their run game? Carroll decided to throw the ball rather than use Beast Mode at the goal line the Super Bowl... that’s a pretty egregious error. Didn’t Flores’ team crap the bed in the biggest game he’s coached to date and half it was against backups? LaFluer has collapsed twice in back to back years in the NFCCG? Andy Reid has a reputation as a notorious choker, just did it again this year. Why do they all get a pass... two of them haven’t even proven capable of making a Super Bowl... one even capable of making the playoffs. The other two didn’t win their first Super Bowl until they were 60+ years old and choked in all of their other opportunities prior? 
 

I agree that being a good OC doesn’t mean you’re a good HC. I think that’s extremely true and often overlooked... but a bunch of those coaches you listed have made plenty of egregious errors themselves that are more inflammatory than Shanahan not running the ball enough up 28-3 with 20 minutes left in the game...

 

And just for the sake of the exercise I would rank them like this personally...

 

Belichick

Reid 

Harbaugh

McDermott

Reich
Payton
Tomlin

Shanahan 
McVay

Carroll

Arians

LaFleur

Vrabel 

Flores 

 

 

My bad, you are right it was 2 years in Hou as OC which was 2008, and 2009.  Here are some points though I think you are missing:

• Houston was 3rd in the league on offense the first year Kyle left.  They didn't miss a beat without him there.  
• Slaton ran for 1300 yards and caught 50 passes in 2008 with 13 TDs, so not sure why you mock that, we would kill for that kind of production.
  • Granted, he was injured on and off in 2009 and opened the door for Arian Foster to emerge later part of the season, so his stay as production back was short lived.  Although it was fun seeing his name again as he won me 2 Fantasy SB's in 2008 haha.  
• So hard to say what kind of impact he had on Houston when he had a good ground game, Andre Johnson and Schaub who was a pretty productive passer in his time in Houston.

Then in Washington, there was only one year where the offense was one of the top 5 in the league, and it was RG3 rookie year where he took the league by storm.  But Kyle would be fired along with his dad just one season later after they ran RG3 into the ground and mishandled his body and injuries which pretty much RG3 was never able to find that form again.  

 

And in Atlanta he too inherited a top 10 offense already and only had one season where the offense ranked noticeably higher than usual when he finished 2nd in the league in yards and they reached the SB.  A SB which they had in the bag until his terrible decisions cost them the ability to close the game out and gave the Pats time to mount a crazy comeback.  

 

When I say building an offense, I mean taking over a personnel group and turning around the offense.  I could walk into KC today and be the OC there and have a top 5 offense because the pieces are in place.  It doesn't automatically make me some great coordinator and great HC candidate.

 

So what do we really have...2 years in Houston as an OC with a pretty talented cast on offense where the team didn't miss a beat the year after he left.  One great year in 4 in Washington where RG3 took the league by storm before how they handled him ran him into the ground and his career never recovered.  A short stop in Atlanta taking over a potent offense with one great season on his resume there that ended in blowing a SB on his play calling decisions.  

 

So again, yeah, I have pause with Kyle with or without the SB gaffes.  I am not saying he's not a coach on the rise, or even that he is a bad coach.  This whole convo started when someone propped him up as top tier coach.  You can do a lot worse than Kyle for sure, but I also think it is way premature to say he is a top 10 coach.  

 

And our dialogue probably comes across as if I hate Kyle or something, which I honestly don't.  I am just making the case that I think its pre-mature to anoint him as a top 10 guy right now.  I think 10-14 is a fair spot, where I personally have him 14.  I would for instance rather have Flores who I have watched get the most out of his players in his first 2 years in Miami and over achieve with a below average roster.  I named him since you had him last on your list.   

 

None the less, enjoying the dialogue, cheers bud 

[YoloinOhio]

Give the Bills shirt to Dhop

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

it was all about the $ JJ. that hail mary stab on the bills brought you down quite few notches with me and I wish you nothing but the worst on your last hitch. how many games did az win last season? if they think adding him will make them a sudden contender, funny stuff. good luck.

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

it was all about the $ JJ. that hail mary stab on the bills brought you down quite few notches with me and I wish you nothing but the worst on your last hitch. how many games did az win last season? if they think adding him will make them a sudden contender, funny stuff. good luck.

 

Hard to say it was all about the money when he turned down offers for more money with teams who made the playoffs last year in Browns and Colts.  I think that narrative can now be put to rest.  

[nucci]

it's like you guys are taking this personally that he signed elsewhere and pissed that he signed for a lot of money. 

[Dr.Sack]

No big deal. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

My bad, you are right it was 2 years in Hou as OC which was 2008, and 2009.  Here are some points though I think you are missing:

• Houston was 3rd in the league on offense the first year Kyle left.  They didn't miss a beat without him there.  
• Slaton ran for 1300 yards and caught 50 passes in 2008 with 13 TDs, so not sure why you mock that, we would kill for that kind of production.
  • Granted, he was injured on and off in 2009 and opened the door for Arian Foster to emerge later part of the season, so his stay as production back was short lived.  Although it was fun seeing his name again as he won me 2 Fantasy SB's in 2008 haha.  
• So hard to say what kind of impact he had on Houston when he had a good ground game, Andre Johnson and Schaub who was a pretty productive passer in his time in Houston.

Then in Washington, there was only one year where the offense was one of the top 5 in the league, and it was RG3 rookie year where he took the league by storm.  But Kyle would be fired along with his dad just one season later after they ran RG3 into the ground and mishandled his body and injuries which pretty much RG3 was never able to find that form again.  

 

And in Atlanta he too inherited a top 10 offense already and only had one season where the offense ranked noticeably higher than usual when he finished 2nd in the league in yards and they reached the SB.  A SB which they had in the bag until his terrible decisions cost them the ability to close the game out and gave the Pats time to mount a crazy comeback.  

 

When I say building an offense, I mean taking over a personnel group and turning around the offense.  I could walk into KC today and be the OC there and have a top 5 offense because the pieces are in place.  It doesn't automatically make me some great coordinator and great HC candidate.

 

So what do we really have...2 years in Houston as an OC with a pretty talented cast on offense where the team didn't miss a beat the year after he left.  One great year in 4 in Washington where RG3 took the league by storm before how they handled him ran him into the ground and his career never recovered.  A short stop in Atlanta taking over a potent offense with one great season on his resume there that ended in blowing a SB on his play calling decisions.  

 

So again, yeah, I have pause with Kyle with or without the SB gaffes.  I am not saying he's not a coach on the rise, or even that he is a bad coach.  This whole convo started when someone propped him up as top tier coach.  You can do a lot worse than Kyle for sure, but I also think it is way premature to say he is a top 10 coach.  

 

And our dialogue probably comes across as if I hate Kyle or something, which I honestly don't.  I am just making the case that I think its pre-mature to anoint him as a top 10 guy right now.  I think 10-14 is a fair spot, where I personally have him 14.  I would for instance rather have Flores who I have watched get the most out of his players in his first 2 years in Miami and over achieve with a below average roster.  I named him since you had him last on your list.   

 

None the less, enjoying the dialogue, cheers bud 

More than fair in Houston... but wouldn't that be a plus for Shanahan in regards to Slaton? I wasn't mocking it... he just wasn't a household name and not someone I think about when I think of potent. He was a rookie in '08 when Shanahan took over and he got that type of production from him in what ended up being his best season. It's not like he was out there with household ready made superstars... he was 28 with a pretty solid QB in Schuab, a great WR in Johnson and a rookie RB. When Schaub played they were significantly more productive, but he was injured and Sage Rosenfels had to play 5 games. They were #17 in scoring, 4th in passing and 13th in rushing... the year before they were 12th in scoring, 11th in passing and 22nd in rushing. He did a fairly decent job that first year and then the next year without Slaton improved their scoring and passing production while taking a big dip in rushing (I would say because he had a revolving door of RB until Foster broke out).

 

I definitely agree that he and his Dad deserve blame and probably deserve to be fired for their handling of RG3, but this is a really good example of him being in WSH and building up the offense like you stated you wanted to see him do. He took over that personnel group and improve it from Y1 to Y3 and it fell apart when RG3 fell apart and that's their fault, but he's still sitting there younger than 35 with all of this experience, and some pretty significant success coordinating and improving in Houston and then building things up in WSH. While they did ruin RG3, part of the reason that they got fired was because they wanted to move forward with Kirk Cousins as the guy and it's well documented that they didn't even really want RG3 in the first place, but they managed to build an offense around him and have some really good results that first year. 

 

“”[Redskins owner Dan Snyder] knew I wasn’t very happy about what we did, but he wanted everybody to celebrate how smart we were, so we jumped on his plane and met the other owners on his yacht,” Shanahan said. “Everyone was celebrating. I just didn’t think it was very smart to give up that much for a guy who we didn’t even know if he could drop back and throw. “When I finally sat down with Dan, I said, ‘Hey, you own the team. We can work with him and do some things. But we haven’t seen anything on tape that warrants giving [up] this type of compensation.’ To me, it was absolutely crazy. But I told Dan that if that’s what he wanted to do, I’d make it work.””

 

Definitely have to take that statement from Mike Shanahan with a grain of salt, but Dan Snyder is easily the worst owner in sports and many coaches have cited issues like this in the past. Not to mention the toxic culture there. Yeah they got fired, but in my opinion it was more because Snyder was upset RG3 fell apart and wanted coaches who would agree to continue to work with him because of the resources invested in him. Mike and Kyle get blame there obviously, but they also have to get credit for getting the most out of RG3 by designing an offense to put him in a position to succeed. 

 

I think it's premature to anoint Flores as a top 10 head coach, or even above Shanahan. I actually personally really like Flores a lot, but he has more questions surrounding him in my opinion. He was a defensive play caller for 1 season after spending a decade with various personnel groups such as ST, in the secondary and with the LBs. His decision making has been subpar on several occasions as the head coach in MIA... he's absolutely a great motivator of men... but then again where was that week 17 this year against the Bills? Their whole season on the line, playoffs right there for them... all they have to do is win and they're in. They got beat by the Bills first stringers in the first half but continue to get smacked around by their backups in the second half. The team just completely folded in the biggest moment. That was Brian Flores' Super Bowl to date and he absolutely choked. You can get on Shanahan for choking with ATL and SF in the Super Bowl, but at least he has shown capable of making the decisions to get to that point. Flores choked in his biggest game yet and it was just to get into the playoffs. He also completely botched his QB situation with Fitzpatrick and Tua in 2020. That first year the roster was definitely really very poor and he did a great job getting to 5-11 but this year they poured a ton of money into their team and midway through the season people were saying they were AFCE favorites and going to knock the Bills off... they had plenty of talent and resources invested into their team and I'd argue Flores potentially held them back from take a bigger leap forward this  year by flip flopping between Tua and Fitz... and he still had a crack at getting things right and the team straight up just folded despite him being a great motivator of men, which truthfully is his only calling card at this point... he doesn't have anything else to really fall back on. Never been a HC, only called defensive plays for 1 season... I guess maybe the fact he comes from NE.... but that coaching true is full of horrible failure so I wouldn't want to rely on that (I will say he's definitely different than the other guys who have come from NE, he's on record saying he needs to care about his guys and has to be himself and not a Belichick clone... which is really great self awareness).

 

You're excited about Flores taking a severely undermanned team to a 5-11 record in 2019... I think that's great too... but where's the love for Shanahan taking a team where he had nearly $80M in cap space on the IR to a 6-10 record, starting 3 different QBs, missing his top offense weapons at various points during the season, major pieces on his D-LINE (combined 7 games played from Bosa, Ansah, Ford and Thomas) hurt for pretty much the entire season and having to move and play home games at a different stadium in a different state because of COVID.... which required tremendous leadership ability. The only argument for saying Flores is a better head coach is that he's gotten good results from a bad roster... Shanahan just went out and had a roster arguably as undermanned as Flores had in 2019, paired with even more difficult circumstances and he managed to go 6-10. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[stevestojan]

He’s taking a retired number. Lame move. 

(Also, doesn’t this make a “retired” number meaningless?)