Watson vs Allen.

[dave mcbride]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I get that. At times the last two years though he has just played some flat out bad football that is kind of hard to unsee. Even against Green Bay in the playoffs the second half he was bad. He is a winner. The greatest QB of all time and a flat out winner. I just think the play is a lot more uneven than it used to be, regardless of how well he played in the Superbowl. 

What I think people are missing about Brady is that more than any QB in the league ever, he has answers. Whatever you throw at him—especially in meaningful games—he’ll figure it out and make the right decisions. Josh Allen, for instance, clearly isn’t there yet. To be sure, Brady isn’t perfect every game. He’ll occasionally even lose a playoff game. But in terms of diagnosing and exploiting what’s in front of him, no QB compares. As for physical attributes, they’re certainly good enough. He can make every throw even if his arm doesn’t compare to those of Allen, Rodgers, and Mahomes. One of the great myths of our era is that Aaron Rodgers is somehow the GOAT. He is a phenomenal QB, but too often doesn’t have the answers in big games.

Edited February 20, 2021 by dave mcbride

[Rico]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

What I think people are missing about Brady is that more than any QB in the league ever, he has answers. Whatever you throw at him—especially in meaningful games—he’ll figure it out and make the right decisions. Josh Allen, for instance, clearly isn’t there yet. To be sure, Brady isn’t perfect every game. He’ll occasionally even lose a playoff game. But in terms of diagnosing and exploiting what’s in front of him, no QB compares. As for physical attributes, they’re certainly good enough. He can make every throw even if his arm doesn’t compare to those of Allen, Rodgers, and Mahomes. One of the great myths of our era is that Aaron Rodgers is somehow the GOAT. He is a phenomenal QB, but too often doesn’t have the answers in big games.

The king of intangibles. You won't find this on any stat sheet unless you are looking for most rings.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

What I think people are missing about Brady is that more than any QB in the league ever, he has answers. Whatever you throw at him—especially in meaningful games—he’ll figure it out and make the right decisions. Josh Allen, for instance, clearly isn’t there yet. To be sure, Brady isn’t perfect every game. He’ll occasionally even lose a playoff game. But in terms of diagnosing and exploiting what’s in front of him, no QB compares. As for physical attributes, they’re certainly good enough. He can make every throw even if his arm doesn’t compare to those of Allen, Rodgers, and Mahomes. One of the great myths of our era is that Aaron Rodgers is somehow the GOAT. He is a phenomenal QB, but too often doesn’t have the answers in big games.

 

I don't disagree with any of that. But the bad games are much more common than they used to be. That is understandable. He is 40 freaking 3. I don't think saying he is still the 6th best Quarterback in the world is anything other than ultimate respect for his ability to find a way.

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I think Watson is better than Burrow and Herbert at this stage by still some distance. But I have said there are only 7 teams who shouldn't at least be calling about Deshaun Watson and two of those are Cincy and the Chargers because they have 4 more years of cost control (3 of stringent cost control) with guys who looked good to very good as rookies. 

 

That was my thinking to.  Watson is better today but not by much and if Burrow & Herbert improve as much as I think they will next year they'll be nipping at Watson's heels and costing their teams a hell of a lot less money.

 

As an aside I fully expect Allen to make another jump next year.  He has improved every year since the Senior Bowl so I feel safe in assuming he has at least one more jump left in him.  

 

Right now the odds are better that Allen will hit his highest upside then he will stall out where he is now.  Last season was not a one year wonder but the continued climb of a young QB from high school to his 3rd year in the NFL.  It's really quite extraordinary when you think about the progress Allen has made over that time.

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

That was my thinking to.  Watson is better today but not by much and if Burrow & Herbert improve as much as I think they will next year they'll be nipping at Watson's heels and costing their teams a hell of a lot less money.

 

As an aside I fully expect Allen to make another jump next year.  He has improved every year since the Senior Bowl so I feel safe in assuming he has at least one more jump left in him.  

 

Right now the odds are better that Allen will hit his highest upside then he will stall out where he is now.  Last season was not a one year wonder but the continued climb of a young QB from high school to his 3rd year in the NFL.  It's really quite extraordinary when you think about the progress Allen has made over that time.

 

He's still relatively inexperienced.  The more he plays the better he'll get. 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That was my thinking to.  Watson is better today but not by much and if Burrow & Herbert improve as much as I think they will next year they'll be nipping at Watson's heels and costing their teams a hell of a lot less money.

 

As an aside I fully expect Allen to make another jump next year.  He has improved every year since the Senior Bowl so I feel safe in assuming he has at least one more jump left in him.  

 

Right now the odds are better that Allen will hit his highest upside then he will stall out where he is now.  Last season was not a one year wonder but the continued climb of a young QB from high school to his 3rd year in the NFL.  It's really quite extraordinary when you think about the progress Allen has made over that time.

 

 

While I agree with that on Allen I am not sure I buy the built in assumption that Watson has totally plateaued and therefore Burrow and Herbert are bound to close the gap. He just had his best individual season as a pro. There is no guarantee that by the time they need paying Herbert and Burrow have caught him, thought Cincy and LAC should definitely take the chance to find out. Still think Watson is better than you think he is.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:29 AM, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I took your suggestion up and asked one Cleveland and five Cincinnati fans if they would rather have Allen or Watson.  The Browns fan & four of the five Bengals fans said they would take Allen over Watson in a heart beat. The remaining Bengal's fan said it would be a toss up and he would be happy with either.

 

I think we may be underestimating how much Allen has moved up among non-Bills fans based on his National TV performances starting last Thanksgiving against Dallas.

 

A common theme among those I asked was that they felt like Watson had plateaued and Allen was still improving.

 

 

 

This.  I live in Hawai'i and i can count on one hand the amount of locals who were born and bred here in Hawai'i who are longtime Bills fans.  Over the last few months as I've been going out in public with my Bills shirts and/or Bills mask on I've had numerous random strangers strike up conversations about how good our quarterback--and thus our team--is now.

 

More than once I've gotten people who have just said "I love your Quarterback."

 

Let's just pray Allen doesn't get any serious injuries, because he's here to stay if he can stay healthy.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:55 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true to an extent. The Texans were definitely in a lot of back and forth shoot out games. Watson was 10th in attempts this year. Part of the reason he led the league in passing was he completed over 70% of his throws and it can't all be attributed to soft coverage giving him the underneath throws - he was 2nd in the league in intended air yards per attempt behind only Tom Brady and led the league in completed air yards per attempt and completed air yards per completion. He was only 15th in the league in YAC by receivers. In short Watson's number were good mainly because he is really, really good. Yes, the type of games his team played was a factor, but not as big a factor as his ability. He is a top 5 Quarterback. Rather than continuing to try and caveat his play Bills fans should be going "wow that guy is great and yet I don't need to feel jealous about it because we have one of the very few guys who is better." But Bills fans have this chip on their shoulder that everyone else's guys get respect and the Bills' guys don't and it makes them respond to things in some odd ways. 

 

I think you're trying to be much too objective here and it's slanting reality. Yeah, you're right that Watson is a great QB.  I 100% agree.  However, there has been so much raving publicly about the season he just had without acknowledging the very real and warranted caveat that so much of his statistically great season was garbage time.

 

It's been something talked about with every single Bills QB since Kelly when a QB plays well towards the ends of games when they're out of reach... it's completely fair to bring it up with Watson. who threw 23 TDs when trailing in games this season and more TDs in the 4th quarter (13) than any other quarter.

 

Watson's great, but I think it's misguided to look at the season he just had as some kind of validation of his greatness.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 2/19/2021 at 7:25 AM, CincyBillsFan said:

 

 

IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson.  My next 7 would be:  Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

 

 

I like your list and agree completely with the top 5.  I'd put Watson at 6 just behind Wilson, though.  And yeah, I think Wilson is better than Watson.  And I think everyone behind them falls off a cliff, including Jackson who I just don't think will ever "get over the hump" and become what he needs to become.

 

I love looking at that list right now, actually.  It shows me that there are a LOT of teams in the NFL right now with potential QB issues and we are no longer one of them.

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think you're trying to be much too objective here and it's slanting reality. Yeah, you're right that Watson is a great QB.  I 100% agree.  However, there has been so much raving publicly about the season he just had without acknowledging the very real and warranted caveat that so much of his statistically great season was garbage time.

 

It's been something talked about with every single Bills QB since Kelly when a QB plays well towards the ends of games when they're out of reach... it's completely fair to bring it up with Watson. who threw 23 TDs when trailing in games this season and more TDs in the 4th quarter (13) than any other quarter.

 

Watson's great, but I think it's misguided to look at the season he just had as some kind of validation of his greatness.

Been here for 20 years.....there’s been some talk....but there hasn’t been a bills QB that has put together numbers that have been worth even discussing....even in garbage time.  Comparing discussion about watsons garbage time stats to former Bills qb stats Is a poor comparison.  Jmo

 

According to people that watch games....and not just look at stats, Watson had a great season.  Terrible OL.  Terrible run game.  Terrible coaching.  Terrible defense. All Midget WRs.  Crap TEs. It was Watson vs other teams.  Garbage time stats aside, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances 

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think you're trying to be much too objective here and it's slanting reality. Yeah, you're right that Watson is a great QB.  I 100% agree.  However, there has been so much raving publicly about the season he just had without acknowledging the very real and warranted caveat that so much of his statistically great season was garbage time.

 

It's been something talked about with every single Bills QB since Kelly when a QB plays well towards the ends of games when they're out of reach... it's completely fair to bring it up with Watson. who threw 23 TDs when trailing in games this season and more TDs in the 4th quarter (13) than any other quarter.

 

Watson's great, but I think it's misguided to look at the season he just had as some kind of validation of his greatness.

 

Disagree. They were not miles behind in a lot of those games. Did the sort of games he played in affect some of his numbers? Absolutely. Was it the main factor? Nope. Or else he wouldn't also lead the league in air yards per completion. Unless the argument is "okay it was prevent but every pass he completed against prevent was 15-20 yards downfield." Which would be one strange sort of prevent defense. 

 

Yes the games he was in matter. They matter less than how good Deshaun Watson is.

Edited February 21, 2021 by GunnerBill

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I like your list and agree completely with the top 5.  I'd put Watson at 6 just behind Wilson, though.  And yeah, I think Wilson is better than Watson.  And I think everyone behind them falls off a cliff, including Jackson who I just don't think will ever "get over the hump" and become what he needs to become.

 

I love looking at that list right now, actually.  It shows me that there are a LOT of teams in the NFL right now with potential QB issues and we are no longer one of them.

You think watson falls off of a cliff behind Wilson?   I don’t see it

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You think watson falls off of a cliff behind Wilson?   I don’t see it

 

I don't think that is what he meant. I think he meant there is a cliff after those 6 - and I agree with him there is. Personally I have Watson top of the 2nd tier ahead of Wilson and the 43 year old, but I can take an argument that he is the back of that queue. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made, although not one I agree with. There is zero argument that he should be ranked any lower than 6th. And the gap between 6th and 7th is where the real drop is. I think I'd have Tannehill #7. And I don't think he is in the same group as Watson at all.

Edited February 21, 2021 by GunnerBill

[transplantbillsfan]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Disagree. They were not miles behind in a lot of those games. Did the sort of games he played in affect some of his numbers? Absolutely. Was it the main factor? Nope. Or else he wouldn't also lead the league in air yards per completion. Unless the argument is "okay it was prevent but every pass he completed against prevent was 15-20 yards downfield." Which would be one strange sort of prevent defense. 

 

Yes the games he was in matter. They matter less than how good Deshaun Watson is.

 

Watson helped keep his team in a lot of those games, absolutely.  But it's also true that a good chunk of his production came in garbage time or blowout losses like against Chicago or Green Bay.

 

7 of his 36 TDs were in garbage time/blowout losses.

 

If you're really being objective here then I think it's fine to acknowledge that Watson is an Elite QB, but 2020 was NOT his best year in the NFL as everyone seems to be arguing.  And much of that was absolutely no fault of his own.

[transplantbillsfan]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Been here for 20 years.....there’s been some talk....but there hasn’t been a bills QB that has put together numbers that have been worth even discussing....even in garbage time.  Comparing discussion about watsons garbage time stats to former Bills qb stats Is a poor comparison.  Jmo

 

According to people that watch games....and not just look at stats, Watson had a great season.  Terrible OL.  Terrible run game.  Terrible coaching.  Terrible defense. All Midget WRs.  Crap TEs. It was Watson vs other teams.  Garbage time stats aside, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances 

 

Yes, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances, but if you are objectively framing his season, there's NO REASON to push 2020 as Watson's best season or anything close to it.

 

It's not just the 7 TDs he scored in blowout losses/garbage time.  It's also the 9 TDs he scored in 3 of his 4 wins against the 2 worst defenses in the league of Detroit and Jacksonville.

 

That's 16 of his 36 TDs.

 

Good year for Watson.  Bravo for doing what he could with that team... but can we please stop presenting it as some kind of magical year that's a notch on his belt towards the HOF?

32 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You think watson falls off of a cliff behind Wilson?   I don’t see it

 

Read what I wrote.  That's not what I said even though it's clearly what you're hoping I said.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 2/19/2021 at 8:08 PM, Nelius said:

Nobody's actually "exploring" this. Real top 5 looking forward are Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, Murray, Wilson/Watson, with significant emphasis on ranking Allen above Watson. Justin Herbert lurking in honorable mention. Brady's an enigma, I'm not including him in these things. He could throw ducks for 2,000 yards next year and still win a Super Bowl apparently, I don't know how you rank that.

 

Murray?????

 

Seriously????

 

I strongly disagree.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Murray?????

 

Seriously????

 

I strongly disagree.

 

Not even sure Murray is top 10. 

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances, but if you are objectively framing his season, there's NO REASON to push 2020 as Watson's best season or anything close to it.

 

It's not just the 7 TDs he scored in blowout losses/garbage time.  It's also the 9 TDs he scored in 3 of his 4 wins against the 2 worst defenses in the league of Detroit and Jacksonville.

 

That's 16 of his 36 TDs.

 

Good year for Watson.  Bravo for doing what he could with that team... but can we please stop presenting it as some kind of magical year that's a notch on his belt towards the HOF?

 

Read what I wrote.  That's not what I said even though it's clearly what you're hoping I said.

I misunderstood....my bad

 

Regarding the bolded....I wasn’t “hoping” for anything.  I’m reading a message board and reacting to what I read in this situation, what I thought I read).  I don’t have anything against you and don’t really know too much about you as a poster.  We’ve had a little back in forth but nothing that would make me pass judgement 

[NewEra]

29 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances, but if you are objectively framing his season, there's NO REASON to push 2020 as Watson's best season or anything close to it.

 

It's not just the 7 TDs he scored in blowout losses/garbage time.  It's also the 9 TDs he scored in 3 of his 4 wins against the 2 worst defenses in the league of Detroit and Jacksonville.

 

That's 16 of his 36 TDs.

 

Good year for Watson.  Bravo for doing what he could with that team... but can we please stop presenting it as some kind of magical year that's a notch on his belt towards the HOF?

 

Read what I wrote.  That's not what I said even though it's clearly what you're hoping I said.

I certainly didn’t act like he had a magical year.  I’m acting like he’s a great QB that played on a crappy team.  He’s not a great QB because of what he did last season. He’s a great qb because of what he’s done as a starting QB in the league since his first game.  I feel that he could be getting better, just as many qBs improve with experience.  If he continues to play like he has for the next 10 years, he’ll certainly be in the HoF.....but you brought up the HoF, not me.  
 

He’s a great QB that might be available in a trade. Probably (easily imo), the best QB ever on the trade market.  Most teams should do what they need to get him.  

Edited February 21, 2021 by NewEra

[John from Riverside]

I think regardless of the tiers when you have a legit franchise QB....you have a legit franchise QB

 

Then it goes down to the ability to put the team around them that a.  fit his skillset and b. there is someone else that can make a damn play on both sides of the ball.

 

If our D was as good as it had been the previous year.......we have better seeding and we are playing in the Super Bowl....I truly believe that.