Watson vs Allen.

[JerseyBills]

Not looking good🙁

[FireChans]

35 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

What was your point here again? Oh wait

 

...

 

 

 

I'd recommend spending less time feeling embarrassed by other people's opinions, personally.

 

 

Yeah, my point stands. Watson is a great QB. If you can’t see that, it’s on you

[Patrick Duffy]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah, my point stands. Watson is a great QB. If you can’t see that, it’s on you

Not speaking for the poster you quoted, but I think most ppl know Watson is a good QB. I believe he was saying he's not as great/good without Hopkins and that he's not as good as Allen. 

 

But I mean most QB's will struggle when they lose a WR like that anyway. Unless you're Brady. Lol many seasons he made nobody's look good.

 

I also think Allen is better than Watson, although this was his 1st really good season. I just think Allen will get even better, which will be even more scary than he already is for the rest of the teams they face.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Patrick_Duffy

[Nihilarian]

I wouldn't trade Josh Allen for any other NFL QB or the supposed generational rookie QB Trevor Lawrence!

 

Josh is simply the perfect fit for Buffalo! 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Not speaking for the poster you quoted, but I think most ppl know Watson is a good QB. I believe he was saying he's not as great/good without Hopkins and that he's not as good as Allen. 

 

But I mean most QB's will struggle when they lose a WR like that anyway. Unless you're Brady. Lol many seasons he made nobody's look good.

 

I also think Allen is better than Watson, although this was his 1st really good season. I just think Allen will get even better, which will be even more scary than he already is for the rest of the teams they face.

He was wrong.  Watson had his best season as a pro last year without Hopkins.

 

Watson didn't struggle last year, like at all. He commanded a top 5 passing attack in the NFL, he had 36 total TD's (most in his career), led the league in passing yards, and had the highest YPA in the NFL.

 

He did this paired with the second worst rushing attack in the NFL, and his team also managed to field the worst rushing defense in the NFL, a bottom 10 passing defense in the NFL, and the third worst total defense in the NFL.

 

His team scored 30+ points in 4 games and went 1-3 in those games. 8 of their losses were by 1 score or less.

 

Watson is a GREAT QB.  He has been a GREAT QB. He is in the top 6 of QB's and he quite literally has never had a bad season in his CAREER.

 

And all that being said, Josh was better last year. I would take Josh over Watson today. But Watson is still great. If Josh retired tomorrow and we somehow acquired Watson, I wouldn't jump off a bridge. That's all.

[transplantbillsfan]

I really love that we're able to have this conversation because I think Watson is a fantastic QB... I just think Josh is better.

 

I would not take that trade.  By now you've heard multiple guys--including Greg Cossell--say that Josh Allen is the most talented QB in the league right now and out of any QBs coming out of the draft.  And that's combination of size, arm strength, speed, elusiveness, running ability, toughness, etc.  Those that don't believe me... it was on one of Cossell's weekly appearances on the Cowherd show I believe.

 

Allen is still getting better and has the ability to be the GOAT. (Unfortunately, I don't think anyone will ever catch Brady's 7 rings... but I'd love to see Josh try).

 

Once again, I think Watson is a fantastic QB... probably top 5 in the NFL... so basically, he's Elite.

 

Allen is just better and is still getting better.

 

And I honestly don't even think that's the homer in me talking.  I think most experts would say NO to trading Watson for Allen straight up.

Edited February 18, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[GunnerBill]

On 2/18/2021 at 3:32 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

I really love that we're able to have this conversation because I think Watson is a fantastic QB... I just think Josh is better.

 

I would not take that trade.  By now you've heard multiple guys--including Greg Cossell--say that Josh Allen is the most talented QB in the league right now and out of any QBs coming out of the draft.  And that's combination of size, arm strength, speed, elusiveness, running ability, toughness, etc.  Those that don't believe me... it was on one of Cossell's weekly appearances on the Cowherd show I believe.

 

Allen is still getting better and has the ability to be the GOAT. (Unfortunately, I don't think anyone will ever catch Brady's 7 rings... but I'd love to see Josh try).

 

Once again, I think Watson is a fantastic QB... probably top 5 in the NFL... so basically, he's Elite.

 

Allen is just better and is still getting better.

 

And I honestly don't even think that's the homer in me talking.  I think most experts would say NO to trading Watson for Allen straight up.

 

I think most General Managers would say "no" but most general managers don't have Josh Allen. I said in the offseason there are only 6 maybe 7 General Managers who wouldn't be interested in trading for Desahun Watson. Brandon Beane is one of them.

 

I think the talk of the GOAT should be put on hold a little yet. You need a ring before that conversation can start IMO, but Josh is a top 3 Quarterback right now... or at least was in 2020... and there is no good reason to expect he will regress. 

[DCofNC]

You are splitting hairs between the 2 of them in terms of production.  Watson has a little longer track record of success, Allen appears to have room to grow and played this year at an elite level.  You would never trade JA, too much good to even consider it.  These 2 along with Maholmes, probably Burrow and based on last year Herbert are going to be the next generation of greats that everyone wishes they had and every fan base feels their is the best.  I’m just happy to have a guy we can clearly look at and be happy as hell we have him.

On 2/17/2021 at 12:42 AM, FireChans said:

He was wrong.  Watson had his best season as a pro last year without Hopkins.

 

Watson didn't struggle last year, like at all. He commanded a top 5 passing attack in the NFL, he had 36 total TD's (most in his career), led the league in passing yards, and had the highest YPA in the NFL.

 

He did this paired with the second worst rushing attack in the NFL, and his team also managed to field the worst rushing defense in the NFL, a bottom 10 passing defense in the NFL, and the third worst total defense in the NFL.

 

His team scored 30+ points in 4 games and went 1-3 in those games. 8 of their losses were by 1 score or less.

 

Watson is a GREAT QB.  He has been a GREAT QB. He is in the top 6 of QB's and he quite literally has never had a bad season in his CAREER.

 

And all that being said, Josh was better last year. I would take Josh over Watson today. But Watson is still great. If Josh retired tomorrow and we somehow acquired Watson, I wouldn't jump off a bridge. That's all.

Nailed it.

[CincyBillsFan]

On 2/16/2021 at 11:00 PM, ScottLaw said:

It’s close, Allen had a break out season but Watsons been doing it longer and more consistently. 

 

I wouldn’t swap Allen for Watson but I can understand why many would. If you asked a non Bills fans this question I would suspect most would say Watson, but it’s def close. 

 

I took your suggestion up and asked one Cleveland and five Cincinnati fans if they would rather have Allen or Watson.  The Browns fan & four of the five Bengals fans said they would take Allen over Watson in a heart beat. The remaining Bengal's fan said it would be a toss up and he would be happy with either.

 

I think we may be underestimating how much Allen has moved up among non-Bills fans based on his National TV performances starting last Thanksgiving against Dallas.

 

A common theme among those I asked was that they felt like Watson had plateaued and Allen was still improving.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

On 2/17/2021 at 12:42 AM, FireChans said:

He was wrong.  Watson had his best season as a pro last year without Hopkins.

 

Watson didn't struggle last year, like at all. He commanded a top 5 passing attack in the NFL, he had 36 total TD's (most in his career), led the league in passing yards, and had the highest YPA in the NFL.

 

He did this paired with the second worst rushing attack in the NFL, and his team also managed to field the worst rushing defense in the NFL, a bottom 10 passing defense in the NFL, and the third worst total defense in the NFL.

 

His team scored 30+ points in 4 games and went 1-3 in those games. 8 of their losses were by 1 score or less.

 

Watson is a GREAT QB.  He has been a GREAT QB. He is in the top 6 of QB's and he quite literally has never had a bad season in his CAREER.

 

And all that being said, Josh was better last year. I would take Josh over Watson today. But Watson is still great. If Josh retired tomorrow and we somehow acquired Watson, I wouldn't jump off a bridge. That's all.

 

I agree with most of what you say here including that Watson is a great QB. 

 

But I would point out that the situations you highlight go a long way towards explaining Watson's great stats.  He was often playing from behind in track meet type games. There is no doubt he faced way more prevent coverage then Allen did and his numbers reflect that.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I agree with most of what you say here including that Watson is a great QB. 

 

But I would point out that the situations you highlight go a long way towards explaining Watson's great stats.  He was often playing from behind in track meet type games. There is no doubt he faced way more prevent coverage then Allen did and his numbers reflect that.

 

This is true to an extent. The Texans were definitely in a lot of back and forth shoot out games. Watson was 10th in attempts this year. Part of the reason he led the league in passing was he completed over 70% of his throws and it can't all be attributed to soft coverage giving him the underneath throws - he was 2nd in the league in intended air yards per attempt behind only Tom Brady and led the league in completed air yards per attempt and completed air yards per completion. He was only 15th in the league in YAC by receivers. In short Watson's number were good mainly because he is really, really good. Yes, the type of games his team played was a factor, but not as big a factor as his ability. He is a top 5 Quarterback. Rather than continuing to try and caveat his play Bills fans should be going "wow that guy is great and yet I don't need to feel jealous about it because we have one of the very few guys who is better." But Bills fans have this chip on their shoulder that everyone else's guys get respect and the Bills' guys don't and it makes them respond to things in some odd ways. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by GunnerBill

[FireChans]

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I agree with most of what you say here including that Watson is a great QB. 

 

But I would point out that the situations you highlight go a long way towards explaining Watson's great stats.  He was often playing from behind in track meet type games. There is no doubt he faced way more prevent coverage then Allen did and his numbers reflect that.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true to an extent. The Texans were definitely in a lot of back and forth shoot out games. Watson was 10th in attempts this year. Part of the reason he led the league in passing was he completed over 70% of his throws and it can't all be attributed to soft coverage giving him the underneath throws - he was 2nd in the league in intended air yards per attempt behind only Tom Brady and led the league in completed air yards per attempt and completed air yards per completion. He was only 15th in the league in YAC by receivers. In short Watson's number were good mainly because he is really, really good. Yes, the type of games his team played was a factor, but not as big a factor as his ability. He is a top 5 Quarterback. Rather than continuing to try and caveat his play Bills fans should be going "wow that guy is great and yet I don't need to feel jealous about it because we have one of the very few guys who is better." But Bills fans have this chip on their shoulder that everyone else's guys get respect and the Bills' guys don't and it makes them respond to things in some odd ways. 

GB nailed it but more importantly.

 

Who cares that he faced more prevent that Allen? 

 

He's a great QB.

[MJS]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:53 PM, dave mcbride said:

Dude, cool your jets with the hostile snark. Jeez. Allen played in all of two inclement weather games this season - KC and Baltimore. The offense scored 17 and 10 points. As for Watson, he threw 49, not 45 (http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2019-nfl-draft/2019/03/10/ball-velocity-is-bunk/ and https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=22529), but the real takeaway is that the number was wildly non-predictive of performance -- just like Allen's completion percentage in college was non-predictive. Why people have to trash one player as part of praising another player is beyond me.   They're both good players. 

Wasn't the 2nd Jets game inclement weather too? I seem to remember a couple of the regular season games being bad weather.

[NewEra]

40 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I took your suggestion up and asked one Cleveland and five Cincinnati fans if they would rather have Allen or Watson.  The Browns fan & four of the five Bengals fans said they would take Allen over Watson in a heart beat. The remaining Bengal's fan said it would be a toss up and he would be happy with either.

 

I think we may be underestimating how much Allen has moved up among non-Bills fans based on his National TV performances starting last Thanksgiving against Dallas.

 

A common theme among those I asked was that they felt like Watson had plateaued and Allen was still improving.

 

 

In the last week, I’ve asked 6 raiders fans 2 chargers and 2 Rams fans.  Of the 10 I asked 7 preferred Watson.  The two chargers fans and 1 raiders fans picked allen.  

Edited February 19, 2021 by NewEra

[CincyBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true to an extent. The Texans were definitely in a lot of back and forth shoot out games. Watson was 10th in attempts this year. Part of the reason he led the league in passing was he completed over 70% of his throws and it can't all be attributed to soft coverage giving him the underneath throws - he was 2nd in the league in intended air yards per attempt behind only Tom Brady and led the league in completed air yards per attempt and completed air yards per completion. He was only 15th in the league in YAC by receivers. In short Watson's number were good mainly because he is really, really good. Yes, the type of games his team played was a factor, but not as big a factor as his ability. He is a top 5 Quarterback. Rather than continuing to try and caveat his play Bills fans should be going "wow that guy is great and yet I don't need to feel jealous about it because we have one of the very few guys who is better." But Bills fans have this chip on their shoulder that everyone else's guys get respect and the Bills' guys don't and it makes them respond to things in some odd ways. 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact of Watson facing a lot more prevent coverage contributing to his stats.  One thing I've noticed is that while in THEORY prevent defensive schemes force teams to check down their throws in practice you see a lot of 10 - 20 yard strikes.

 

As for Bills fans having a chip on our shoulders with regards to Allen you're damn right we do.  And is it a surprise?  I've been following the NFL closely for half a century and I can't recall a QB coming into the league getting beat up on as much as Allen has.  At times it was brutal and the virulence of it was unwarranted.

 

The question of this thread is who do we think is the better QB and it came from suggestions on other threads that some fans would be willing to trade Allen for Watson straight up.  Given this why should those of us who believe Allen is the better QB be gushing over Watson?  I think we've been pretty clear we consider Watson a top 10 QB.  We've also been clear that we wouldn't trade Allen for Watson and that Allen is the better QB.

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

In the last week, I’ve asked 6 raiders fans 2 chargers and 2 Rams fans.  Of the 10 I asked 7 preferred Watson.  The two chargers fans and 1 raiders fans picked allen.  

 

Josh can give the Rams D another whooping in 4 years time. They might already have changed their minds by then

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact of Watson facing a lot more prevent coverage contributing to his stats.  One thing I've noticed is that while in THEORY prevent defensive schemes force teams to check down their throws in practice you see a lot of 10 - 20 yard strikes.

 

As for Bills fans having a chip on our shoulders with regards to Allen you're damn right we do.  And is it a surprise?  I've been following the NFL closely for half a century and I can't recall a QB coming into the league getting beat up on as much as Allen has.  At times it was brutal and the virulence of it was unwarranted.

 

The question of this thread is who do we think is the better QB and it came from suggestions on other threads that some fans would be willing to trade Allen for Watson straight up.  Given this why should those of us who believe Allen is the better QB be gushing over Watson?  I think we've been pretty clear we consider Watson a top 10 QB.  We've also been clear that we wouldn't trade Allen for Watson and that Allen is the better QB.

 

 

Because Watson is better than a top 10 QB. And now you are saying "well ignore the stats I am going to tell you that my pre-conceived idea is the right one". 

 

I wouldn't trade Allen for Watson either. I can just be objective about both.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because Watson is better than a top 10 QB. And now you are saying "well ignore the stats I am going to tell you that my pre-conceived idea is the right one". 

 

I wouldn't trade Allen for Watson either. I can just be objective about both.

 

You listed stats showing that Watson was pushing the ball down the field not that prevent defenses don't enable QB's to do that.  The prevent is designed to stop the big over the top plays but often leaves the 10 - 20 yard stuff open.  Completing 6 of 7 passes for 75 yards on your way to a late TD will give you a pretty decent yards per attempt. 

 

And how is saying Watson is a top 10 QB not being objective?  It's not like I'm saying he sucks.  I just happen to think that right now Allen is top 5 and Watson is top 10.

 

IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson.  My next 7 would be:  Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

 

[FireChans]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

 

You listed stats showing that Watson was pushing the ball down the field not that prevent defenses don't enable QB's to do that.  The prevent is designed to stop the big over the top plays but often leaves the 10 - 20 yard stuff open.  Completing 6 of 7 passes for 75 yards on your way to a late TD will give you a pretty decent yards per attempt. 

 

And how is saying Watson is a top 10 QB not being objective?  It's not like I'm saying he sucks.  I just happen to think that right now Allen is top 5 and Watson is top 10.

 

IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson.  My next 7 would be:  Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

 

?????????????????????????????

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, FireChans said:

?????????????????????????????

 

I see a lot of question marks here but is there actually a question here?

 

 

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

You listed stats showing that Watson was pushing the ball down the field not that prevent defenses don't enable QB's to do that.  The prevent is designed to stop the big over the top plays but often leaves the 10 - 20 yard stuff open.  Completing 6 of 7 passes for 75 yards on your way to a late TD will give you a pretty decent yards per attempt. 

 

And how is saying Watson is a top 10 QB not being objective?  It's not like I'm saying he sucks.  I just happen to think that right now Allen is top 5 and Watson is top 10.

 

IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson.  My next 7 would be:  Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

 

I would move him ahead of Lamar. He can be top 6.