Watson vs Allen.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The combine velocity test which is one of the most discredited numbers around was odd. And QBR is a trash stat. 

Sure QBR may be trash but it’s still a stat that’s widely disseminated when discussing QB rankings, as well as overall passing stats—that was my only point. As for velocity or W/L’s or anything else the poster brought up to support his argument, I agree it wasn’t effective. My main issue was his abrasive conduct and clearly the mods agree. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

 

Yeah, there's definitely some insecurity about Josh here.

 

I plead guilty but my insecurity isn't based on Allen not being a top 3 NFL QB.  I'm very confident that he is.  My insecurity is based on the irrational attacks on Allen by a minority of Bills fans and a large part of the national sports media since before he was even drafted.

 

And while these attacks have lessened in the face of Allen's exceptional performance this season they're still out there lurking just under the surface.  You know things like posters arguing that they would trade Watson for Allen straight up.

 

Why even debate such a thing? 

 

We should be thanking our lucky stars that Bean saw something in Allen a lot of the experts didn't.  We now have our franchise QB who is on his way to being a perennial top 3 QB in the NFL for the next decade.  We should finally get that elusive Super Bowl victory with Allen under center.

 

It's only natural that those of us who kept an open mind about Allen and saw real progress under difficult circumstances would be sensitive to criticisms popping up - particularly after the year Allen & the Bills just had.  So yea we tend to jump into these sort of threads to defend our QB.  The cool thing is that Allen has made that real easy to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I plead guilty but my insecurity isn't based on Allen not being a top 3 NFL QB.  I'm very confident that he is.  My insecurity is based on the irrational attacks on Allen by a minority of Bills fans and a large part of the national sports media since before he was even drafted.

 

And while these attacks have lessened in the face of Allen's exceptional performance this season they're still out there lurking just under the surface.  You know things like posters arguing that they would trade Watson for Allen straight up.

 

Why even debate such a thing? 

 

We should be thanking our lucky stars that Bean saw something in Allen a lot of the experts didn't.  We now have our franchise QB who is on his way to being a perennial top 3 QB in the NFL for the next decade.  We should finally get that elusive Super Bowl victory with Allen under center.

 

It's only natural that those of us who kept an open mind about Allen and saw real progress under difficult circumstances would be sensitive to criticisms popping up - particularly after the year Allen & the Bills just had.  So yea we tend to jump into these sort of threads to defend our QB.  The cool thing is that Allen has made that real easy to do.

 

 

I think there is a passive aggressiveness to the over sensitivity that comes out as "we must tear everyone else down". This isn't a personal shot at you but it has definitely shown itself on this board over the last 6 months and it is not pleasant.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a passive aggressiveness to the over sensitivity that comes out as "we must tear everyone else down". This isn't a personal shot at you but it has definitely shown itself on this board over the last 6 months and it is not pleasant.

No. Dumb ideas like Watson being a better QB than Allen are what deserve to get torn down.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a passive aggressiveness to the over sensitivity that comes out as "we must tear everyone else down". This isn't a personal shot at you but it has definitely shown itself on this board over the last 6 months and it is not pleasant.

 

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. 

 

By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down.  It's the only way to make a rational point here.

 

For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses.  Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture?

 

You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at.  This  happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons.  I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season.  But it hasn't.

 

Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.  Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

 

 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No. Dumb ideas like Watson being a better QB than Allen are what deserve to get torn down.

I mean, Watson was definitely a better QB in 2019. So really the pendulum has swung just recently.

 

Besides, you're the chief offender Mr “Deshaun Watson was made by Deandre Hopkins.”

 

lol at that take.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. 

 

By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down.  It's the only way to make a rational point here.

 

For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses.  Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture?

 

You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at.  This  happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons.  I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season.  But it hasn't.

 

Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.  Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

 

 

This. Finish. End thread.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. 

 

By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down.  It's the only way to make a rational point here.

 

For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses.  Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture?

 

You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at.  This  happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons.  I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season.  But it hasn't.

 

Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.  Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

 

 

 

I disagree with most of your post. But to be clear I do not disagree with the final sentence. 

 

 

[Rico]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. 

 

By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down.  It's the only way to make a rational point here.

 

For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses.  Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture?

 

You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at.  This  happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons.  I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season.  But it hasn't.

 

Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.  Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

 

 

Bottom line for me is that stats are for losers. When someone tries to make their point by referencing NFL stats, best to just consider the source and move on.

[C.Biscuit97]

Allen had a top 5 season this year.  He was amazing and carried his team.  He wasn’t very good his first 2 years. Hopefully, this is the start of him consistent being an elite qb.  
 

watson is off to one of the best starts in nfl history and has consistently carried his team. He’s been a top 5 qb for the last 3 years. 
 

this is the soccer mom part of the board that is really weird. I was a “hater” of Allen because I didn’t think the guy who averaged less than 200 yards passing/ game and completed under 60% of his passes wasn’t good enough.  Guess what? He went up levels I couldn’t have imagined and I’m wowed by the dude. He gets all the props in the world.  
 

but some of you are the most sensitive people are earth.  Watson isn’t being traded for Allen but to try and tear down a guy who has been as good as Watson to start his career just makes you look like haters. 
 

Let it go. Allen is really good and so is Watson.

54 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. 

 

By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down.  It's the only way to make a rational point here.

 

For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses.  Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture?

 

You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at.  This  happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons.  I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season.  But it hasn't.

 

Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.  Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

 

 

Who is tearing down Allen? Also if you switched Allen and Watson, we would laugh at saying the guy who had one really good season was as good as the guy who has been consistently good since his rookie year? 
 

again, they are both really good qbs. But it’s weird how some fans can’t be objective. Also who is ahead of Watson on your list? Because I think it’s laughable to suggest he’s not a top 5 qb. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

If you have to defend a QB by throwing out weird stats that no one uses, it's indicative of an argument without much substantiative basis.

 

Context matters.  The "weird stat" you quoted was MVP votes.  No "not good" player has ever received an MVP vote.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Context matters.  The "weird stat" you quoted was MVP votes.  No "not good" player has ever received an MVP vote.

Some folks think it happened just last year. 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Some folks think it happened just last year. 

As you’ve admirably demonstrated in this thread, some folks’ opinions aren’t that important.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Some folks think it happened just last year. 

 

I won't speak for others, but Jackson was definitely in the conversation and deserved votes.  Whether he deserved to win MVP is another matter and one I don't feel like exploring.

[colin]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Yeah.  Watson is the better QB today.  Taking him over Allen is the safe bet.  Taking Allen is looking at upside and banking on his continued development.  The one factor that would make me take Watson over Allen is how they’ve fared in crunch time in their biggest games.  I have no question that Watson will rise to the occasion in those situations.  Allen hasn’t fully taken that step yet. 

 

i don't actually think watson is better than allen today.

 

he's a bit more consistent, on account of his more developed skill, but in terms of god given ability allen stops him cold.

 

bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, better arm, better touch (allen routinely makes more difficult throws, it's just that he doesn't quite have the deep long ball skill that watson has, nor does he quite read d's as well, but that can be learned).

 

watson, allen, rogers, mahomes, and rus will are the five guys in the nfl that can take over a game and rise above.

 

we saw with mahomes in the superbowl vs our pitiful game vs his team, that once his system fails him, he falls back to earth pretty quickly.  allen's near super human ability and just dog on a bone gameness keeps him in games he shouldn't be, at least some times.

 

allen does need to get better at reading the D, not take the hero ball sacks (altho mahomes has gotten away with that due to his superior O) and get that last little bit of touch on the deep outside stuff, but he's learned more, and more quickly, than anyone else has in that time.

[teef]

5 minutes ago, Zyxw99 said:

Guys, let's make this real easy.

 

The QB's job is to score points. Specifically, score Touchdowns. The QB's job is to lead his Offense into the End zone, and win games.

 

Josh accounted for 46 Total TDs

 

Watson accounted for 36 Total TDs

 

That 10 TD difference means that Josh accounted for 70 more points on the season.

 

Do the math. 70 points / 16 games = 4.38 more points per game.

 

So in essense:

 

In 2020, Josh Allen accounted for 4.38 more points per game than Watson.

 

 

^^^^Did I just end this silly debate? I think so.

 

Why did you selectively pick and choose 1 thing? I laid out an entire gauntlet proving Josh is better. 

 

Address the totality of what I said - Don't cherrypick 1 specific thing. Look at the BIG PICTURE.

 

Deshaun Watson

0 career MVP votes

1 playoff win, no AFC title game appearances

4-12 (25%)

71 Total QBR (11th in the NFL)

36 Total TDs

8 home games in a dome (plus a road game in Indy dome) to hide his 45mph Noodle Arm

 

Josh Allen

4 career MVP votes, 2nd in voting

2 playoff wins, AFC title game appearance

15-4 (79%)

82 Total QBR (3rd in the NFL)

46 Total TDs (That's 70 more points accounted for than Watson. 70!!!)

8 home games in cold, windy Buffalo (plus a road game in Foxboro) in which Watson's 45mph Noodle Arm would be greatly exposed

 

 

 

Take EVERYTHING into account. Don't nitpick.

you would think you'd change it up a bit..

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

As you’ve admirably demonstrated in this thread, some folks’ opinions aren’t that important.

Watson is the man that Deandre Hopkins built - GoBills808

 

Couldn’t agree more LOL

[BuffaLoko]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:45 PM, Augie said:

 

It’s still a team game, and SO MUCH depends upon what surrounds them. Part of the reason Watson wants out of Houston, I’m sure.  If, at the end of his career, Josh is viewed as the better QB that means he’s been surrounded by talent and has had abundant success. I’m good with that! 

 

EDIT: I am NOT saying Josh isn’t better, just that a QB needs talent around him to reach his potential. 

 

 

.

Has been discussed from other angles, but hell there is a clear connection of Allen´s growth, with Diggs arrival to 716 area code...

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I won't speak for others, but Jackson was definitely in the conversation and deserved votes.  Whether he deserved to win MVP is another matter and one I don't feel like exploring.

I have never seen anyone compare number of MVP votes to determine who is the better QB. Until today.

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Watson is the man that Deandre Hopkins built - GoBills808

 

Couldn’t agree more LOL

What was your point here again? Oh wait

 

...

On 2/13/2021 at 9:27 AM, FireChans said:

 But if you have to tear down Watson because of some weird Josh Allen insecurity, you need to look in a mirror.

 

It's like Pats fans saying Peyton Manning sucks.  It's just embarrassing and weird.

 

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Fans do weird stat things like this when they are self-conscious of their QB.

 

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

Yeah, there's definitely some insecurity about Josh here.

 

I'd recommend spending less time feeling embarrassed by other people's opinions, personally.