Watson vs Allen.

[NewEra]

17 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, thanks to a TD that was negated after men in black shirts came onto the field...

To be fair, he also made some incredible plays to snag victory from the hands of defeat.  
 

after the refs took our points off the board, Josh had a chance to win the game several times.  He failed.  Deshaun didn’t.  
 

The refs did us wrong that game, but that doesn’t take away from what watson did and what Josh didn’t do 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

To be fair, he also made some incredible plays to snag victory from the hands of defeat.  
 

after the refs took our points off the board, Josh had a chance to win the game several times.  He failed.  Deshaun didn’t.  
 

The refs did us wrong that game, but that doesn’t take away from what watson did and what Josh didn’t do 

 

True, Watson made plays and I can't take that away from him.  But a 20-0 lead would have been it for the game.

[PrimeTime101]

4 hours ago, Rico said:

Josh scored a 37 on the Wonderlic,

Deshaun only a 20.

And?

 

There is a long standing that future HOF/HOF scored high and low on this test.

 

Its a guide for drafting that is it..

[Dr.Sack]

Watson is a great QB but I prefer Allen due to Allen’s arm strength & body type. 

[Albany,n.y.]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:49 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Again this is stupid because they are both top 5 qbs. But let’s not make up things here.

 

2020 - Houston’s defense was 3rd worst in yards (416.8) and gave up 29 points/ game. Watson accounted for 5200 (lost yards on sacks) yards of their 6004 total yards with the second worst running attack in the nfl. 
 

2018 - Buffalo averaged 298.6 yards per game, 16.8 points/ game, had the 9th best running attack, and had the 2nd best defense in terms of yards and gave up 23.4 points/ game.

 

This is crazy but if Watson had the 9th best running attack and the 2nd best defense this year, I think they win more than 4 games. Why people are bashing Watson is really strange. Both him and Allen are awesome and Watson is off to one of the best career starts of any qb in history. 

We're not bashing Watson, we're just saying Josh is better and even in his rookie year with no talent around him he still won 5 of his 11 starts, something Watson, when saddled with a bad team couldn't do. 

 

Don't be stupid (to use your word) & use the 9th best rushing #s in 2018 when you know, or should know, that Josh Allen was the leading rusher on that team.  Let's take both Allen out of the 2018 Bills rushing stats where he rushed for 631 yards on 89 attempts for a lofty 7.1 yards per carry in 10 starts and parts of another two games and Watson in 2020 where he rushed 90 times for 444 yards for a 4.93 yards per carry (while NOT being the team's leading rusher).  What you're left with is the Bills 2018 yards per carry was a pedestrian 3.56, while the Texans rushers, who had fewer carries than the 2018 Bills because they had a better receiving corps with a veteran to throw to them , ran for 4.02 yards per carry without Watson's rushing plays.   

 

To show how bad the Bills running game was in 2018 without infusing Josh Allen into the stats, the most telling thing is that none of the 2018 halfbacks were on the 2019 team.  If the Bills running game was as good as you say, why was the only guy back in 2019 FB Pat Demarco who had only 1 carry for 9 yards in 2018 and did not affect the Bills 2018 rushing stats?   

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

We're not bashing Watson, we're just saying Josh is better and even in his rookie year with no talent around him he still won 5 of his 11 starts, something Watson, when saddled with a bad team couldn't do. 

 

Don't be stupid (to use your word) & use the 9th best rushing #s in 2018 when you know, or should know, that Josh Allen was the leading rusher on that team.  Let's take both Allen out of the 2018 Bills rushing stats where he rushed for 631 yards on 89 attempts for a lofty 7.1 yards per carry in 10 starts and parts of another two games and Watson in 2020 where he rushed 90 times for 444 yards for a 4.93 yards per carry (while NOT being the team's leading rusher).  What you're left with is the Bills 2018 yards per carry was a pedestrian 3.56, while the Texans rushers, who had fewer carries than the 2018 Bills because they had a better receiving corps with a veteran to throw to them , ran for 4.02 yards per carry without Watson's rushing plays.   

 

To show how bad the Bills running game was in 2018 without infusing Josh Allen into the stats, the most telling thing is that none of the 2018 halfbacks were on the 2019 team.  If the Bills running game was as good as you say, why was the only guy back in 2019 FB Pat Demarco who had only 1 carry for 9 yards in 2018 and did not affect the Bills 2018 rushing stats?   

 

The rushing argument is spurious. The defense argument is not. It's also worth mentioning that Watson had three game winning drives blown by teammates this year with a wide open drop and two fumbles at the one yard line. I think people using "4 wins" to bash Deshaun Watson are making an argument that doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny. It is the same as the Bills 2018 run game argument. It only works if you look purely at the face value numbers. 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

We're not bashing Watson, we're just saying Josh is better and even in his rookie year with no talent around him he still won 5 of his 11 starts, something Watson, when saddled with a bad team couldn't do. 

 

Don't be stupid (to use your word) & use the 9th best rushing #s in 2018 when you know, or should know, that Josh Allen was the leading rusher on that team.  Let's take both Allen out of the 2018 Bills rushing stats where he rushed for 631 yards on 89 attempts for a lofty 7.1 yards per carry in 10 starts and parts of another two games and Watson in 2020 where he rushed 90 times for 444 yards for a 4.93 yards per carry (while NOT being the team's leading rusher).  What you're left with is the Bills 2018 yards per carry was a pedestrian 3.56, while the Texans rushers, who had fewer carries than the 2018 Bills because they had a better receiving corps with a veteran to throw to them , ran for 4.02 yards per carry without Watson's rushing plays.   

 

To show how bad the Bills running game was in 2018 without infusing Josh Allen into the stats, the most telling thing is that none of the 2018 halfbacks were on the 2019 team.  If the Bills running game was as good as you say, why was the only guy back in 2019 FB Pat Demarco who had only 1 carry for 9 yards in 2018 and did not affect the Bills 2018 rushing stats?   

 

The other thing Allen's rookie season demonstrated was that he has that special ability to make those around him better.  This is a subtle but critical aspect of a truly elite QB.  When you think about guys like Foster and the numbers they put up that year it's clear that Allen has this unique talent of lifting others up.

 

And since his rookie year is it any surprise that Beasley & Diggs each had career years and Brown went over a thousand yards?  Hell Lee Smith caught a couple of TD passes.

 

Allen is better then Watson today and that's not a knock on Watson.  Allen is a top 3 NFL QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The rushing argument is spurious. The defense argument is not. It's also worth mentioning that Watson had three game winning drives blown by teammates this year with a wide open drop and two fumbles at the one yard line. I think people using "4 wins" to bash Deshaun Watson are making an argument that doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny. It is the same as the Bills 2018 run game argument. It only works if you look purely at the face value numbers. 

 

Well to be fair how many TD passes did Bills receivers drop in Allen's rookie year including a potential game winner against Miami that would have given Allen a 6 - 5 record?  I think you underestimate just how bad the Bills 2018 offense was and that even as a raw rookie Allen won games.

 

And the four win argument with Watson has merit if I'm a Jets or Jags fan.  The fact is that unless you have talent around Watson he can still only get you so many wins.  The same is true for Allen though I think Allen gets you a couple of more wins.  Either way a bad team is still a bad team with or without Watson.

 

Frankly I hope the Jets trade the farm for Watson.  It makes the Bills life in the AFC much easier.  It will stunt any chance of the Jets getting better within the division and send Houston back to a full blown rebuild.  Now if Miami signs Watson that;s a different story.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

 

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Well to be fair how many TD passes did Bills receivers drop in Allen's rookie year including a potential game winner against Miami that would have given Allen a 6 - 5 record?  I think you underestimate just how bad the Bills 2018 offense was and that even as a raw rookie Allen won games.

 

And the four win argument with Watson has merit if I'm a Jets or Jags fan.  The fact is that unless you have talent around Watson he can still only get you so many wins.  The same is true for Allen though I think Allen gets you a couple of more wins.  Either way a bad team is still a bad team with or without Watson.

 

Frankly I hope the Jets trade the farm for Watson.  It makes the Bills life in the AFC much easier.  It will stunt any chance of the Jets getting better within the division and send Houston back to a full blown rebuild.  Now if Miami signs Watson that;s a different story.

 

 

I am not underestimating how bad the Bills weapons were in 2018. They absolutely sucked. I was the guy going into that season saying "these guys suck and it will be hard for whoever starts at QB." I was told, laughably, by some here that summer that Kelvin Benjamin was the best receiver in the AFC East. Because Bills fans enjoy a rose tinted spectacle or two.

 

I don't think Watson needs loads of talent around him to win. He does need not to have the worst Oline and the worst secondary in football. He does probably need to not end up playing almost half a season with Hanson and Coutee as two of his 3 starting receivers. The Texans were not a great team in 2019 either. They had Hopkins, Fuller and Reader but didn't have Watt for half the year and otherwise it was the same awful oline, the same atrocious defensive backfield and Watson won 11 games. Trying to make an argument that proves Watson needs a perfect situation to win based on 2020 stands up to no scrutiny.

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Watson needs loads of talent around him to win.

Are you saying Allen does?

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Are you saying Allen does?

 

No, not at all, where would anyone get that from?

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Albany,n.y. said:

We're not bashing Watson, we're just saying Josh is better and even in his rookie year with no talent around him he still won 5 of his 11 starts, something Watson, when saddled with a bad team couldn't do. 

 

Don't be stupid (to use your word) & use the 9th best rushing #s in 2018 when you know, or should know, that Josh Allen was the leading rusher on that team.  Let's take both Allen out of the 2018 Bills rushing stats where he rushed for 631 yards on 89 attempts for a lofty 7.1 yards per carry in 10 starts and parts of another two games and Watson in 2020 where he rushed 90 times for 444 yards for a 4.93 yards per carry (while NOT being the team's leading rusher).  What you're left with is the Bills 2018 yards per carry was a pedestrian 3.56, while the Texans rushers, who had fewer carries than the 2018 Bills because they had a better receiving corps with a veteran to throw to them , ran for 4.02 yards per carry without Watson's rushing plays.   

 

To show how bad the Bills running game was in 2018 without infusing Josh Allen into the stats, the most telling thing is that none of the 2018 halfbacks were on the 2019 team.  If the Bills running game was as good as you say, why was the only guy back in 2019 FB Pat Demarco who had only 1 carry for 9 yards in 2018 and did not affect the Bills 2018 rushing stats?   

So I ask the question again, would Watson have 4 wins if he had the number 2 defense like Allen did in 2018? Because if you say yes, you’re dumb. 
 

this whole thread is stupid. Allen just had a great year. Watson is off to one of the best qbs starts to a career in nfl history. They are both really good. So it is stupid that some are trying to put down Watson to prop up Allen. 
 

here’s an example that most here won’t be relate to. When I have dated a very attractive girl that I liked, I didn’t go around putting down other attractive girls to make me feel better about my relationship. It’s weird. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So I ask the question again, would Watson have 4 wins if he had the number 2 defense like Allen did in 2018? Because if you say yes, you’re dumb. 
 

this whole thread is stupid. Allen just had a great year. Watson is off to one of the best qbs starts to a career in nfl history. They are both really good. So it is stupid that some are trying to put down Watson to prop up Allen. 
 

here’s an example that most here won’t be relate to. When I have dated a very attractive girl that I liked, I didn’t go around putting down other attractive girls to make me feel better about my relationship. It’s weird. 

Oh you’re so vain!!!

[snamsnoops]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:51 PM, Billzgobowlin said:

I think Josh will take his team closer to a championship because he makes his teammates better and he wants to win so bad.  Watson is probably the superior athlete but in the end Allen will definitely be the better athlete

I'm pretty sue Josh Allen is the superior athlete. It's just he is coming around to being the better QB. Coming out of college D Watson was better but J Allen is getting better and better and is surpassing Watson do to his ceiling being much higher. Watson is a great QB, but his ceiling is lower than Josh just like his floor was higher than Allen to begin their careers!

[colin]

watson is the more skilled qb, but we all knew that.

 

i was a big watson booster coming out of clemson, he's a bit limited w arm strength and size, but is a very skilled qb, and is a dog.  allen is one of few qbs who are as much or more of a dog as watson is.

 

allen has shown that as he gains more skill and polish, i don't think there has been a more physically capable guy at the position.  he's got a shot to go down as the best to ever do it imo

[Back2Buff]

Watson is the better QB, but those 40 million dollar cap hits coming are tough.

 

I really hope Bills hold off on Allen's extension and don't have to pay 40 million a year.  Too many games this year where Allen wasn't premier.  

[BarleyNY]

36 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

Watson is the better QB, but those 40 million dollar cap hits coming are tough.

 

I really hope Bills hold off on Allen's extension and don't have to pay 40 million a year.  Too many games this year where Allen wasn't premier.  

Allen has just this upcoming season left on his rookie deal.  After that we are looking at those kinds of numbers.  Even his 5th year option price tag will be up there. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by BarleyNY

[BarleyNY]

53 minutes ago, colin said:

watson is the more skilled qb, but we all knew that.

 

i was a big watson booster coming out of clemson, he's a bit limited w arm strength and size, but is a very skilled qb, and is a dog.  allen is one of few qbs who are as much or more of a dog as watson is.

 

allen has shown that as he gains more skill and polish, i don't think there has been a more physically capable guy at the position.  he's got a shot to go down as the best to ever do it imo

Yeah.  Watson is the better QB today.  Taking him over Allen is the safe bet.  Taking Allen is looking at upside and banking on his continued development.  The one factor that would make me take Watson over Allen is how they’ve fared in crunch time in their biggest games.  I have no question that Watson will rise to the occasion in those situations.  Allen hasn’t fully taken that step yet. 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, SGA50 said:

 

 

Completely wrong. 

 

Everything you said is wrong.

 

Watson is absolutely NOT the better QB today. That's ludicrous, absurd, preposterous, asinine, there are a hundred words for it.

 

Imagine being this wrong.

 

 

Arm Velocity is a skill.

 

Josh 62mph

Watson <50mph

 

Josh is the more skilled QB, the better QB...and any intelligent person knows that.

 

While the arm strength thing continues to be pretty meaningless to me - that combine number has a really bad correlation with success - I generally agree with this post though not your hyperbolic tone. 

 

In 2020, the most recent evidence we have in front of us, Josh Allen was better than Deshaun Watson. 

 

Allen was a top 3 Quarterback. Watson in my view was #4 but certainly no worse than #6, but there was a little gap between that top 3 Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers and the next 3 Watson, Wilson, Brady. There was then an even bigger gap between #6 and #7 IMO.

Edited February 16, 2021 by GunnerBill

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, SGA50 said:

 

 

Watson - 0 MVP votes in 4 seasons

 

Allen - 4 MVP votes in 3 seasons

 

 

Let me know when Watson receives 1, *ONE*, MVP vote

Posts like this make me think Allen is not good. 
 

Fans do weird stat things like this when they are self-conscious of their QB.