Watson vs Allen.

[colin]

watson is a sick qb, it's just that Josh is better.  Josh was raw and it showed, but he's more talented and that also shows.  watson does great things on offense but came out of college at a top skill level.  Josh's skills have improved month to month and he's much much better now than when he started, and is going to get even better.

 

so, watson in 2018 >> Josh allen 2018

Watson 2019 > josh allen 2019 (and it was kinda close, at least at times)

Watson 2020 < Josh allen 2020

Watson of the future << Josh allen of the future

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

 

How many Texans games did you actually watch in 2020?

 

Did you really watch him play? Or just highlights of him and read some box scores?

 

I sincerely doubt u even watched 3 games of Watson in 2020. Why would a Bills fans watch Texans games unless they were playing on national TV?

 

 

 

 

Question - Do you value the word of NFL coaches and defensive coordinators? 

I’ve stated this in this thread already.....which you’ve obviously read several times through. On multiple accounts.  See ya on your next username buh bye

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Do u value the word of NFL coaches and defensive coordinators, especially those who actually faced Watson?

 

Yes or no.

👋🏻 

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Here is where I come in and obliterate you with real quotes and analysis of Watson's play from NFL coaches and defensive coordinators who gameplanned for Watson all week and faced him.

https://theathletic.com/2188910/2020/11/12/mike-sandos-quarterback-tiers-revisited/

 

The teams with Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers and Brees are averaging 30.9 offensive points per game. Deshaun Watson’s Houston Texans are averaging 24.5, which ranks tied for 20th in this offensively charged season. Those other teams have a combined 26-7 record. Watson’s Texans are 2-6 and have fired their coach. Those questioning whether Watson belonged in the top tier could point to the Texans’ overall struggles and suggest a true top-tier quarterback might overcome them better. That could be underestimating the challenges existing in Houston, which included a brutal opening schedule of games against Kansas City, Baltimore and Pittsburgh followed more recently by games against Tennessee and Green Bay.

There is precedent for a highly regarded young quarterback such as Watson suffering through team tumult and failing to lift his team out of it in the absence of sufficient help. Peyton Manning’s Indianapolis Colts posted a 6-10 record in his fourth season thanks largely to a defense that ranked last in points allowed. Watson is in his fourth season. The Texans fired their coach, Bill O’Brien, following an 0-4 start. They rank last in defensive expected points added (EPA). Manning’s Colts fired their coach, Jim Mora, after the season. Indy did have continuity and direction through future Hall of Fame general manager Bill Polian. Watson and the Texans do not appear as fortunate.

“He has definitely gotten better, but I don’t feel like he’s a guy that can totally carry them, where we are like, ‘Oh my God, you’ve gotta worry about him,'” a defensive coordinator said. “The mobility, after it breaks down, he can run and hurt you, but as far as a pure passer, he is not (Tier 1) yet.”

Coaches and evaluators are interested in seeing whether the next coaching staff in Houston installs a more enterprising passing game. They have wondered whether O’Brien held back because of a conservative nature or because he wasn’t sure whether Watson could handle more. The Texans are passing more frequently on early downs, early in games since the coaching change.

“When you watch him, you see elite toughness, you see elite leadership, but you don’t see elite accuracy or a guy who gets the ball out quick,” an evaluaor said after the Texans’ 0-4 start. “As an outsider or a fan, you look at it and say, ‘Oh, he is scrambling around, he still makes that throw, he is dynamite.’ As an evaluator, I am thinking, ‘Why didn’t he get that out earlier?’ It does cause some concern.”

Wilson holds the ball longer before throwing on average than Watson does.

“Russell Wilson scrambles and makes tremendous decisions because he knows where guys are going to be and he makes a great throw — and he makes the critical throws,” this coach said. “Deshaun Watson looks surprised when he has to scramble, and then he’s just scrambling to find somebody, not necessarily having an idea of what he is trying to get to, and that is the difference to me. Not saying I would not like to have him or he is not talented. There’s just a difference with the true Tier 1 guys.”

 

 

 

GAME. SET. MATCH.

 

Ladies and gents, that's how you win/end a football debate.

✌️

Yep.  You win

[teef]

This thread is ***** awesome. 

[TheFunPolice]

I think Josh Allen is better than Watson, but it's not by a lot. But enough to make a big difference over a career. 

 

I'll say it right now: Josh Allen is going to win a Super Bowl with the Bills. He will play for a long time, barring crazy injuries. 

 

What sets Allen apart is his insane level of hunger to improve. He's said many times that Tom Brady is the guy he studies, and I see a lot of Brady in him, in terms of his approach to training and improving. Allen has incredible discipline and trains like crazy. Just look at his improvement in a couple of short years, and he will continue to get better. 

 

As much as I am sick of Brady, he is openly showing young QBs how to do what he has done, in terms of longevity and success. Few have the determination and willpower to follow, though. Allen might. 

 

The day after the Super Bowl Brady was talking with coaches about how to improve next year. I see Allen wired a similar way: super competitive, insanely hard worker, and trains like a madman. 

 

Allen is already playing smarter, taking fewer big hits, relying on his physical abilities to run a lot less, and picking and choosing his spots. He was a pocket passer this season, tossing pretty looking passes right on target. That's a mile away from even last season, let alone his rookie year. 

 

If Allen plays this way and has this level of fire in him, he could easily play at a top 5 level into his late 30's early 40's. 

 

The key for the Bills is to keep investing in the OL and offense. Keep Allen protected. Keep him healthy and the Bills will be in the mix just about every year for the next 15 years. 

 

 

[foreboding]

Watson has a legit gripe. I mean, look at what they did to that team. BUT, this was a previous regime and I think you have to give the new guys a chance.

Stafford, totally different deal. He suffered with that ***** org for a decade plus.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Wow, so much wrong here.

 

1) Derrick Henry does NOT make Tannehill. Go and take a look at Henry's production in the 1st half of 2019 with Mariota at QB. Then look at Derrick Henry since Tannehill took over at QB. We are in Year 2021 - The Pass opens up the Run, not the other way around. Tannehill makes Henry way more than vice versa. Tannehill's ultra-efficient and accurate passing opens up the entire Titans offense and gives Henry running lanes. Derrick Henry's production took off the moment Tannehill was inserted into the starting lineup. Not a coincidence. To say that a RB "makes" a QB in 2021 is ludicrous and impossible. No RB "makes" his QB. Absurd statement.

 

2) Tannehill and Watson are VERY close. They are both in the same tier. You could even argue Tannehill is better. Watson's strength is as a straight dropback shotgun passer and freelancing outside of structure. There is no guarantee that he would thrive as a play-action passer like Tannehill has. This isn't Madden. Some QBs don't like turning their back to the defense (see Big Ben, he hates play-action and wants to see the Defense from shotgun).

Honestly, this is so stupid, it’s really not worth responding to.

 

But just review Tannehill’s playoff games and then tell me Henry doesn’t make him. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TannRy00.htm  He averages 133 yards/ game.  Derrick Henry averages 126 yards/ game as a Rb!  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HenrDe00.htm
 

but I’m sure Tannehill with put the same production with David Johnson, Duke Johnson, and Carlos Hyde. And I’m sure Watson won’t benefit from playing with a former top 10 pick at receiver, one of the best young wrs in the nfl, a superior o line, and Jennu smith. 
 

it’s a Bills board but you don’t have to be stupid. Watson is off to one of the best starts in nfl history for a qb. He was far better than Allen until this year. The fact that Allen closed the gap as much as he did is a testament to how much he improved. So there can be a debate there.

 

but if you are arguing that Watson and Tannehill are even close, you’re not worth debating because it’s an idiotic position to take. Tannehill owes half of his contract to Henry. 

[TheFunPolice]

Stafford is really going to surprise some people, I think. For the first time he has a real coach who is actually good at what he does, and a pretty good roster of talent on offense and defense. 

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, foreboding said:

Watson has a legit gripe. I mean, look at what they did to that team. BUT, this was a previous regime and I think you have to give the new guys a chance.

Stafford, totally different deal. He suffered with that ***** org for a decade plus.

I understand you point but they hired a church chaplain to run that team and just lied about letting him be involved in the process. 
 

should he just waste his prime hoping that team becomes less stupid? If this was the Bills and this same stuff happened to Allen, I would support him doing the same thing as Watson. Your careers are so short and these teams don’t have loyalty. 

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Those selective stats from such a tiny sample size tells you absolutely nothing. The fact that you believe that a RB, any RB "makes" his QB in Year 2021 - tells me you don't really understand modern day football. It is literally impossible for a RB to make his QB in today's game. The Passing game opens up the Running game, not vice versa. Derrick Henry would not have even gotten his current contract if Tannehill didn't take over for Mariota and start posting consistently high Passer Ratings, unlocking the entire O.

 

In the Patriots-Titans playoff game in 2019, Bill Belichick literally conceded the run to Henry, while focusing on taking away Tannehill's big plays. Bill Belichick game planned to stop Ryan Tannehill, NOT Derrick Henry. That should tell you something. Belichick literally told you "I am far more concerned with Tannehill beating us than Henry beating us". 

 

Watson and Tannehill are about the same. Same QB tier, very very close, could argue either way. They are VERY close. This is real football, not Madden.

While I’ve deemed you unworthy of debate, I can’t help but wonder how you can use and article in the athletic to “win a debate” that focuses on a small sample size of 8 games.....yet call someone else out for using a small sample size to to prove a point.

 

If 8 games can tell you that much about a QB, what does 3 years tell you?

 

 

again....what is your point? To tell us that Deshaun Watson isn’t very good?  Everyone on the board has agreed, that Josh Allen is better.  You’re just mad because other people think deshaun Watson is a top 6 QB?  What is your point now?  
 

Laying in wait for 2 weeks after getting banned for the 5th time.  You couldn’t wait to get back to this thread so you can show everyone up.  Great job.....😂

[foreboding]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I understand you point but they hired a church chaplain to run that team and just lied about letting him be involved in the process. 
 

should he just waste his prime hoping that team becomes less stupid? If this was the Bills and this same stuff happened to Allen, I would support him doing the same thing as Watson. Your careers are so short and these teams don’t have loyalty. 

Agreed, I do not blame him, but it isn't a great look and his new team is going to be hamstrung for future capital.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

 

That ignores a critical stat...one that exposes his fatal flaw: Sack Rate

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_perc_career.htm

 

Tell me sir, who is ranked #151 on that list with an absurdly high 9.05% Sack Rate? Sacks are drive killers. O-Lines don't allow sacks; O-Lines allow pressure - What the QB does afterwards determines if that pressure is converted into a sack or not. Watson will always have a ridiculously high pressure-to-Sack conversion rate. He will protect his stats by taking a sack and killing a drive, rather than simply throwing the ball away for an incompletion. All of this attests to the fact that he doesn't get the ball out fast when it's there and when he needs to.

 

This is just not true. He does take a lot of sacks but it is because he holds the ball too long looking for a play at times. He is not a guy who takes sacks to protect stats. That screams of a statement of a guy who doesn't watch him. 

 

Holding the ball too long when he should throw it away is a very legit criticism but is 100% not because he is protecting stats. He does get pressured a crazy amount and he get frustrated just dumping off and tries to hold it and force the big play which means rushers get home. But he is still a top 5 Quarterback.

Edited March 3, 2021 by GunnerBill