Watson vs Allen.

[C.Biscuit97]

13 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. 

 

The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit.  I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this.  To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable.

 

Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12.  He played well and was not the cause of their bad record  I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson.

 

I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

 

He has been borderline great since his first start. If the Bills had Watson in 2019, they might have gone to the SB. The fact that Allen has even made this strange thread a debate is a testament to how much he improved this offseason. Watson has been really good for 3 years and Allen had an elite season. They are both really good. 

[Jay_Fixit]

2 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

I’m just amused at the number of fans that feel they need to 💩 on Watson in order to praise Allen .... maybe they don’t really follow the game of football. 

Imagine pooping on a top 4 NFL QB for no reason at all.

 

For the record, I’m not sure who’s better. But if the Bills had Watson instead of Allen, there are at least 28 starting QB’s that would be worse than that.

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

Flashback one year ago in the biggest game of the year, while one was playing hero ball and failing, one was bouncing off two blitz era at the same time, leading his team to a victory.  We didn’t see Watson do that this last season because his team was so bad, he rarely had the chance.

 

We’ve known Watson was a great QB since his rookie season.  He came out of the nfl womb dominating.  We KNOW he is great already.  Last seasons “stats” mean little to nothing imo.  Whether it’s garbage time stats or crunch time stats.....he’s great regardless of what his stats are.  
 

What is the argument?  Who is better?  One was a great QB on a bad team.  One was a great QB on a very good team. The year before, when both teams were on similar levels, 1 played a good half and a bad half in the same game. They’re both great qbs. Allen had a better 2020.  Watson has had a better career.
 

it’s as if, now that we have a great QB, we have to compare him to every other great qb and while doing so, trash the opposing great QB.

 

Here are the stats for Allen & Watson in their fist playoff games. For both QB's their first payoff game was in their 2nd NFL season.

 

Allen: Lost to the Texans in OT 22 - 19

Watson: Lost to the Colts 21 - 7.  The score was 21 - 0 until 11 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

 

Allen was 24/46 for 264 yards no TD's & no INT's;  had 9 caries for 92 yards with 1 lost fumble;  caught 1 pass for 16 yard TD; QB rating = 69.5

Total yards = 372;  Total TD's = 1;  Total TO's = 1

 

Watson was 29/49 for 235 yards 1 TD & 1 INT;  had 8 - 76 yards;  QB rating = 69.7

Total yards = 311;  Total TD's = 1;  Total TO's = 1

 

Allen played just as well in his first playoff game as Watson did in his. 

 

And Watson did NOT come out of the NFL womb "dominating".  Mahomes came out of the NFL womb dominating.  So did Burrow & Herbert who both got off to better starts then Watson did and they did it with inferior offensive talent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

I’m just amused at the number of fans that feel they need to 💩 on Watson in order to praise Allen .... maybe they don’t really follow the game of football. 

 

Who is pooping on Watson?  Is it because some of us have him as the 6th or 7th best QB in the NFL?  That sounds more like constipation then pooping.

 

And given that the title of this thread is Watson vs Allen how the hell are we supposed to debate the point without actually comparing the stats and play of the two QB's? 

 

And again for the record, people aren't trashing Watson in saying hat Allen is the better QB now.  We agree that Watson is a great QB. We agree that Watson is a top 10 QB. How is this in any way crapping on Watson?

 

Our point is that while Watson is a top 10 QB Allen is now a top 5 QB. And that we would not trade Allen for Watson straight up.  Now I would trade Baker Mayfield for Watson straight up but that isn't the title of this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Here are the stats for Allen & Watson in their fist playoff games. For both QB's their first payoff game was in their 2nd NFL season.

 

Allen: Lost to the Texans in OT 22 - 19

Watson: Lost to the Colts 21 - 7.  The score was 21 - 0 until 11 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

 

Allen was 24/46 for 264 yards no TD's & no INT's;  had 9 caries for 92 yards with 1 lost fumble;  caught 1 pass for 16 yard TD; QB rating = 69.5

Total yards = 372;  Total TD's = 1;  Total TO's = 1

 

Watson was 29/49 for 235 yards 1 TD & 1 INT;  had 8 - 76 yards;  QB rating = 69.7

Total yards = 311;  Total TD's = 1;  Total TO's = 1

 

Allen played just as well in his first playoff game as Watson did in his. 

 

And Watson did NOT come out of the NFL womb "dominating".  Mahomes came out of the NFL womb dominating.  So did Burrow & Herbert who both got off to better starts then Watson did and they did it with inferior offensive talent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you’re point is to compare each guys first playoff games?  Congrats.  How about you compare their first 2 seasons?  Have fun with that.  Maybe you can use a microscope and dissect 3 games in two seasons to prove that Allen was just as good in his first 2 years as Watson was. 
 

Please.....explain your point.  are you saying that Watson hasn’t been a great QB since his rookie season?  Do you not like my choice of words “came out of the womb dominating since day 1”?  He had a great rookie season and has been great ever since.  Why are you so butt hurt by that?

 

Other than talking trash about one QB in order to prop another up, I don’t have a clue what your point is.

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

 

5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He has been borderline great since his first start. If the Bills had Watson in 2019, they might have gone to the SB. The fact that Allen has even made this strange thread a debate is a testament to how much he improved this offseason. Watson has been really good for 3 years and Allen had an elite season. They are both really good. 

Just make sure you don’t use the words “We’ve known Watson was a great QB since his rookie season.  He came out of the nfl womb dominating”.  If you do, this guy will let you know that only Mahomes has done that.  😂

 

 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

And Watson did NOT come out of the NFL womb "dominating".  Mahomes came out of the NFL womb dominating.  So did Burrow & Herbert who both got off to better starts then Watson did and they did it with inferior offensive talent.

 

 

Watson first 6 starts: 266 yards per game, 62%, 18 TDs, 7 INTs, passer rating of 103.6 (HOU went 3-3)

Herbert first 6 starts: 303 yards per game, 67%, 15 TDs, 5 INTs, passer rating of 107.2 (LAC went 1-5)

Burrow first 6 starts: 269 yards per game, 65%, 6 TDs, 4 INTs, passer rating of 83.2 (CIN went 1-4-1)

 

So while statistically the number somewhat bear you out on Herbert they don't at all on Burrow and one might say "well Herbert was playing in a lot of garbage time" you know, seeing as that is the reason you think Watson threw for so many yards this year. None of which means I don't rate Herbert and Burrow highly. They both showed me a lot as rookies, but so did Watson. He was on fire in 2017 before his ACL injury (which is why I picked 6 starts... that is all Watson had as a rookie due to injury). He torched the Seahawks in Seattle when that was still a thing people didn't do. 

 

The problem you have is you are sticking resolutely to this "top 10" nonsense. Deshaun Watson is a lot better than top 10. There are 6 guys that have clearly separated and while there is some separation between the top 3 and the second 3 in my mind and Allen is in the first tier and Watson the 2nd, the separation to 7-10 is very clear and you are the only I can still see disputing that. 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Watson first 6 starts: 266 yards per game, 62%, 18 TDs, 7 INTs, passer rating of 103.6 (HOU went 3-3)

Herbert first 6 starts: 303 yards per game, 67%, 15 TDs, 5 INTs, passer rating of 107.2 (LAC went 1-5)

Burrow first 6 starts: 269 yards per game, 65%, 6 TDs, 4 INTs, passer rating of 83.2 (CIN went 1-4-1)

 

So while statistically the number somewhat bear you out on Herbert they don't at all on Burrow and one might say "well Herbert was playing in a lot of garbage time" you know, seeing as that is the reason you think Watson threw for so many yards this year. None of which means I don't rate Herbert and Burrow highly. They both showed me a lot as rookies, but so did Watson. He was on fire in 2017 before his ACL injury (which is why I picked 6 starts... that is all Watson had as a rookie due to injury). He torched the Seahawks in Seattle when that was still a thing people didn't do. 

 

The problem you have is you are sticking resolutely to this "top 10" nonsense. Deshaun Watson is a lot better than top 10. There are 6 guys that have clearly separated and while there is some separation between the top 3 and the second 3 in my mind and Allen is in the first tier and Watson the 2nd, the separation to 7-10 is very clear and you are the only I can still see disputing that. 

 

 

Are you going to tell me that the talent Watson had around him his first couple of years wasn't much better then what Herbert & Burrow had?

 

In my rankings I have Watson at #7 and Allen at #3 - where do you have them?  And are we so different that you get pissed off about it?  Man it's odd that on a Bills message board you show more passion for Watson then you do for almost any Bills player.

 

[CincyBillsFan]

37 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you’re point is to compare each guys first playoff games?  Congrats.  How about you compare their first 2 seasons?  Have fun with that.  Maybe you can use a microscope and dissect 3 games in two seasons to prove that Allen was just as good in his first 2 years as Watson was. 
 

Please.....explain your point.  are you saying that Watson hasn’t been a great QB since his rookie season?  Do you not like my choice of words “came out of the womb dominating since day 1”?  He had a great rookie season and has been great ever since.  Why are you so butt hurt by that?

 

Other than talking trash about one QB in order to prop another up, I don’t have a clue what your point is.

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

 

Just make sure you don’t use the words “We’ve known Watson was a great QB since his rookie season.  He came out of the nfl womb dominating”.  If you do, this guy will let you know that only Mahomes has done that.  😂

 

 

 

I compared their first playoff game because you pointed out how "bad" Allen did in his.  I think you called it "hero ball". Meanwhile you're telling us that Watson came out of the NFL womb a super star.  Well he wasn't a super star in his first playoff game in his 2nd season was he? 

 

And I love your passion in defending Watson on a Bills Message Board. I don't get it but hey the passion is impressive.

 

Oh and for the record after this last season I had Allen as my #3 QB and Watson as my #7. So where would you put them? I get you & others disagree with me here but are we really that far apart? 

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Are you going to tell me that the talent Watson had around him his first couple of years wasn't much better then what Herbert & Burrow had?

 

In my rankings I have Watson at #7 and Allen at #3 - where do you have them?  And are we so different that you get pissed off about it?  Man it's odd that on a Bills message board you show more passion for Watson then you do for almost any Bills player.

 

 

I have Allen #3 and Watson #4. 

 

I don't show more passion for Watson than any Bills player that is utter nonsense. Such a cheap argument to throw out. Stefon Diggs is my favourite player in the entire league, there is no shortage of passion here. It is just that my feelings about football players are entirely based on what they put on the field. I don't decide how I value a player by the logo on the helmet. 

[NewEra]

48 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I compared their first playoff game because you pointed out how "bad" Allen did in his.  I think you called it "hero ball". Meanwhile you're telling us that Watson came out of the NFL womb a super star.  Well he wasn't a super star in his first playoff game in his 2nd season was he? 

 

And I love your passion in defending Watson on a Bills Message Board. I don't get it but hey the passion is impressive.

 

Oh and for the record after this last season I had Allen as my #3 QB and Watson as my #7. So where would you put them? I get you & others disagree with me here but are we really that far apart? 

“While one was playing hero ball and failing.”  I’m sorry, did you happen to see something different?

 

watson has been a star in this league since his first season....was he not?  If you disagree, than you don’t know much about football, sorry to tell ya.  

 

I spoke nothing but the truth.....and that hurts you.....because I’m a bills fan on a bills website that doesn’t have 17’s nuts in my mouth 24/7, so much that I can’t defend other great players in the league when others seem to have to put them down in order to put our QB on a pedestal.
There ARE other great players.....and Watson is one of them.  He HAS BEEN one of them since his rookie season.  
 

what have I said that is incorrect?  Does a bad first playoff game mean that he wasn’t a league sensation since his rookie year?  That seems to be what you’re hanging your entire “argument” on.  

Onto the rankings you asked for:  Brady is the goat and just played a good game vs the same D that allen couldn’t do anything against......so I’m not sure where to rank him, so I’ll leave him out.  

 

Mahomes 1, Rodgers 2, Allen 3, Watson 4 Wilson 5 are my top 5.  I rank the next group based on who I would want as my QB:  Herbert, Burrow, Murray, Tannehill, Lamar I suppose....

[CincyBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have Allen #3 and Watson #4. 

 

I don't show more passion for Watson than any Bills player that is utter nonsense. Such a cheap argument to throw out. Stefon Diggs is my favourite player in the entire league, there is no shortage of passion here. It is just that my feelings about football players are entirely based on what they put on the field. I don't decide how I value a player by the logo on the helmet. 

 

Fair enough on Allen & Watson.  We're not very far apart.

 

For me I consider BOTH who the player played for and how well they play.  I will always have more passion talking about Andre Reed or Eric Moulds then I ever will about Jerry Rice.

 

Tom Brady is the greatest QB to ever play the game but I'll never get very excited about that fact given the logo that was on his helmet for so many years.

 

But hey, it's a big diverse world out there and we're all entitled to our own version of fandom. 

 

 

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have Allen #3 and Watson #4. 

 

I don't show more passion for Watson than any Bills player that is utter nonsense. Such a cheap argument to throw out. Stefon Diggs is my favourite player in the entire league, there is no shortage of passion here. It is just that my feelings about football players are entirely based on what they put on the field. I don't decide how I value a player by the logo on the helmet. 

I think he was yelling at me 😚

 

He doesn’t get how fans on a Bills board can defend other great players.....

 

it’s not even about “defending” them. I’m just stating facts.  Watson has been great out of the gates.....and you get all butt hurt and point out one game.....as if that one game makes him “not great”.  Only Mahomes has been great you say.....bwhahaha.  Oh man.  
 

I defend players from nonsensical flames.  I state what I feel to be the truth.  I watch and know more about sports than 99% of the population.  I’m in several different sports text threads that blow up every day, all day.   One is about Minnesota sports.  One is about Bay Area sports.  Another about KC sports.  Another about dallas sports.  Another about Carolina sports.  Watch, analyze and critique sports is what I do.  When people talk what I deem nonsense, I state how I feel about the subject, even if that means defending a QB on another team while on a Bills message board.  I’m not that insecure.  Feel free to disagree with me about it.  
 

edit:  oops....apparently he was calling you out for being too “passionate” about a non Bill too.  My bad!

Edited February 22, 2021 by NewEra

[CincyBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

“While one was playing hero ball and failing.”  I’m sorry, did you happen to see something different?

 

watson has been a star in this league since his first season....was he not?  If you disagree, than you don’t know much about football, sorry to tell ya.  

 

I spoke nothing but the truth.....and that hurts you.....because I’m a bills fan on a bills website that doesn’t have 17’s nuts in my mouth 24/7, so much that I can’t defend other great players in the league when others seem to have to put them down in order to put our QB on a pedestal.
There ARE other great players.....and Watson is one of them.  He HAS BEEN one of them since his rookie season.  
 

what have I said that is incorrect?  Does a bad first playoff game mean that he wasn’t a league sensation since his rookie year?  That seems to be what you’re hanging your entire “argument” on.  

Onto the rankings you asked for:  Brady is the goat and just played a good game vs the same D that allen couldn’t do anything against......so I’m not sure where to rank him, so I’ll leave him out.  

 

Mahomes 1, Rodgers 2, Allen 3, Watson 4 Wilson 5 are my top 5.  I rank the next group based on who I would want as my QB:  Herbert, Burrow, Murray, Tannehill, Lamar I suppose....

 

What I saw from Allen in his first playoff game was a young QB that played very well for most of the game but struggled mightily for most of the 4th quarter. But Allen was able to get it together at the end to force the game into OT and he was one missed block from winning the game in OT.  Calling out the "hero ball" was a cheap shot IMO.

 

Watson has not been a star in this league from his first season.  He showed flashes of greatness and he clearly showed that he could be a franchise QB but IMO he didn't match the early performances of Mahomes and Marino.  And the fact that we disagree on this point doesn't make either one of us any more or less knowledgeable about football.  It's nothing more then a difference of opinion.

 

A bad playoff game in his second season is in indication to me that Watson was not a superstar his first two years.  He as still growing into a top notch QB.  And of course the same could be said about Allen. 

 

I have no trouble ranking Brady in the top 5 QB's.  He just led his team to a Super Bowl championship.  And for someone who self proclaims themselves a football expert are you seriously comparing how Allen did versus KC to how Brady did versus KC?  You do now that transitive properties do not apply to football.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Fair enough on Allen & Watson.  We're not very far apart.

 

For me I consider BOTH who the player played for and how well they play.  I will always have more passion talking about Andre Reed or Eric Moulds then I ever will about Jerry Rice.

 

Tom Brady is the greatest QB to ever play the game but I'll never get very excited about that fact given the logo that was on his helmet for so many years.

 

But hey, it's a big diverse world out there and we're all entitled to our own version of fandom. 

 

See I still think we are far apart because I think the top 6 are quite obviously ahead of everyone else. I just don't see a rationale for having Watson outside that group. 

 

On the bolded, completely agreed. I get everyone's fandom is not like mine. But I can't be any other way. I am not a big emotional person. 

[GoBills808]

im just glad we can all agree Allen is better than Watson

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

What I saw from Allen in his first playoff game was a young QB that played very well for most of the game but struggled mightily for most of the 4th quarter. But Allen was able to get it together at the end to force the game into OT and he was one missed block from winning the game in OT.  Calling out the "hero ball" was a cheap shot IMO.

 

Watson has not been a star in this league from his first season.  He showed flashes of greatness and he clearly showed that he could be a franchise QB but IMO he didn't match the early performances of Mahomes and Marino.  And the fact that we disagree on this point doesn't make either one of us any more or less knowledgeable about football.  It's nothing more then a difference of opinion.

 

A bad playoff game in his second season is in indication to me that Watson was not a superstar his first two years.  He as still growing into a top notch QB.  And of course the same could be said about Allen. 

 

I have no trouble ranking Brady in the top 5 QB's.  He just led his team to a Super Bowl championship.  And for someone who self proclaims themselves a football expert are you seriously comparing how Allen did versus KC to how Brady did versus KC?  You do now that transitive properties do not apply to football.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’ve wasted enough of my day with this and there’s no need to continue.  
 

agree to disagree.  

[Rico]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:57 PM, CincyBillsFan said:

 

What I saw from Allen in his first playoff game was a young QB that played very well for most of the game but struggled mightily for most of the 4th quarter. But Allen was able to get it together at the end to force the game into OT and he was one missed block from winning the game in OT.  Calling out the "hero ball" was a cheap shot IMO.

 

Watson has not been a star in this league from his first season.  He showed flashes of greatness and he clearly showed that he could be a franchise QB but IMO he didn't match the early performances of Mahomes and Marino.  And the fact that we disagree on this point doesn't make either one of us any more or less knowledgeable about football.  It's nothing more then a difference of opinion.

 

A bad playoff game in his second season is in indication to me that Watson was not a superstar his first two years.  He as still growing into a top notch QB.  And of course the same could be said about Allen. 

 

I have no trouble ranking Brady in the top 5 QB's.  He just led his team to a Super Bowl championship.  And for someone who self proclaims themselves a football expert are you seriously comparing how Allen did versus KC to how Brady did versus KC?  You do now that transitive properties do not apply to football.

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO I was shocked with Watson's 1st season before he got hurt, he far exceeded my expectations. Never been quite as impressed with him after that, though I do think he's very good.

[Rico]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:51 AM, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

I’m just amused at the number of fans that feel they need to 💩 on Watson in order to praise Allen .... maybe they don’t really follow the game of football. 

I'm amused by the number of Bills fans that get bent out of shape over a player on another team getting slammed.

 

P.S. ***** Deshaun Watson.

[Augie]

On 2/22/2021 at 6:10 PM, GoBills808 said:

im just glad we can all agree Allen is better than Watson

 

I will ALSO bet that we all LOVE Allen, and we pray that Watson finds his way to the NFC.   

[Eastport bills]

Just the fact Watson has had 2 ACLs makes Josh the choice. When Watson had all his weapons he managed an overtime playoff win against a Buffalo team that had little offensive talent and a 2nd year QB in his 1st playoffs. He underachieved badly last season while Josh was an legit MVP candidate. Josh has better arm talent and is a better leader, with 2 tough playoff wins against teams with great talent, there's no question it's Josh.