Watson vs Allen.

[RaoulDuke79]

I like then both, but it's not all about x's and o's. Obviously I'm biased, but Josh "fits" in Buffalo. I think anyone on the team would run through a wall for him and vice versa. With that being said. Houston got rid of their best WR before the season and we brought in ours. Although QB is the centerpiece, it takes a team to win.

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes, he played great amidst the worst of circumstances, but if you are objectively framing his season, there's NO REASON to push 2020 as Watson's best season or anything close to it.

 

It's not just the 7 TDs he scored in blowout losses/garbage time.  It's also the 9 TDs he scored in 3 of his 4 wins against the 2 worst defenses in the league of Detroit and Jacksonville.

 

That's 16 of his 36 TDs.

 

Good year for Watson.  Bravo for doing what he could with that team... but can we please stop presenting it as some kind of magical year that's a notch on his belt towards the HOF?

 

Read what I wrote.  That's not what I said even though it's clearly what you're hoping I said.

Aw man he scored 9 TD’s against bad defenses in 3 games?

 

I’d cut him.

[Chaos]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:06 PM, Augie said:

 

Sorry, you went from a declaration, “Allen is better”, to a supposition, “If, at the end of his career....”.  Can’t have it both ways and pretend you proved your point. 

 

If Peyton Manning played his entire career with the Jags, they might have been slightly better as a team, but he would NOT have had the same career or be seen as the sure fire HOF QB he was. 

 

What surrounds a QB matters (players, coaches and FO), and can help define a career.  I don’t blame Watson for wanting out, or at least better talent (on and off the field) surrounding him.  Russell Wilson said it himself on Dan Patrick this week.....his “legacy” rides on what surrounds him. 

 

EDIT: I am NOT saying Josh isn’t better. I’m just making a bigger point about how important surrounding talent and coaching is. You have also omitted part of my quote, which could possibly lead to being misleading. 

 

 

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I was specifically replying to your @end if career “ assertion.  Reading comprehension is important.  

[transplantbillsfan]

46 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Aw man he scored 9 TD’s against bad defenses in 3 games?

 

I’d cut him.

 

Way to completely twist what I said.

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Way to completely twist what I said.

I’d like you’d to sit in “transplanttexansfan’s” shoes and try to imagine what you’re arguing. 
 

Would you listen to ANY argument about how many of Josh’s TD’s came against bad teams that means they are worth less and are unimpressive? What about when they ran up the score on teams aka the other side of garbage time? No. Because it’s an inane point that goes well beyond the point of rationality. 
 

Similar to “QB X is great because he is 10/11 for 120 yards when throwing to the left hash in the third quarter,” the argument “QB X WASN’T that great because he had 9 TD’s in 3 games but he played bad teams” is inanity bordering on complete nonsense.

 

I mean. Come on.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I’d like you’d to sit in “transplanttexansfan’s” shoes and try to imagine what you’re arguing. 
 

Would you listen to ANY argument about how many of Josh’s TD’s came against bad teams that means they are worth less and are unimpressive? What about when they ran up the score on teams aka the other side of garbage time? No. Because it’s an inane point that goes well beyond the point of rationality. 
 

Similar to “QB X is great because he is 10/11 for 120 yards when throwing to the left hash in the third quarter,” the argument “QB X WASN’T that great because he had 9 TD’s in 3 games but he played bad teams” is inanity bordering on complete nonsense.

 

I mean. Come on.

 

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. 

 

The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit.  I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this.  To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable.

 

Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12.  He played well and was not the cause of their bad record  I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson.

 

I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

 

[SinceThe70s]

On 2/20/2021 at 11:33 AM, dave mcbride said:

What I think people are missing about Brady is that more than any QB in the league ever, he has answers. Whatever you throw at him—especially in meaningful games—he’ll figure it out and make the right decisions. Josh Allen, for instance, clearly isn’t there yet. To be sure, Brady isn’t perfect every game. He’ll occasionally even lose a playoff game. But in terms of diagnosing and exploiting what’s in front of him, no QB compares. As for physical attributes, they’re certainly good enough. He can make every throw even if his arm doesn’t compare to those of Allen, Rodgers, and Mahomes. One of the great myths of our era is that Aaron Rodgers is somehow the GOAT. He is a phenomenal QB, but too often doesn’t have the answers in big games.

 

Reading this post reminded me of a GOAT (at his position) from baseball: Mariano Rivera. Both his and Bradys success and longevity are unfathomable. Trying to compare any of their contemporary peers to them is an exercise in futility.  Naturally they both played on the teams in their sport that I hate the most.

[FireChans]

47 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. 

 

The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit.  I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this.  To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable.

 

Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12.  He played well and was not the cause of their bad record  I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson.

 

I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

 

Sure. But @transplantbillsfan wouldn't be.  That's the point.

 

Objectivity cuts both ways.

[transplantbillsfan]

37 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Sure. But @transplantbillsfan wouldn't be.  That's the point.

 

Objectivity cuts both ways.

 

I might be a homer, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

 

What you should probably do is ignore me if these are the best arguments you bring to discussion involving me.

 

By the way, did I say Watson had a bad year? In fact, didn't I say he was really good this year?

 

All I said was that his year is being blown out of proportion and provided evidence as to why. And also that in this "Allen vs Watson" discussion--ya know, the original purpose of this discussion--Allen is better than Watson and you do NOT make that player for player trade.

Edited February 22, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[CincyBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Sure. But @transplantbillsfan wouldn't be.  That's the point.

 

Objectivity cuts both ways.

 

On a dedicated Bills message board?  I don't expect objectivity when I visit other NFL message boards.

 

Now that doesn't mean I'm a blind partisan of the Bills and I don't view everything Bills related through rose colored glasses.  The last 25 years has hardened my football soul quite a bit and I am more then capable of being critical of the Bills.  But when it comes to talking about Allen, a guy who is likely to match or even exceed Jim Kelly as the greatest QB in Bills history, I'm going to be an advocate.  Particularly on a Bills message board.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by CincyBillsFan

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

On a dedicated Bills message board?  I don't expect objectivity when I visit other NFL message boards.

 

Now that doesn't mean I'm a blind partisan of the Bills and I don't view everything Bills related through rose colored glasses.  The last 25 years has hardened my football soul quite a bit and I am more then capable of being critical of the Bills.  But when it comes to talking about Allen, a guy who is likely to match or even exceed Jim Kelly as the greatest QB in Bills history, I'm going to be an advocate.  Particularly on a Bills message board.

 

 

I don’t care if you’re not being objective as long as you know you aren’t.

 

You can be an advocate for Josh Allen without going out of your way to make silly arguments against other players. Allen can be great and Watson can be great and you can think Allen is more great. 

 

I don’t expect anyone here to say Watson > Allen (bills fan or not because I think Allen > Watson is true). 

[transplantbillsfan]

Just now, FireChans said:

I don’t care if you’re not being objective as long as you know you aren’t.

 

You can be an advocate for Josh Allen without going out of your way to make silly arguments against other players. Allen can be great and Watson can be great and you can think Allen is more great. 

 

I don’t expect anyone here to say Watson > Allen (bills fan or not because I think Allen > Watson is true). 

 

Can you acknowledge that you're pretty clearly not objective, either?

 

Now... correct me if I'm wrong... but weren't you one of the more vocal "Allen doubters" on this message board?

 

Sorry, I may be confusing you with someone else or conflating your ridiculously-negative-clinging-to-a-past-long-gone-username with your recent opinions of Allen, but I generally get the sense you're one of those vocal ones here still with one foot in the boat.

 

NO ONE IS SAYING DESHAUN WATSON ISN'T GREAT!!!

[FireChans]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Can you acknowledge that you're pretty clearly not objective, either?

 

Now... correct me if I'm wrong... but weren't you one of the more vocal "Allen doubters" on this message board?

 

Sorry, I may be confusing you with someone else or conflating your ridiculously-negative-clinging-to-a-past-long-gone-username with your recent opinions of Allen, but I generally get the sense you're one of those vocal ones here still with one foot in the boat.

 

NO ONE IS SAYING DESHAUN WATSON ISN'T GREAT!!!

I mean, I thought Allen wasn’t that great in 2018. He was a work in progress. He’s great now. 

 

Do you think it’s funny in an argument about objectivity, you thought me being an Allen “doubter” in 2018 hurt my credibility? Because I’d argue the exact opposite.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

24 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Can you acknowledge that you're pretty clearly not objective, either?

 

Now... correct me if I'm wrong... but weren't you one of the more vocal "Allen doubters" on this message board?

 

Sorry, I may be confusing you with someone else or conflating your ridiculously-negative-clinging-to-a-past-long-gone-username with your recent opinions of Allen, but I generally get the sense you're one of those vocal ones here still with one foot in the boat.

 

NO ONE IS SAYING DESHAUN WATSON ISN'T GREAT!!!

He was one of the leaders of the pack!

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I mean, I thought Allen wasn’t that great in 2018. He was a work in progress. He’s great now. 

 

Do you think it’s funny in an argument about objectivity, you thought me being an Allen “doubter” in 2018 hurt my credibility? Because I’d argue the exact opposite.

 

Objectively... do you think it's fair to say you're underplaying your public view of Allen not just in 2018 but also in 2019?

[Thurman#1]

On 2/12/2021 at 8:18 AM, Albany,n.y. said:

Josh is better than Watson & always will be.  Watson was 4-12 this past season.  No team with Josh Allen as the starting QB would ever go 4-12.  Even in Josh's rookie year, with no offensive line or WRs, Josh willed the team to 5 wins out of the 11 games he started.  Watson loses, Josh wins.  Wins are the most important statistic because a QB makes everyone around him better.  Josh does that, Watson doesn't.  

 

 

No, that was NOT Watson who was 4 - 12. It was the Houston Texans.

 

And if you put Allen on a crappy team, that team also might go 4 - 12, particularly if their last coach had as thoroughly dynamited the team's morale and self-belief as O'Brien did in Texas.

 

Wins are indeed the most important statistic, of course. But they are a team statistic, not a QB statistic. Blaming Watson for the Texans having the 30th best defense in the league last year is just butt-headed. You evaluate a QB by how well or poorly he plays, period.

 

I think Allen's better than Watson, but you can't tell it by wins, which are affected by stuff like whether kickers hit field goals or whether RBs fumble or whether an OLB drops an INT right in his breadbasket. You decide who the best QB is by looking at who played QB better. It ain't rocket science.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Bill from NYC]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:35 PM, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

To all you fans out there that want to explore if Watson is better than Allen and if the Texans offered  Watson for Josh Allen the Bills should think about it.  Little guy Ricco on Bills Fanatics said Watson is better than Allen look at the Stats.    Here is the Major reason why Allen is better than Watson. Josh is  throwing in Buffalo, Watson is throwing in a Dome.  Has  Watson, ever in his career played in the cold?  He played at Clemson I don't recall their weather being blizzard like and in the pros he plays in a division with the Colts dome team, Tennessee warm weather team, and Jacksonville Warm weather team no where near the Weather Josh plays in.   Be thankful Buffalo you found the prototype QB to play in Buffalo's weather.

My response is that your screen name is just fantastic.

 

In fact, I am placing it in my top 10 for this site.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Bill from NYC

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. 

 

The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit.  I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this.  To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable.

 

Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12.  He played well and was not the cause of their bad record  I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson.

 

I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

 

Flashback one year ago in the biggest game of the year, while one was playing hero ball and failing, one was bouncing off two blitz era at the same time, leading his team to a victory.  We didn’t see Watson do that this last season because his team was so bad, he rarely had the chance.

 

We’ve known Watson was a great QB since his rookie season.  He came out of the nfl womb dominating.  We KNOW he is great already.  Last seasons “stats” mean little to nothing imo.  Whether it’s garbage time stats or crunch time stats.....he’s great regardless of what his stats are.  
 

What is the argument?  Who is better?  One was a great QB on a bad team.  One was a great QB on a very good team. The year before, when both teams were on similar levels, 1 played a good half and a bad half in the same game. They’re both great qbs. Allen had a better 2020.  Watson has had a better career.
 

it’s as if, now that we have a great QB, we have to compare him to every other great qb and while doing so, trash the opposing great QB.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

I’m just amused at the number of fans that feel they need to 💩 on Watson in order to praise Allen .... maybe they don’t really follow the game of football. 

[OrediggerPoke]

We also already know that Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen are better than Josh Allen.  I mean I read it on here and read it from all of the self proclaimed talent evaluators so it has to be true.