The Patrick Mahomes Super Bowl Debate

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Mahomes also threw himself under the bus. It was a clumsy presser but he was just shell shocked.

 

Eh he didn't seem too sincere about it. You could tell by his attitude he felt the offense let him down more than he let them down. And to be fair he's right. But the most successful people in any profession always blame themselves for failure even if it's objectively true that someone else is to blame. Genuinely feeling that you and you alone could have done more is a huge motivator.

 

You can tell Allen takes every loss personally, almost to a fault. He isn't just saying platitudes, you can see it on his face after every loss "man I screwed this one up" even when he wasn't to blame. I could find 10 reasons the Bills lost to KC but Allen would only ever point to himself. He said it in his Chris Simms interview, he can be self-loathing at times. Every loss only motivates him to work harder so it doesn't happen again.

 

All this being said it doesn't really matter because Mahomes is extremely talented and will dominate the league for a long time. It does make me question what it will look like if he ever faces long periods of real adversity in his NFL career because that will undoubtedly happen at some point. Is he going to find excuses or find a way to win?

[Meatloaf63]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:30 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Mahommes was hurt and it affected his movement in the pocket.   He played ok just not super-human. The line was the main issue pure and simple. I will add Kelce had three drops in the SB in a season where he had only 1 in 16 games.  

If you watch Kelce play he regularly drops balls, he had a few the week before. And Mahomes ran for over hundreds of yards behind the line of scrimmage he was fine. But you are right, the line was his issue, he’s never faced that kind of pressure and he couldn’t perform because of it. Few can deal with it that hard, and he didn’t on this night...

[finn]

There are many quarterbacks with awful lines and unreliable receivers, starting with Allen his first year, but none of them is defended so vehemently as Mahomes is. Some psychological effect is at work, like the writers are identifying with him or are otherwise tied to his being not just very good but flawless, godlike. They seem threatened by critiques of his play, as though they fear the critiques are about them and their manhood. Weird. We've seen the same with Marcia all these years. Any whisper that he might have played poorly is shouted down. 

[FireChans]

31 minutes ago, finn said:

There are many quarterbacks with awful lines and unreliable receivers, starting with Allen his first year, but none of them is defended so vehemently as Mahomes is. Some psychological effect is at work, like the writers are identifying with him or are otherwise tied to his being not just very good but flawless, godlike. They seem threatened by critiques of his play, as though they fear the critiques are about them and their manhood. Weird. We've seen the same with Marcia all these years. Any whisper that he might have played poorly is shouted down. 

Wow. Super Bowl winners and MVP’s don’t get attacked by the media.

 

This is a shocking development 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Meatloaf63 said:

If you watch Kelce play he regularly drops balls, he had a few the week before. And Mahomes ran for over hundreds of yards behind the line of scrimmage he was fine. But you are right, the line was his issue, he’s never faced that kind of pressure and he couldn’t perform because of it. Few can deal with it that hard, and he didn’t on this night...

I don’t watch every KC game but I looked up Kelce. At one point he went 58 receptions without a drop and he was only credited with 1 during the season. But that stat can be subjective I'm sure.

[billsherd]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:48 PM, Rico said:

Pictures speak louder than words.

Seeing ghost?👻

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Eh he didn't seem too sincere about it. You could tell by his attitude he felt the offense let him down more than he let them down. And to be fair he's right. But the most successful people in any profession always blame themselves for failure even if it's objectively true that someone else is to blame. Genuinely feeling that you and you alone could have done more is a huge motivator.

 

You can tell Allen takes every loss personally, almost to a fault. He isn't just saying platitudes, you can see it on his face after every loss "man I screwed this one up" even when he wasn't to blame. I could find 10 reasons the Bills lost to KC but Allen would only ever point to himself. He said it in his Chris Simms interview, he can be self-loathing at times. Every loss only motivates him to work harder so it doesn't happen again.

 

All this being said it doesn't really matter because Mahomes is extremely talented and will dominate the league for a long time. It does make me question what it will look like if he ever faces long periods of real adversity in his NFL career because that will undoubtedly happen at some point. Is he going to find excuses or find a way to win?

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

[machine gun kelly]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:26 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Michael Jordan didn't even make it to the NBA finals until his 7th year...........he had more than a few fails in the lead up........and never won a championship when he didn't have the healthier and more talented team.

 

That's not to detract from Jordan but the notion that he was infallible is far from correct.    2 SB appearances and 3 title games in 3 years as a starting QB in the NFL is pretty amazing.

Everything you said is irrefutable, but I believe he was asking if the media was using every excuse to not admit he had a bad game.  I would agree he had a bad game, and his turf toe was more severe than he let on for good reason.  You try not to let onto you’re opponent the significance of an injury without going too far to get in trouble with the league.

 

My answer is yes, he had one bad game although it was in the biggest game of the year.  It’s also a little demeaning to the Bucs as that defense had a great game, so when some media folks twist what we saw, it doesn’t make sense.

 

Nord, I don’t read your post as not acknowledging how great the beginning of a career he’s had, just that several don’t want to admit, he played a bad game.  I agree.  It’s part that and part the defense played a great game in all phases.

 

Thats my vote, and One reason I like Cosell is he’s not afraid to just state reality.  He doesn’t pump up or down people.  That’s why my favorite football show although least favorite station is Matchup.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:14 AM, JohnNord said:

After weeks of hearing how Patrick Mahomes is the “Michael Jordan” of the NFL, some in the media are now going out of their way to prop up his performance in the Super Bowl - despite the bad numbers and meager scoring output.

 

 

Yet earlier today, one of the most respect film analysts Gregg Cosell, actually used film study to show that Mahomes didn’t play his best game.  In the full podcast Tucker noted that so many wanted to blame the OL without acknowledging that Mahomes wasn’t as sharp as he’s been in the past.  

 

 

My opinion, is that while Mahomes made some incredible plays it was still probably his worst game as a pro.  I wouldn’t say he was the reason he lost, but you can add him to the long list of Chiefs who didn’t deliver.  
 

I do feel that the media is contorting to try to prop him up.  I find that kind of bizarre.  The crazy thing is that against the Bills everyone said “oh look how he’s moving he’s showing NO effects from turf toe.”  Then when he was losing they said “that turf toe is really affecting his throws tonight.”

 

The Chiefs fanbase is especially banging this drum hard.   
 

Where do you fall on this debate and do you think there’s a Pro-Mahomes narrative some are trying to push?

 

 

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

And I wouldn't say his worst game as a pro. That's significant exaggeration. But yeah, the pressure really did affect him, but it will affect any QB, really. Still, not his best game, but I agree that he was not one of the major reasons they lost.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

 

For sure. You are allowed to see it and interpret it differently. But I am equally allowed to challenge what I see as a false narrative. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I don't consider this speculation... I consider this good observation. Many of us feel this same way.. Maybe how you looked at it was different? and that is ok right? cause we all have the right to see things how we see them.

 

 

Regardless of how you consider it, it's speculation. Either way.

 

He didn't say anything that would make anyone think that. Reading his "attitude," which is where you said the problem was, that's speculation.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Regardless of how you consider it, it's speculation. Either way.

 

He didn't say anything that would make anyone think that. Reading his "attitude," which is where you said the problem was, that's speculation.

 

This. You said it better than I Thurm. Thanks.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:21 AM, Johnnycage46 said:

I would tend to trust Cosell over Mina Kimes, personally.

 

 

 

Well, yes, but they didn't disagree.

 

Cosell said he played fast right from the start, that he moved unnecessarily, that "he was anticipating and perceiving pressure even when it was not there," (a very common symptom of QBs who are pressured a lot in a game, by the way), "and he missed about three or four plays, including what would have been a touchdown to Tyreek Hill because he moved when he did not have to."

 

Kimes said that Mahomes wasn't in the top ten of reasons they lost.

 

Both of those things could easily be true. They are not logically contradictory.

 

I think Kimes was exaggerating, myself. He probably was among the top ten, but not among the top five, IMO. I don't think he was in a position to get them to a win even if he'd played the best possible game under the conditions.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Thurman#1

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

And I wouldn't say his worst game as a pro. That's significant exaggeration. But yeah, the pressure really did affect him, but it will affect any QB, really. Still, not his best game, but I agree that he was not one of the major reasons they lost.

Ok so what was his worst game then?  Part of the reason for so much hype is that “bad” games by Mahomes standards really aren’t that bad.  By the numbers alone this was easily his worst. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Gotta disagree with you about the turf toe. I was really hoping to see him limp against us. He didn't. It looked like he'd recovered. Then against Tampa he was limping a lot. Maybe someone stepped on him or he kicked the turf or something but it was immediately clear that he was suffering from it much more against Tampa than he had against us.

 

Against us, Mahomes got to stand peacefully in the pocket and lick his lips or scamper untouched out of bounds.

 

Against Tampa, he was constantly harassed, he ran around frantically trying to find a play, and he got hit and tackled in a way that could easily have aggravated his toe.

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

How can you "tell"? I can't "tell". Pure speculation.

 

Yeah I'll admit it's speculation but it isn't baseless. I've never heard a QB in a post game press conference come out and say his receivers were in the wrong spot and that his offensive line gave up pressure. The standard is to say "I could have played better" and move on. This was the first time in Mahomes's NFL career that he faced real adversity and personally I don't think he handled it well.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I'll admit it's speculation but it isn't baseless. I've never heard a QB in a post game press conference come out and say his receivers were in the wrong spot and that his offensive line gave up pressure. The standard is to say "I could have played better" and move on. This was the first time in Mahomes's NFL career that he faced real adversity and personally I don't think he handled it well.

 

But to me he sounded perfectly sincere when he started by criticising himself and if anything my interpretation was he was still a little shocked. I just think way too much is being read into it. He said he was off with his timing and that his receivers were not where he expected them to be. He might well have been in his head linking the two like "I have to get it out on time or else the guys won't be in their spots" and he said the line did good sometimes and let guys through sometimes. Again he could have used the "sure there are some plays they'd like back" cliché but that is what he was getting at. It was clumsy and he did kind of throw his guys under the bus but he was throwing himself right there with them in my opinion. I don't for a second believe he was trying to pass the buck. 

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Ok so what was his worst game then?  Part of the reason for so much hype is that “bad” games by Mahomes standards really aren’t that bad.  By the numbers alone this was easily his worst. 

You aren't actually engaged in a campaign here arguing against Mahomes' talent, are you?

 

He's the #1 most desirable QB in the league right now, and every single team in the NFL agrees with me.

 

Beyond that, there's really not much to discuss, unless you just want to argue with strangers on the internet for fun.

 

 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

You aren't actually engaged in a campaign here arguing against Mahomes' talent, are you?

 

He's the #1 most desirable QB in the league right now, and every single team in the NFL agrees with me.

 

Beyond that, there's really not much to discuss, unless you just want to argue with strangers on the internet for fun.

 

 

I don’t think Mahomes needs you to white knight for him.  Besides, I never doubted his talent at all.  What I did doubt is whether his game was as good as some have touted it to be.  This entire thread is around the variance of opinion as to whether Mahomes played a “great” game in the Super Bowl.  Fans and media all have different takes which is what makes this a topic worth discussing...because you know you are on an internet message board with strangers for fun.  
 

Someone emphatically stated that the Super Bowl wasn’t his worst game, and I said it was citing actual statistics.  So again, I’ll ask you since you see to be so vested in Mahomes.  What was his worst game as a pro?  Because just about every other start has been good