Is Russell Wilson The Next QB To Be On The Move - Tensions Seem To Be Growing

[H2o]

45 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'll use John Elway as an example here.

 

When he was coming into the league, he saw he was about to be drafted into a poorly managed franchise, and played what little cards he had to try to control his destiny. Even though it was well established that rookies "go where they are drafted" and should never question it, and just be happy they are getting a chance in the league.

 

And now he's actually a President running a franchise.

 

So when folks up-thread ask why these guys think they are qualified to participate in decision making, there you go.

 

I actually don't believe Elway is the best example to use. The 2011 Draft built that team and they lucked up getting Harris as a UDFA that year. That was his first year on the job so I don't actually know how much input he had considering he was only a little over 5 months in. I'm sure a major part of the scouting was already done. Either way, he did pull the trigger on those moves and it was one hell of a draft. He then made a couple of nice moves with Manning, Ware, and Talib. Many of his other decisions since have been craptastic and led to him being in the position he is now. Not because of his prowess, but because he's beloved within the organization and Denver's #1 son. 

[Jauronimo]

3 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Looking at his contract, he got paid $50m+ in cash in 2020.  He’s only slated to make $19m in cash in 2021.  I know, poor him but  that’s a really poorly constructed contract from the standpoint of incentivizing the player.  Instead of a $65m signing bonus split over the first 2 years, put in guaranteed roster bonuses that spread what is paid to the player more evenly each year.  Human nature for a guy like Wilson to say I’m not getting my head beat in for $19m, which is fringe starter money for a QB.  

Not familiar with the time value of money, I see.  I can assure you Russel's representation is acutely aware of it.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Jauronimo

[Rc2catch]

10 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If the reports are true I bet they'd trade him in a heartbeat for the #1 pick this year and either some players or draft capital.

I don’t know. I guess if they see Lawrence as some do as a generational talent. I am never in favor of proven vs expected. I think coach Carroll is losing his team over there though. If I was a betting man my money would be on them firing him and hiring someone Wilson supports 

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Rc2catch said:

I don’t know. I guess if they see Lawrence as some do as a generational talent. I am never in favor of proven vs expected. I think coach Carroll is losing his team over there though. If I was a betting man my money would be on them firing him and hiring someone Wilson supports 

Working relationships generally have a shelf life. Little things build up over a decade and sometimes its just time to move on.  Especially when Seattle has come close a number of times but hasn't been able to make it back to the big game.  Carroll and management is probably looking at what they could do with a rookie QB contract like when they went to Super Bowls with Wilson and Wilson is thinking about what he could do if he got the Brady/Manning treatment and ran the offense. 

[BuffaloRebound]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Not familiar with the time value of money, I see.  I can assure you Russel's representation is acutely aware of it.

Time value of money don’t incentivize a guy to get his body pounded by 300 lb guys another year for fringe starter money.  It was dumb of Seattle to structure his contract that way even if that’s what Wilson’s agent asked for.  Most if not all people see that they’re  getting paid $19m this year, not that I got $50m last year, $15m of which was an advance on this year.  

[Rc2catch]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

Working relationships generally have a shelf life. Little things build up over a decade and sometimes its just time to move on.  Especially when Seattle has come close a number of times but hasn't been able to make it back to the big game.  Carroll and management is probably looking at what they could do with a rookie QB contract like when they went to Super Bowls with Wilson and Wilson is thinking about what he could do if he got the Brady/Manning treatment and ran the offense. 

100% I can see both sides. Carroll is up there in age though. So I would expect the GM and franchise to side with the quarterback who has 5+ elite years left opposed to the coach who is hitting his 70’s 

[Utah John]

It would be ironic if Wilson does move.  The Seahawks got really good when he was on his rookie contract, but then when it was time to pay him they had to let a lot of really good players go because they couldn't pay him, and them, and still field a team.  You would think that having a QB as good as Wilson would be a good problem to have, but it's not all roses.

 

The window for a team with a great young QB to win a SB is fairly short.

[Jauronimo]

30 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Time value of money don’t incentivize a guy to get his body pounded by 300 lb guys another year for fringe starter money.  It was dumb of Seattle to structure his contract that way even if that’s what Wilson’s agent asked for.  Most if not all people see that they’re  getting paid $19m this year, not that I got $50m last year, $15m of which was an advance on this year.  

Taking lower financial compensation by spreading money out over the life of a non-guaranteed contract is interesting incentivization.  Pretty much very major contract is structured front loaded.  Players agents negotiate for as much guaranteed money as they can get paid out as quickly as they can get it.  Why do you think that is?

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Taking lower financial compensation by spreading money out over the life of a non-guaranteed contract is interesting incentivization.  Pretty much very major contract is structured front loaded.  Players agents negotiate for as much guaranteed money as they can get paid out as quickly as they can get it.  Why do you think that is?

Everybody prefers to get paid now over in the future.  Time value of money is only a small piece of it especially when the risk free rate is below 1%.   The more important piece is nobody knows what the future holds so give me the money now.    
What’s gonna happen if Seattle does trade Wilson?  They’re gonna eat that entire $65m bonus.  And I guarantee you Wilson is gonna get a new deal and make a lot more than $19m in 2021 for his new team.  Take a look at Wentz’s contract.  Similar money but only a $16m upfront bonus.  Wilson’s contract is horribly structured for the Seahawks sake.  It gives Wilson a tremendous amount of leverage.  

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

I actually don't believe Elway is the best example to use. The 2011 Draft built that team and they lucked up getting Harris as a UDFA that year. That was his first year on the job so I don't actually know how much input he had considering he was only a little over 5 months in. I'm sure a major part of the scouting was already done. Either way, he did pull the trigger on those moves and it was one hell of a draft. He then made a couple of nice moves with Manning, Ware, and Talib. Many of his other decisions since have been craptastic and led to him being in the position he is now. Not because of his prowess, but because he's beloved within the organization and Denver's #1 son. 

 

I never said he's a GOOD President. Just good enough that an owner trusts him to do the job.

[Jauronimo]

6 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Everybody prefers to get paid now over in the future.  Time value of money is only a small piece of it especially when the risk free rate is below 1%.   The more important piece is nobody knows what the future holds so give me the money now.    
What’s gonna happen if Seattle does trade Wilson?  They’re gonna eat that entire $65m bonus.  And I guarantee you Wilson is gonna get a new deal and make a lot more than $19m in 2021 for his new team.  Take a look at Wentz’s contract.  Similar money but only a $16m upfront bonus.  Wilson’s contract is horribly structured for the Seahawks sake.  It gives Wilson a tremendous amount of leverage.  

What is your argument? That Wilson would be happier with the Seahawks and more incentivized to play if he took less upfront money, which we have already established that players want as much as possible as quickly as possible, and more money later on? I fail to see how signing a less favorable contract would make him happier later on but you do you. 

[The Frankish Reich]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What does a player contract mean? 

 

Trading a player under contract is usually disadvantageous to the trading team if there is a generous signing bonus the team has to eat.  The more recent the signing, the more disadvantageous.

 

Seems to me that if teams start letting key players under contract force trades whenever they have a difference of opinion, contracts will start having little meaning to  teams.

 

The owners gotta see this.

I’m sure they do see it. But it’s like trying to maintain a conspiracy (or to use a less sinister term, price-fixing) involving 32 companies. Will 2

owners see the personal/team gain in breaking discipline? History says it’s a matter of time. 

4 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

San Francisco (won’t happen for obvious reasons) 

 

Indianapolis

 

New Orleans (Cap space will make it nearly impossible) 

And nobody mentioned Miami? Time for a Dolphins Have Something Up Their Sleeves freak out!

[y2zipper]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

He gets smashed a lot every year.  He was sacked 146 times the last 3 years and led the NFL with 51 in 2018. He has been sacked 394 times in 144 games, nearly 3 per game.  Wilson and Deshaun Watson are 2 of the most sacked QBs in NFL history going by sack percentage. Watson is at 9.05% and Wilson is at 8.33%

 

The counterpoint to this is that Wilson stylistically is the quarterback that is responsible for many of his own sacks because of his tendency to deep drop to find receivers down the field and his inability to throw over the middle. Seattle's offensive line was bad in 2016 and 2017, but has gotten better since Dwayne Brown got there. This season they were top 10 in pass block win rate and 16th and pass protection according to pro football focus.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, y2zipper said:

 

The counterpoint to this is that Wilson stylistically is the quarterback that is responsible for many of his own sacks because of his tendency to deep drop to find receivers down the field and his inability to throw over the middle. Seattle's offensive line was bad in 2016 and 2017, but has gotten better since Dwayne Brown got there. This season they were top 10 in pass block win rate and 16th and pass protection according to pro football focus.

 

I don't deny that but the offense is not really designed to have a quick passing game either which would help in some situations.

[Meatloaf63]

4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

When an employee is:

• making 20-25% of the entire payroll
• higher paid than the Head Coach and GM (combined in some cases)
• the face of the franchise
• the largest contributor to the success of the team, touching the ball every offensive play

Why shouldnt they get a say? Are they really not running the franchise at all when they are so responsible for the team's on-field performance?

They get whatever the contract and owner agrees to and nothing else. They get that money to perform on the field at a high level, the owner is already paying a GM and coach...

[colin]

5 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

San Francisco (won’t happen for obvious reasons) 

 

Indianapolis

 

New Orleans (Cap space will make it nearly impossible) 

 

 

Wilson on Indy would be disgusting.  you just know Riech would blend ball control/balance w Russ's over the top game and it would be gross.

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

What is your argument? That Wilson would be happier with the Seahawks and more incentivized to play if he took less upfront money, which we have already established that players want as much as possible as quickly as possible, and more money later on? I fail to see how signing a less favorable contract would make him happier later on but you do you. 

You’re arguing that most deals are structured with huge upfront signing bonuses.  I’m arguing that they aren’t as evidenced by Wentz’s deal which was signed less than 2 months after Wilson’s and is the best comp.  You introduced time value of money which is completely irrelevant to paying Wilson a $65m signing bonus on a 4 year $140m deal vs paying Wentz a $16m signing bonus on a 4 year $128m deal.  
Yes, a guy who was already paid $88m on the first 2 years of his deal, consistently takes a beating behind that OL, and is now schedule to only make $19m in 2021 has an incentive problem.  And the Seahawks have themselves to blame.  
Memo to Beane, do not structure Josh’s contract like Wilson’s no matter how big a fan he is of the time value of money.  

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I don’t look at as egotistical, more like leverage.  Like it or not it’s a QB driven league so they’re the ones who have it. And if he has issues with taking too many hits and doesn’t feel like he’s being listened to, they’ll surely be listening now.  

 

Then why didn't he say I'm getting killed here. I want to be traded as opposed to I need more say in decisions so I want to be traded?

 

I hope Seattle and Houston give these guys some Bill Bellyache style advice.  DO YOUR JOB.

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, BuffaloRebound said:

You’re arguing that most deals are structured with huge upfront signing bonuses.  I’m arguing that they aren’t as evidenced by Wentz’s deal which was signed less than 2 months after Wilson’s and is the best comp.  You introduced time value of money which is completely irrelevant to paying Wilson a $65m signing bonus on a 4 year $140m deal vs paying Wentz a $16m signing bonus on a 4 year $128m deal.  
Yes, a guy who was already paid $88m on the first 2 years of his deal, consistently takes a beating behind that OL, and is now schedule to only make $19m in 2021 has an incentive problem.  And the Seahawks have themselves to blame.  
Memo to Beane, do not structure Josh’s contract like Wilson’s no matter how big a fan he is of the time value of money.  

You've got future GM written all over you.  Sign a worse deal today so you'll be happier in 3 years.  Players will be flocking to sign with you for that third year satisfaction.  

 

"I know you don't want to sign this ***** contract today, but in three years when you're making more than league average you won't want to leave as much. But you really need to sign this today."  

 

Before you come back and tell me some ***** about Carson Wentz please review https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/quarterback/

[colin]

so, im on record that i don't want nba trash where the players are bigger than the team.  

 

i will say, they've gamed the rules so much that QBs and offenses are at such an advantage (last super bowl being an exception, given that both Ts for KC were out and mahomes can't do what josh does) that somewhat small differences in ability at qb make for big impacts in how they impact the game.

 

Rbs went from the workhorse of the O to basically a dime a dozen, and good tackling LBs and bigger safeties have seen their value drop hard because of the qb emphasis.  well, QBs becoming the kings of the franchise is something i think the NFL dumbed their way into by tinkering so much with the rules.  i'd hope that there is a return to balance somehow, but it doesn't seem to be going that way.

 

i say this as a die hard bills fan, and josh is our whole friggen team, and i think as much or more than any of these other guys he can and will work with less around him and win, and has the fighter attitude that i don't think leads to him demanding a trade and what not, but the nfl has up and made the most important position in team sports even more so, and it's not a good idea.