"20 other QB's in the league could have won w/ the Bucs on Sunday"

[Thurman#1]

Worth noting that the Falcons - Pats Super Bowl a few years ago looked like this one but reversed, with Brady and the Pats down. Falcons up 28 - 3. Then stuff happened.

 

The momentum in this year's game never switched. And a lot of that was that Brady never let his foot off their neck.

 

One mistake might have switched things around, given the Chiefs hope. Brady never made one.

[Richard Noggin]

8 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I just don’t know.  Brady did what he does - quick reads and quick short passes.  He also got a lot of calls that benefited the offense.

 

The throws he made could have been done by 90% of QBs in the NFL including a large number of back-ups and the fact the defense smothered KC - gives credence to the thought, but I look at Mahomes (or Josh) and they had those quick dump off throws and didn’t take them.  
 

I think far fewer QBs are comfortable enough to just take those throws and even fewer can read and make the split second decisions to make them consistently work.  
 

I think he did very little, but I am not going to assume guys that I think are better QBs could of done that well or done it that easily.

 

Brady's entire approach to playing QB, at least early in his career (and probably again now late in his career) runs completely counter to these younger, more physically gifted, transcendently talented, aggressive guys. Aside from a midcareer run with an HOF receiver, he always HAD to master the details and take what the defense gave him in a mostly boring, often sackless, efficient way. 

 

These new hotshot QBs with their athleticism, toughness, creativity, and nearly limitless arm talent, have to gradually reprogram themselves to play more within the limits of each play. That's historically proven to be difficult for most QBs to do consistently. I think both Allen and Mahomes lost in the playoffs due to a hard-wired reluctance or even slight delay in deciding to play efficient small ball. Probably also has something to do with coaching: offensive gameplans and passing concepts and progressions tailored to their strengths and all that. 

 

They might have to learn to temper their approaches more. To pick their spots. To preserve their talents at times.

[JohnNord]

The reaction the this years Super Bowl is interesting.

 

It seems that some are trying to diminish a pretty dominating performance by Tampa Bay on both sides of the ball while trying to make excuses for Kansas City and Pat Mahomes.  
 

Yes, Mahomes was under pressure all day and some of the throws he made while evading were incredible.  No doubt.  But he completed 50% of his passes, threw for 2 INT and scored a measly 9 points.  It was not a great game for him. 

 

But where was the talk of the foot injury when he played Buffalo?  Many said that he was back to himself and that the foot wasn’t bothering him.  But when he struggled 
 

Also, the offensive line has been short handed all season long.  The loss of Fisher last week hurt them, but how many in the media raved about how KC took unheralded lineman and got them to play at a high level against Cleveland and Buffalo.  This week, more excuses.  
 

Finally Andy Reid went from being a bold and brilliant play caller three weeks ago, to a buffoon for not running the football - which he hasn’t done much all year....largely because of his passing offense.  And then there’s the timeouts at the end of the half!

 

Ive never seen so many excuses for a team that lost by 3 TD’s.  

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

When you give officials free TB12 vitamins your going to get those calls.

[papazoid]

TB defense holding KC to 9 points.....that's amazing....that's what won this game.

 

TB offense is loaded with talent too....

 

could 20 other QB's have scored 10 or more points, in this one game,  if the only change was Brady out and they are in ??

 

the short answer is YES !!..... but brady is still clearly a top 10 QB who doesn't shrink under the brightest lights, instills confidence and leadership.

 

he is the G.O.A.T.

 

could 20 other QB's have scored 31 points ?.....hell no

[Nihilarian]

14 hours ago, JohnNord said:

The reaction the this years Super Bowl is interesting.

 

It seems that some are trying to diminish a pretty dominating performance by Tampa Bay on both sides of the ball while trying to make excuses for Kansas City and Pat Mahomes.  
 

Yes, Mahomes was under pressure all day and some of the throws he made while evading were incredible.  No doubt.  But he completed 50% of his passes, threw for 2 INT and scored a measly 9 points.  It was not a great game for him. 

 

But where was the talk of the foot injury when he played Buffalo?  Many said that he was back to himself and that the foot wasn’t bothering him.  But when he struggled 
 

Also, the offensive line has been short handed all season long.  The loss of Fisher last week hurt them, but how many in the media raved about how KC took unheralded lineman and got them to play at a high level against Cleveland and Buffalo.  This week, more excuses.  
 

Finally Andy Reid went from being a bold and brilliant play caller three weeks ago, to a buffoon for not running the football - which he hasn’t done much all year....largely because of his passing offense.  And then there’s the timeouts at the end of the half!

 

Ive never seen so many excuses for a team that lost by 3 TD’s.  

 

This! 

 

Along with the Bills fans attempting to diminish what the greatest NFL QB of all time can do to a team. The man demands excellence from his teammates and tells straight out them if they aren't doing their job. 

 

Seven rings! 

 

Ole Tom is about as competitive as it gets...

 

"The image of the 43-year-old franchise quarterback mixing it up with a much younger defensive star had an effect on both teams. After the game, Tampa Bay Buccaneers receiver Mike Evans said the exchange fired up his team.

"I don't know what it does for him, but for the guys around us, we love that *****," Evans told reporters, via NFL Network's James Palmer. "We love when he gets fiery and competitive. There's a lot of guys like that on this team, so when he does it he has a lot of guys to back him up."

 

https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/tom-brady-fired-up-his-team-and-surprised-the-chiefs-by-getting-into-a-heated-exchange-with-chiefs-safety-tyrann-mathieu/articleshow/80744270.cms

 

The Tampa bay defense was dominant* alright...except they didn't score 4 TDs and a FG. Brady threw for three TDs. 

 

Yeah, I still hate the guy as a NE Patriot. Yet, admire him for what he has accomplished. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Nihilarian

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I guess we are going to just have to agree to disagree. I just don’t think the Bills are such a bad team. I believe they currently have the talent to beat any team in the NFL. Could they get better at some positions? Absolutely. But contrary to some are saying on here, they are not “10 players away” or “3 more years away.”
 

The reality is that many of these games turns on matchups, and developing the right gameplans. We finished 15-4 playing the fifth hardest schedule,  shredding very good defenses along the way, and holding some very good offenses in check. We have a great team. 

I am not saying this is you, but the recency bias flowing from that KC game and what Tampa did to

KC in the Super Bowl is mind blowing. 

 

 

Who said the Bills are "such a bad team"??

 

It's not recency bias (nor is it "mind blowing")--if you were paying attention to the Bucs, you would know that they were the hottest team coming off their bye over the last 8 weeks and beat the best of the NFC to get to the SB and then crushed what was the consensus best team in the NFL.

 

Given what the KC Defesne did to the Bills, I really don't see how they could have beaten the Bucs D. 

[Southern_Bills]

Brady deserves his props. He didn't put up eye popping numbers and yes that defense was on fire for the Packers game and the SB. 

 

Don't discount Bradys leadership though, when he was going after Mathieu it infuriated the KC defense and juiced all his teammates.

 

Still don't like him, but he does his thing.

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, MPT said:

There are at least 20 QBs who could have won that game.

 

The are also at least 20 QBs who wouldn't have almost single-handedly lost the NFCCG.

 

Just a reminder for everybody: Brady has still never won a Super Bowl without a top 3 defense on the other side of the ball. 

 

Insanely talented? Yes. Insanely lucky? Also yes.

 

You mean his own Defense?

 

 

2018 (7th in points/21st in yards)

 

2014 (8th/13th)

 

2001 (6th/24th)

 

in the other 3 SB wins, his D wasn't in top 3 in yards allowed but top 3 in points allowed. 

 

Brady's Offense, however, was top 5 in scoring for 4 of the 6 SB wins (another they were 6th).  

 

 

[Success]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

This! 

 

Along with the Bills fans attempting to diminish what the greatest NFL QB of all time can do to a team. The man demands excellence from his teammates and tells straight out them if they aren't doing their job. 

 

Seven rings! 

 

Ole Tom is about as competitive as it gets...

 

"The image of the 43-year-old franchise quarterback mixing it up with a much younger defensive star had an effect on both teams. After the game, Tampa Bay Buccaneers receiver Mike Evans said the exchange fired up his team.

"I don't know what it does for him, but for the guys around us, we love that *****," Evans told reporters, via NFL Network's James Palmer. "We love when he gets fiery and competitive. There's a lot of guys like that on this team, so when he does it he has a lot of guys to back him up."

 

https://www.businessinsider.in/sports/news/tom-brady-fired-up-his-team-and-surprised-the-chiefs-by-getting-into-a-heated-exchange-with-chiefs-safety-tyrann-mathieu/articleshow/80744270.cms

 

The Tampa bay defense was dominate alright...except they didn't score 4 TDs and a FG. Brady threw for three TDs. 

 

Yeah, I still hate the guy as a NE Patriot. Yet, admire him for what he has accomplished. 

 

 

 

Brady is Jordan to me.

 

When Jordan was playing, I really couldn't stand him. I'm a Knicks fan, and he just stood in the way - in the same frustrating, "always finds a way to win" fashion.  I definitely spent some time arguing that it was his coaching, or his team, or something aside from what pretty much everyone understands: he's the terminator, and no one can really touch him.

 

A few years ago, I took my kids to the HOF, and I was like, "I saw the flu game!"

 

I'll appreciate Brady quite a bit more after he retires.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Success

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Who said the Bills are "such a bad team"??

 

It's not recency bias (nor is it "mind blowing")--if you were paying attention to the Bucs, you would know that they were the hottest team coming off their bye over the last 8 weeks and beat the best of the NFC to get to the SB and then crushed what was the consensus best team in the NFL.

 

Given what the KC Defesne did to the Bills, I really don't see how they could have beaten the Bucs D. 

this is ultimately all guess work.
 

But we beat, in my view, the better defense and hotter team in the Ravens  just a few weeks ago. We also beat the Colts, whose D is comparable to the Bucs. We also beat the Rams, Steelers, Dolphins, and Patriots— all of whom have comparable (though statistically better) defenses to the Bucs. 
 

I think it comes down the matchups more than anything. The Bucs matched up much better with KC because KC had 3 JV players on their oline and Tampa had the LB speed to contain and control Kelce.

 

I think we match up better. I believe our tackles wouldn’t have been sieves. And I don’t think Tampa running a dime or nickel against our 4 and 5-WR sets plays to their defensive strengths (eg, linebacker play). 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You mean his own Defense?

 

 

2018 (7th in points/21st in yards)

 

2014 (8th/13th)

 

2001 (6th/24th)

 

in the other 3 SB wins, his D wasn't in top 3 in yards allowed but top 3 in points allowed. 

 

Brady's Offense, however, was top 5 in scoring for 4 of the 6 SB wins (another they were 6th).  

 

 

 

Look at the T/G column here: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/index.htm

 

3 years outside the top 10.  One of those years was 2017 when brady only threw 8 picks, the defense just didn't have a lot of takeaways.  

 

He protected the ball insanely well for them.  That tends to lead to long fields and makes it easier to prevent the opponent from scoring.

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

this is ultimately all guess work.
 

But we beat, in my view, the better defense and hotter team in the Ravens  just a few weeks ago. We also beat the Colts, whose D is comparable to the Bucs. We also beat the Rams, Steelers, Dolphins, and Patriots— all of whom have comparable (though statistically better) defenses to the Bucs. 
 

I think it comes down the matchups more than anything. The Bucs matched up much better with KC because KC had 3 JV players on their oline and Tampa had the LB speed to contain and control Kelce.

 

I think we match up better. I believe our tackles wouldn’t have been sieves. And I don’t think Tampa running a dime or nickel against our 4 and 5-WR sets plays to their defensive strengths (eg, linebacker play). 

 

Bucs D was 6th.  Indy 8th. Miami 20th...so not statistically better than  the Bucs.

 

As for the "3 JV players" you keep repeating, missing was Fisher--the other 4 were the same line that faced the Bills 2 weeks ago....and that the Bills D could not handle very well.  

 

And if you think the Bills O-line/Matador lineup that got spanked by the Chiefs front 7 would have done better against White/Suh/JPP/Barrett/David....lol, there's no reason to believe that.  It would been a bloodbath for Josh.  

 

 

[st pete gogolak]

To me, here’s the really mind boggling thing about Brady.  Jim Kelly retired at 36.  At 36, Brady had been in 5 Super Bowls and won 3.  In the conversation with Montana, Bradshaw, Manning, Unitas, Starr, etc. etc. but certainly no consensus GOAT.  At 37 and after, he’s been in 5 Super Bowls and won 4.  That’s just unreal.  It’s a combination of  diet, conditioning, competitive nature and yes, being hit less than any QB who has ever lived but there’s no question you have to give him credit for what he has done after most QB’s have hung up the cleats.

[RobbRiddick]

23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

As far as the contributions of pure QB play - maybe not 20, but 5 or 6, certainly.

 

As far as the winning drive and the leadership that seemed to have elevated the team -

 

I heard an anecdote, not remembering where now, that one of the Bucs players was crying with happiness in the celebratory Bucs locker room after winning the NFC championship.  Brady saw it and yelled at him:

 

"What the ***** are you crying about?  We ain't done nothing yet.  After we win next game, then you can cry."

 

I used to under-rate the effect of that kind of leadership on a team but now I see it's important and should not be under-rated.

 

I personally think that one factor which may have lost us the game was that the Bills kind of had their "Party Hats" on to be going to the AFC Championship game, and didn't pull them off fast enough and get back to grinding.

 

Absolutely. Brady is that guy (and has been for years now) where players will shut up and listen to him. Even that a-hole Brown, who their coach didn't even want, Brady vouched for him and guaranteed he wouldn't be trouble. And he was right. Not many QBs carry that kind of aura where their body of work says so much that even the biggest jerks will tow the line if he says so. Manning had it to a certain degree as well. 

 

Brady didn't just improve them at the QB position, he changed the entire mentality of that team. Whatever he says during meetings and pregame, you know guys are going to shut up and listen, because he can just point to (at that point) the six SB rings. I also think him being there would give the entire team that extra self belief, "Tom's told us we're going to win this game and he's been there and done it more than anyone, so it has to be true".

 

Plus he's like having an extra coach out there. At his age he's seen every type of defense and been in every possible situation countless times so he must help an absolute ***** load with the game plan. 

 

How many other QBs in the league can bring all that to the table? None.

 

I can't stand the guy but the facts are undeniable 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Bucs D was 6th.  Indy 8th. Miami 20th...so not statistically better than  the Bucs.

 

As for the "3 JV players" you keep repeating, missing was Fisher--the other 4 were the same line that faced the Bills 2 weeks ago....and that the Bills D could not handle very well.  

 

And if you think the Bills O-line/Matador lineup that got spanked by the Chiefs front 7 would have done better against White/Suh/JPP/Barrett/David....lol, there's no reason to believe that.  It would been a bloodbath for Josh.  

 

 

1) in terms of the defenses we beat, I guess you can look at either best scoring defenses or best yardage defenses. Tampa had the 6th best yardage defense. The Bills beat the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, and 10 yardage defenses. Tampa had the 8th best scoring defense. The Bills beat the 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 scoring defenses. They beat the 6 (Miami) and 7 (New England) ones twice. 
 

2) it was obvious to everyone who watched that game, that the wholesale shuffling of that chiefs oline was a total disaster for the chiefs. It was a jailbreak from the snap. Don’t get me Wrong— the Bucs front 4 is great. But not that great. They did great against the Packers (also Missing their starting LT), but it wasn’t a jailbreak from the snap, and the pack scored 26 points and Rodgers threw for 350 yards. The chiefs oline was plain horrendous.  Our starting oline was great against very strong defensive lines this year. That they had a bad game against KC doesn’t make them bad or establish that they would have been overrun by the Bucs. In fact, I would argue that the problem against KC was the disguised pressure, which we couldn’t adjust to from a protection standpoint. The Bucs didn’t disguise nearly as much. 
 

3) In the end, the NFL is not a logic game. You can’t say Bucs > KC, and KC > Buffalo, therefore Bucs > Buffalo.  This is a matchup league. I think we match up better against Tampa Bay. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

1) in terms of the defenses we beat, I guess you can look at either best scoring defenses or best yardage defenses. Tampa had the 6th best yardage defense. The Bills beat the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, and 10 yardage defenses. Tampa had the 8th best scoring defense. The Bills beat the 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 scoring defenses. They beat the 6 (Miami) and 7 (New England) ones twice. 
 

2) it was obvious to everyone who watched that game, that the wholesale shuffling of that chiefs oline was a total disaster for the chiefs. It was a jailbreak from the snap. Don’t get me Wrong— the Bucs front 4 is great. But not that great. They did great against the Packers (also Missing their starting LT), but it wasn’t a jailbreak from the snap, and the pack scored 26 points and Rodgers threw for 350 yards. The chiefs oline was plain horrendous.  Our starting oline was great against very strong defensive lines this year. That they had a bad game against KC doesn’t make them bad or establish that they would have been overrun by the Bucs. In fact, I would argue that the problem against KC was the disguised pressure, which we couldn’t adjust to from a protection standpoint. The Bucs didn’t disguise nearly as much. 
 

3) In the end, the NFL is not a logic game. You can’t say Bucs > KC, and KC > Buffalo, therefore Bucs > Buffalo.  This is a matchup league. I think we match up better against Tampa Bay. 

 

Great post.

 

An additional point is that so far in the film, I am seeing open checkdown guys.  It seems to be a lesson that Josh has to learn, and learn, and relearn, but hopefully coming off a game where it seems to me there were checkdown guys open for yardage IF HE MADE HIS CHOICE QUICKLY, it seems possible Josh would have adapted.

 

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Great post.

 

An additional point is that so far in the film, I am seeing open checkdown guys.  It seems to be a lesson that Josh has to learn, and learn, and relearn, but hopefully coming off a game where it seems to me there were checkdown guys open for yardage IF HE MADE HIS CHOICE QUICKLY, it seems possible Josh would have adapted.

 

 

Thanks! 
 

I will say that a lot of us in the GDT, were (virtually) yelling for him to take the check downs. What I don’t understand is why aren’t the coaches in his ear during the game a bit more on that? 

[Einstein's Dog]

4 hours ago, papazoid said:

TB defense holding KC to 9 points.....that's amazing....that's what won this game.

 

TB offense is loaded with talent too....

 

could 20 other QB's have scored 10 or more points, in this one game,  if the only change was Brady out and they are in ??

 

 

If you take Brady out, then KC scores more than 9.  The great first half by Brady put the game script such that KC was so far down, and fearful that more were going to be scored, that they did not take field goals multiple times.

[C.Biscuit97]

Brady isn’t close to the most talented qb out there. It was hardly dominate. But at some point, it’s more than just a coincidence. He is the Patriot/ Buc way. He is the standard and evaluates franchises. Guys can’t half ass if with Brady. I see a lot of that in Allen.