Chiefs vs Bills rebuild comparison

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

 

Haha. 

You knew the correct arguments and you failed to follow them!

[JGMcD2]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You knew the correct arguments and you failed to follow them!

I want to make sure we get this timeline right. 
 

The McDermott Bills are behind the Reid Chiefs because it took the Chiefs 5 years to find a franchise QB and 6 to make an AFC Championship game. It took the Bills 1 year to find a franchise QB and 4 to make an AFC Championship game. The Chiefs also had 4 drafts prior to McDermott even arriving where they acquired players like Kelce, Jones and Tyreek Hill who are their top players. 
 

But somehow they’re behind? Basically they’re penalized for finding a really good QB earlier than KC did? 

Edited February 9, 2021 by JGMcD2

[FireChans]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

I want to make sure we get this timeline right. 
 

The McDermott Bills are behind the Reid Chiefs because it took the Chiefs 5 years to find a franchise QB and 6 to make an AFC Championship game. It took the Bills 1 year to find a franchise QB and 4 to make an AFC Championship game. The Chiefs also had 4 drafts prior to McDermott even arriving where they acquired players like Kelce, Jones and Tyreek Hill who are their top players. 
 

But somehow they’re behind? 

The timeline is Reid/Mahomes vs McD/Allen.

 

The coach and franchise QB are intrinsically linked when discussing championship windows.

 

Unfortunately, they have jumped through the window before us.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Sorry, man, that's just a dumb idea.

 

Sure, if you want to judge Marrone and Whaley negatively ... hey, that's totally fair. You'll get a bit of an argument, but only from a relatively few folks.

 

But you have to stretch yourself like you're being racked, drawn and quartered to pretend that McDermott and Beane can be judged in any way by what the Bills did in 2013 to 2017. They can not, by any even slightly logical standard.

 

Comparing the first four years of this regime to the first four years of the Chiefs, makes total sense, as long as you acknowledge that McDermott and Beane rebuilt, while Reid reloaded.

 

And yes, McDermott traded away the pick that became Mahomes. He's made it clear several times since that he simply didn't have time to do what was necessary here as a new coach with a GM he didn't trust to also do the work necessary to vet those QBs. Hard to imagine why McDermott didn't trust Whaley to pick his QB when Whaley had gone all out saying he'd been in on the EJ choice ... why wouldn't you let the guy who apparently chose EJ, let that Doug Whaley choose the QB who would define your legacy with the team?

 

And a team with Josh Allen on it doesn't have to worry much about any earlier QB decisions.

 

Yeah, Whaley - Marrone sucked.

 

But the new regime is only four years old and appears to have pulled off an extremely successful rebuild and be heading in the right direction even faster than Reid did. After Reid's first four years he hadn't reached the Conference championship.

 

 

 

 

It's not an idea.......it's the fact of the matter.   

 

Furthermore........I left out the fact that the Chiefs and Bills were the two teams vying to acquire Alex Smith.........and mind you, this is just months after Smith lead the 49ers offense to 630 yards of offense in a game against the Bills.    Obviously still a Bills team record for most yards allowed.   

 

The Chiefs won that duel too by coughing up an extra second round pick which at the time got everyone's backs up on TSW because they thought the Chiefs had hurt themselves overpaying and Buddy was right not to.    

 

Reid is 5-1 against the Bills since he came to KC..........and 2-0 when it comes to acquiring good/great QB's at the Bills expense.

 

Like I said........the Bills roster is not younger than the Chiefs......and any notion that it takes MORE than 4 years in a job for a HC to build up a program enough to win a Super Bowl is utter nonsense.

 

In the free agency era its MUCH more common for a coach to win their first SB with that organization within their first 4 years than it is AFTER.

 

There are reasons for that.........re-builds can get over-ripe on the vine in the salary cap era.......and coaches who can't adapt their schemes(perhaps like McDermott with his defense this season) start seeing diminishing returns.

 

Reid is still thriving because he adapts.........not because his system has traction now that he has been there 8 years.

 

It's definitely one of those Sal Capaccio "what fans don't understand" topics apparently.

 

[JGMcD2]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The timeline is Reid/Mahomes vs McD/Allen.

 

The coach and franchise QB are intrinsically linked when discussing championship windows.

 

Unfortunately, they have jumped through the window before us.

That’s a different timeline than the OP was discussing. It’s a valid point, but irrelevant related to the discussion the OP was starting. He’s comparing the path the Bills have taken to where they are to the path Chiefs took to get to the point where they are.

 

So again, you’re penalizing Buffalo for finding a franchise QB before KC. Reid got 4 years to accumulate talent and screw around with Alex Smith before McDermott even walked through the door in Buffalo. 
 

Essentially your argument is Reid Chiefs > McDermott Bills because Reid Chiefs had a 4 year head start on finding the talent they wanted. 

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Like I said........the Bills roster is not younger than the Chiefs......and any notion that it takes MORE than 4 years in a job for a HC to build up a program enough to win a Super Bowl is utter nonsense.

It took KC under Reid 7 years?
 

6 to reach an AFCCG. 

 

4 to reach an AFCCG for Buffalo. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by JGMcD2

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s a different timeline than the OP was discussing. It’s a valid point, but irrelevant related to the discussion the OP was starting. He’s comparing the path the Bills have taken to where they are to the path Chiefs took to get to the point where they are.

 

So again, you’re penalizing Buffalo for finding a franchise QB before KC. Reid got 4 years to accumulate talent and screw around with Alex Smith before McDermott even walked through the door in Buffalo. 
 

Essentially your argument is Reid Chiefs > McDermott Bills because Reid Chiefs had a 4 year head start on finding the talent they wanted. 

It took KC 7 years? 

But that point is silly.

 

There are zero NFL Front Offices that are comparing their team to the 2015 Chiefs. They don't care.

 

I'm not penalizing anybody. All I care about is who is going to win the SuperBowl next year. KC has a better chance. They have a better team.

[JGMcD2]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

But that point is silly.

 

There are zero NFL Front Offices that are comparing their team to the 2015 Chiefs. They don't care.

 

I'm not penalizing anybody. All I care about is who is going to win the SuperBowl next year. KC has a better chance. They have a better team.

How is it silly?
 

You’re going to B word about the Bills because they’re competitive and seen as one of the Super Bowl favorites and got to that point in a shorter amount of time than the odds on favorite? 
 

Nobody is comparing teams, they’re comparing the steps they took to being a Super Bowl contender. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by JGMcD2

[chongli]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

More interesting to me is how Tampa Bay almost silently put together a hell of a roster the past 6-7 years and wouldn’t even had a playoff appearance to show for it without Brady.  

 

Good point, but it was mostly their D. Gronk, Brown, Fournette, and Brady didn't come until last season. As for Evan, the Bills could have drafted him (or Mack), but instead chose Sammy. Thanks Doug.

Edited February 9, 2021 by chongli

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

It’s probably worth mentioning that Reid inherited a team that finished 2-14 before he was hired. 
 

Reid and McD essentially tore their teams down to the studs and both have done a fantastic job in building things back up. 

They were 2-14, but they still had 6-7 pro bowlers on that roster. Adding Alex Smith in trade and a future probowl LT with the 1st pick in the draft were huge for that offense. Reid really didn’t tear down that roster. He added a couple big chips (QB & LT) and dramatically improved the coaching for a quick turnaround. Bieniemy aside, there were three other future head coaches and a former HC (Childress) on the offensive staff Reid brought in. That 2-14 team drastically underperformed when you consider their talent level under Crennel’s extended interim audition. It’s a great example for what coaching and improvement at the most valuable positions can do for success. 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

How is it silly?
 

You’re going to B word about the Bills because they’re competitive and seen as one of the Super Bowl favorites and got to that point in a shorter amount of time than the odds on favorite? 
 

Nobody is comparing teams, they’re comparing the steps they took to being competitive. 

You seem to be taking this a bit personally. 
 

it’s just an irrelevant dopey point. 
 

The Packers aren’t saying “keep it in perspective guys! Matt LeFleur found his franchise QB on day 1 and has already gotten further than the 2015 Chiefs!”

 

It’s irrelevant.

[JGMcD2]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You seem to be taking this a bit personally. 
 

it’s just an irrelevant dopey point. 
 

The Packers aren’t saying “keep it in perspective guys! Matt LeFleur found his franchise QB on day 1 and has already gotten further than the 2015 Chiefs!”

 

It’s irrelevant.

You, @BADOLBILZ and @Mr. WEO.

 

Has anyone ever seen you guys together all at once? I swear you’re the same guy. 

[Inigo Montoya]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

We are behind their timeline.

 

Andy Reid found his franchise QB and won a Super Bowl in his third season (before he needed to be paid). We found our franchise QB and have not won a Super Bowl in his third season.

 

Our cap situation is not much better than there's and they have a better roster than ours.  We are a bridesmaid.

 

Respectfully disagree FireChans

 

I don't think your position that the clock for the Chiefs starts the day they drafted Mahomes, and the clock starts for the Bills the day they drafted Allen is reasonable.  It's not just about the QB.  Football is still a team sport, and while the QB position is the most important, we just watched the best QB in the NFL lose the Super Bowl because he had no O-Line in front of him.  

 

It Reid took 7 years to build a Super Bowl winning roster in KC.  That roster, without Mahomes starting at QB, had been in the playoffs four of the previous five seasons.  It was a deep, talented roster with experienced coaches and Mahomes pushed them over the top. 

 

We are in year four of the McDermott / Beane regime and they put together a roster that made it to the AFC Championship game.  It took Andy Reid six seasons to get a roster into the AFC Championship game for the first time.  By that standard, McDermott and Beane are father along than Andy Reid was at year four of their respective regimes, and that's how I see it.

 

We might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

🍻

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Inigo Montoya

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Respectfully disagree FireChans

 

I don't think your position that the clock for the Chiefs starts the day they drafted Mahomes, and the clock starts for the Bills the day they drafted Allen is reasonable.  It's not just about the QB.  Football is still a team sport, and while the QB position is the most important, we just watched the best QB in the NFL lose the Super Bowl because he had no O-Line in front of him.  

 

It Reid took 7 years to build a Super Bowl winning roster in KC.  That roster, without Mahomes starting at QB, had been in the playoffs four of the previous five seasons.  It was a deep, talented roster with experienced coaches and Mahomes pushed them over the top. 

 

We are in year four of the McDermott / Beane regime and they put together a roster that made it to the AFC Championship game.  It took Andy Reid six seasons to get a roster into the AFC Championship game for the first time.  By that standard, McDermott and Beane are father along than Andy Reid was at year four of their respective regimes, and that's how I see it.

 

We might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

🍻

 

 

 

Ultimately this thread is just meaningless fluff discussion.

 

The two teams have elite level starting QB's who have both started in the league for 3 seasons but have had vastly different results.

 

Going forward they have similar concerns with regard to their roster construction and salary cap concerns.

 

One team isn't automatically more likely to take a step forward or backward than the other just because of how long the coach has been there.........they both will need to adapt.

 

If you want to try to draw timelines the one that matters includes HOW they got where they are......which starts with Andy Reid arriving in KC and helping shape what Buffalo is now by snatching up Alex Smith, winning games that kept the Bills out of the playoffs and then fleecing the Bills for Patrick Mahomes.   And yes, Tre White and Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes is a fleecing. 

 

None of which is necessarily important going forward.........other than the fact that it's been one-sided in favor of the Chiefs to this point and they have momentum after two beatings they administered to the Bills this season. 

[Mr. WEO]

12 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

You, @BADOLBILZ and @Mr. WEO.

 

Has anyone ever seen you guys together all at once? I swear you’re the same guy. 

 

Given that Mahomes is a year older than Josh, and has, of course, had another year to "grow into his body", it should come as no surprise why he was an All Pro in his first year as starter and has, since then, had 2  SB seasons (and a ring and an MVP).

 

Josh may never catch up unless he can age at a more accelerated rate, correct?

 

The good news is that, because he was drafted at #7 (instead of #10) he is more "elite", but perhaps not "genetically superior".

 

 

With that contribution, could probably /thread, no?

 

You're all welcome.

[JGMcD2]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Given that Mahomes is a year older than Josh, and has, of course, had another year to "grow into his body", it should come as no surprise why he was an All Pro in his first year as starter and has, since then, had 2  SB seasons (and a ring and an MVP).

 

Josh may never catch up unless he can age at a more accelerated rate, correct?

 

The good news is that, because he was drafted at #7 (instead of #10) he is more "elite", but perhaps not "genetically superior".

 

 

With that contribution, could probably /thread, no?

 

You're all welcome.

Please don’t ever change. 
 

As much as you irritate me, I do like you. 

[Inigo Montoya]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Ultimately this thread is just meaningless fluff discussion.

 

 

 

I took me an hour to put together this "meaningless" thread last evening just so you would have something to criticize this morning with your breakfast.

 

You're welcome....

 

😉

 

[FieldGeneral]

We have glaring holes at DT, DE, CB, RB, and LB. 

[TheFunPolice]

If Allen wins a Super Bowl next year he'll have as many SB rings as Mahomes, Brees, and Rodgers. 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

 

I took me an hour to put together this "meaningless" thread last evening just so you would have something to criticize this morning with your breakfast.

 

You're welcome....

 

😉

 

 

 

You want to make yourself feel better about the seeming disparity between the two teams by finding a linear reason why it "might" change.

 

Success in the NFL isn't simply linear though.........the Chiefs could make bad personnel decisions that set them back and the Bills could make good ones that propel them......or simply Mahomes could blow out a knee next year and the Bills could be provided with a much clearer path to a SB........which if they won nobody would put an asterisk on.

 

There are lots of ways the Bills could overtake the Chiefs.......more experience in their "re-build" makes no sense though.    If there are more than 5-6 Bills players that were on the AFCCG roster that are still on this 53 man roster in 4 years later it will be a surprise.   You don't stack cheese in the NFL you gotta' be constantly changing and adapting.    

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not an idea.......it's the fact of the matter.   

 

Furthermore........I left out the fact that the Chiefs and Bills were the two teams vying to acquire Alex Smith.........and mind you, this is just months after Smith lead the 49ers offense to 630 yards of offense in a game against the Bills.    Obviously still a Bills team record for most yards allowed.   

 

The Chiefs won that duel too by coughing up an extra second round pick which at the time got everyone's backs up on TSW because they thought the Chiefs had hurt themselves overpaying and Buddy was right not to.    

 

Reid is 5-1 against the Bills since he came to KC..........and 2-0 when it comes to acquiring good/great QB's at the Bills expense.

 

Like I said........the Bills roster is not younger than the Chiefs......and any notion that it takes MORE than 4 years in a job for a HC to build up a program enough to win a Super Bowl is utter nonsense.

 

In the free agency era its MUCH more common for a coach to win their first SB with that organization within their first 4 years than it is AFTER.

 

There are reasons for that.........re-builds can get over-ripe on the vine in the salary cap era.......and coaches who can't adapt their schemes(perhaps like McDermott with his defense this season) start seeing diminishing returns.

 

Reid is still thriving because he adapts.........not because his system has traction now that he has been there 8 years.

 

It's definitely one of those Sal Capaccio "what fans don't understand" topics apparently.

 

 

I think you slightly misremember on the bolded. The reason the Chiefs won the race to Smith was because they had the #1 pick in the 2nd round and as such San Fran wanted two seconds plus another pick from the Bills to match that (think it was our 2013 4th from memory) and the consensus was Buddy was smart not to give up the extra pick. That pick turned into the first bad Duke Williams we had.... the one who played safety. 

 

I agree on the it doesn't take more than 4 years to rebuild into a Superbowl team. That is absolutely true. That is why I felt the Bills window was open this year. It also doesn't close this year though. The Bills are going to have other chances to make and win the Superbowl over the next 4 years with the way their roster is constructed so long as what we saw from Josh this year is not a one off (I have no reason to believe it will be). Beyond that is harder to predict.