Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: It would be a mistake to pick it up. The franchise tag is only like $2M more and then you don't have the full guarantee permanently fixed on your cap in the event that he suffers an injury and misses the 2023 season altogether. I thought Franchise tags were fully guaranteed for injury?
BADOLBILZ Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: I thought Franchise tags were fully guaranteed for injury? They are but they wouldn't have to exercise a franchise tag until next offseason.........giving them another full year to evaluate him for at most a couple million more. The 5th year option becomes fully guaranteed on May 3 of this year. 5th year options used to be only guaranteed for injury when first picked up...........you could cut that player if they had a bad year 4 but were healthy........now you are stuck with them. Having a $11M-$12M fully guaranteed 2022 salary also doesn't help you sign him to a reasonable long term deal if he doesn't play lights out next year. Let's say you want to sign him for 3 years and $30M with $15M gtd.........he already HAS almost that much gtd in just 1 year. Better off dangling the carrot, IMO..........then if he continues to be just a modest producer and they still want to keep him they aren't competing against their own 5th year option #. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Just now, BADOLBILZ said: They are but they wouldn't have to exercise a franchise tag until next offseason.........giving them another full year to evaluate him for at most a couple million more. The 5th year option becomes fully guaranteed on May 3 of this year. 5th year options used to be only guaranteed for injury when first picked up...........you could cut that player if they had a bad year 4 but were healthy........now you are stuck with them. Having a $11M-$12M fully guaranteed 2022 salary also doesn't help you sign him to a reasonable long term deal if he doesn't play lights out next year. Let's say you want to sign him for 3 years and $30M with $15M gtd.........he already HAS almost that much gtd in just 1 year. Better off dangling the carrot, IMO..........then if he continues to be just a modest producer and they still want to keep him they aren't competing against their own 5th year option #. I see your point, makes sense
DJB Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 If Edmunds played WLB and we had a better run stuffing MLB I think everyone would love him. But he's not. And I'm not a fan of him at MLB at all. He plays soft, lacks intensity and killer instinct and just isn't good enough in the run game. 1
Eastport bills Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Why is it important to break down this guy's shortcomings when his assets are special. His overall performance has not hurt the defense to the point that Beane and Sean wants him out. If he takes a step forward with improved D-line play, we could be looking at elite inside LB play. He was exposed by Mahomes and co., but every LB group the last 2 years could say the same. Coaching or lack there of can be blamed for these problems as well. Edmunds will have a great career no matter who its for.
BADOLBILZ Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, Eastport bills said: Why is it important to break down this guy's shortcomings when his assets are special. His overall performance has not hurt the defense to the point that Beane and Sean wants him out. If he takes a step forward with improved D-line play, we could be looking at elite inside LB play. He was exposed by Mahomes and co., but every LB group the last 2 years could say the same. Coaching or lack there of can be blamed for these problems as well. Edmunds will have a great career no matter who its for. First of all........his evaluation has nothing to do with Mahomes......his critics cited the same issues for 3 seasons now.......well before the Chiefs games. What does he do that is "special"? I don't want to invoke the old London Fletcher "all he does is tackle guys 10 yards downfield" mantra but the only thing Edmunds is really good at is tackling ball carriers from the side........which is often to say "after" the offensive play call has at least achieved it's minimum desired result. He simply doesn't make plays. Last season he had 0 interceptions, 3 passes defensed and 4 TFL. That is woeful. He hasn't even forced or recovered a fumble since his rookie year! If he were in the NFC he wouldn't be sniffing a pro bowl and without those nods he would be under a lot more scrutiny for not making plays. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 20 minutes ago, Eastport bills said: Why is it important to break down this guy's shortcomings when his assets are special. His overall performance has not hurt the defense to the point that Beane and Sean wants him out. If he takes a step forward with improved D-line play, we could be looking at elite inside LB play. He was exposed by Mahomes and co., but every LB group the last 2 years could say the same. Coaching or lack there of can be blamed for these problems as well. Edmunds will have a great career no matter who its for. This could just be me, but I view "his assets are special" juxtaposed with "his overall performance has not hurt the defense...." as a bit contradictory? The bottom line is that, even with our QB still on his rookie contract, we lacked the cap space to pursue top defensive FA. Thus, we are counting on the top draft picks we've made on defense to contribute strongly, not simply to "not hurt the defense" but to step up and take it to a higher level. That means we need AJ Epenesa (2, 2021), Ed Oliver (1, #9, 2019), Tremaine Edmunds (1, #16, 2018), and Harrison Phillips (3, 2018) to step up and form a defensive core we can build around along with Tre' White. Our defense finished the year #16 on points. They had some stellar, impressive moments, but overall the defense needs to take a step for the team to take a step. To do that, Edmunds needs to actively HELP the defense be great, not just "not hurt the defense to the point they want him out". 2 2
Eastport bills Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This could just be me, but I view "his assets are special" juxtaposed with "his overall performance has not hurt the defense...." as a bit contradictory? The bottom line is that, even with our QB still on his rookie contract, we lacked the cap space to pursue top defensive FA. Thus, we are counting on the top draft picks we've made on defense to contribute strongly, not simply to "not hurt the defense" but to step up and take it to a higher level. That means we need AJ Epenesa (2, 2021), Ed Oliver (1, #9, 2019), Tremaine Edmunds (1, #16, 2018), and Harrison Phillips (3, 2018) to step up and form a defensive core we can build around along with Tre' White. Our defense finished the year #16 on points. They had some stellar, impressive moments, but overall the defense needs to take a step for the team to take a step. To do that, Edmunds needs to actively HELP the defense be great, not just "not hurt the defense to the point they want him out". OK, I understand you think Edmunds replacement will take the defense to the next level. You could scrutinize Milano's underperformance and missed games as reasons for concernas well.The truth is with Edmunds on his rookie deal and the D-line additions being less than productive, how is Edmunds, with elite speed, elite wingspan and probably playing in a scheme not putting him in the best position to succeed, being blamed for last years step backwards. As I remember, 2019 ,with Phillips and Lawson getting pressure, the defense with Edmunds was top 5. White was abused the last 2 postseason by Hopkins and Hill. Is this pro bowl corner holding the team back? Edmunds is a young kid who is on the field all the time,calling signals,with responsibilities and has as high a ceiling as any inside backer in football. He's 22 and will get rich in FA. Let's stop pointing fingers at one guy.
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This could just be me, but I view "his assets are special" juxtaposed with "his overall performance has not hurt the defense...." as a bit contradictory? The bottom line is that, even with our QB still on his rookie contract, we lacked the cap space to pursue top defensive FA. Thus, we are counting on the top draft picks we've made on defense to contribute strongly, not simply to "not hurt the defense" but to step up and take it to a higher level. That means we need AJ Epenesa (2, 2021), Ed Oliver (1, #9, 2019), Tremaine Edmunds (1, #16, 2018), and Harrison Phillips (3, 2018) to step up and form a defensive core we can build around along with Tre' White. Our defense finished the year #16 on points. They had some stellar, impressive moments, but overall the defense needs to take a step for the team to take a step. To do that, Edmunds needs to actively HELP the defense be great, not just "not hurt the defense to the point they want him out". This. It feels like there is a constant desire for everyone to "pick a side" on the Edmunds debate when the reality is somewhat in the middle. He took a big step rookie year to year 2, but then he took a step back last year and he was inconsistent at best. For the 16th pick of the draft "net neutral" is not really enough. He has to be making more plays than he is missing to help the defense step back up into the top 10. Ed Oliver the same. He was a little more consistent than Edmunds in 2020 but still had too many down moments where he disappeared for stretches of games. AJ I give a bit more of a pass to because he was a rook with no proper off season and trying to change his body composition at the team's request but he has to take a step in 2020 as well. All three of them need to improve. To add I have little hope left for Harrison Phillips after last year... maybe that's harsh but it is how I feel. Some of his performances were atrocious. 4
Eastport bills Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 56 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: First of all........his evaluation has nothing to do with Mahomes......his critics cited the same issues for 3 seasons now.......well before the Chiefs games. What does he do that is "special"? I don't want to invoke the old London Fletcher "all he does is tackle guys 10 yards downfield" mantra but the only thing Edmunds is really good at is tackling ball carriers from the side........which is often to say "after" the offensive play call has at least achieved it's minimum desired result. He simply doesn't make plays. Last season he had 0 interceptions, 3 passes defensed and 4 TFL. That is woeful. He hasn't even forced or recovered a fumble since his rookie year! If he were in the NFC he wouldn't be sniffing a pro bowl and without those nods he would be under a lot more scrutiny for not making plays. If it doesn't have anything to do with Mahomes, what are you knitpicking about. They got to the AFC championship game besting the Colts and Ravens in the process. The Ravens game was won by the defense. Lamar was shut down by an underachieving D-line and speed at the 2nd level. 2019 was the year we had a top 5 defense in football with Edmunds in the middle. All of a sudden Edmunds is the problem. What a tough room.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: This. It feels like there is a constant desire for everyone to "pick a side" on the Edmunds debate when the reality is somewhat in the middle. He took a big step rookie year to year 2, but then he took a step back last year and he was inconsistent at best. For the 16th pick of the draft "net neutral" is not really enough. He has to be making more plays than he is missing to help the defense step back up into the top 10. Ed Oliver the same. He was a little more consistent than Edmunds in 2020 but still had too many down moments where he disappeared for stretches of games. AJ I give a bit more of a pass to because he was a rook with no proper off season and trying to change his body composition at the team's request but he has to take a step in 2020 as well. All three of them need to improve. To add I have little hope left for Harrison Phillips after last year... maybe that's harsh but it is how I feel. Some of his performances were atrocious. Your feelings are your own, but Harrison Phillips had some great performances to go with his atrocious ones, and McDermott pretty much admitted post-season he had been benched because he needed more rehab. The Bills have been pretty good with managing injuries but for whatever reason they seemed to let a bunch of guys play on D who should not have been on the field during the season - Edmunds, Phillips, and Milano - and to continue the experiment a few games too long. IMO they also let a couple guys play during the AFCCG who should have had a seat, notably Gabe Davis and possibly Vernon Butler. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: Your feelings are your own, but Harrison Phillips had some great performances to go with his atrocious ones, and McDermott pretty much admitted post-season he had been benched because he needed more rehab. The Bills have been pretty good with managing injuries but for whatever reason they seemed to let a bunch of guys play on D who should not have been on the field during the season - Edmunds, Phillips, and Milano - and to continue the experiment a few games too long. IMO they also let a couple guys play during the AFCCG who should have had a seat, notably Gabe Davis and possibly Vernon Butler. You can give him the benefit of the doubt, for sure. I am just more sceptical that his performance issues were all injury related.
Shaw66 Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 50 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This could just be me, but I view "his assets are special" juxtaposed with "his overall performance has not hurt the defense...." as a bit contradictory? The bottom line is that, even with our QB still on his rookie contract, we lacked the cap space to pursue top defensive FA. Thus, we are counting on the top draft picks we've made on defense to contribute strongly, not simply to "not hurt the defense" but to step up and take it to a higher level. That means we need AJ Epenesa (2, 2021), Ed Oliver (1, #9, 2019), Tremaine Edmunds (1, #16, 2018), and Harrison Phillips (3, 2018) to step up and form a defensive core we can build around along with Tre' White. Our defense finished the year #16 on points. They had some stellar, impressive moments, but overall the defense needs to take a step for the team to take a step. To do that, Edmunds needs to actively HELP the defense be great, not just "not hurt the defense to the point they want him out". This is a really good point. Beane's drafting is on the line here - there's a lot of big draft capital invested in the defense, and it needs to perform better than it has. As for Edmunds, I'm still an Edmunds supporter, for several reasons. I agree with some of the complaints about him. My biggest complaint is that he isn't as physical as the MLB should be. It's the single biggest thing that makes him different from Keuchly, whom I consider to be the ideal MLB. Keuchly is a solid, sure tackler; Edmunds still plays like he's done his job so long as he's in the place where he's supposed to be. I don't agree so much about "instincts" and similar comments that suggest that he's often in the wrong place. If he's in the wrong place often, how can he possibly be accumulating the tackle stats he has? If he's in the wrong place more often than other MLBs, then if he corrected that flaw, he would have tackle stats that would be truly mind-bending. He's in a lot of tackles, which is what he's supposed to be. I criticized him a lot in his rookie about hitting the wrong gap. I think he's improved tremendously in that respect. He now understands his role, and reads his gaps much better. Whether he has "instincts," I don't know, but he's smart and dedicated, and year after year he will improve in that category. People complain about his getting "beat" often in pass coverage. In the Championship game, KC clearly took advantage of the Bills defensive scheme, which expects Edmunds to cover a lot of ground. Mahomes just waited for Edmunds to commit to one area, and then he threw to another. It wasn't Edmunds making bad decisions - it was Mahomes responding to Edmunds' decision. That's a scheme problem, not Edmunds problem. Plus, we only see the plays when Edmunds gets beat. We don't see the plays where Edmunds presence, where his speed and length, cause the QB to go elsewhere with the ball. That's a huge impact on the defense that is not reflected at all in the stats. I think what the Bills have is a guy who right now is better than the average NFL MLB, and in some ways much better, because no other MLB impacts the passing offense the way he does. Statistically, he's better than average in tackles. He's young and continuing to learn and to grow. The question is, as it always is, can the Bills do better with someone else? The answer is that finding someone better is not going to be easy. The notion that Preston Brown was somehow better is laughable - he was a serious liability in the passing game. You can't have the best player in the league at every position; having an above-average MLB who likely will continue to improve is a good thing and something not to be discarded lightly. I wouldn't go looking for Edmunds' replacement - if one came along, sure, I'd take him, but for now, I keep Edmunds and I exercise the 5th year option. Then I see what market is like when he becomes eligible for free agency. I'll have Allen's deal done by then, and I'll know more Edmunds.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: People complain about his getting "beat" often in pass coverage. In the Championship game, KC clearly took advantage of the Bills defensive scheme, which expects Edmunds to cover a lot of ground. Mahomes just waited for Edmunds to commit to one area, and then he threw to another. It wasn't Edmunds making bad decisions - it was Mahomes responding to Edmunds' decision. That's a scheme problem, not Edmunds problem. I think it goes further than that. The Bills defensive scheme relies upon "zone eyes" - the defenders make decisions by reading the QB's eyes. Mahomes is the master of "Lying Eyes". He will manipulate the defenders into making decisions based upon his eyes, then throw where they aren't. The Bills D needs to solve that.
Shaw66 Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: This. It feels like there is a constant desire for everyone to "pick a side" on the Edmunds debate when the reality is somewhat in the middle. He took a big step rookie year to year 2, but then he took a step back last year and he was inconsistent at best. For the 16th pick of the draft "net neutral" is not really enough. He has to be making more plays than he is missing to help the defense step back up into the top 10. Ed Oliver the same. He was a little more consistent than Edmunds in 2020 but still had too many down moments where he disappeared for stretches of games. AJ I give a bit more of a pass to because he was a rook with no proper off season and trying to change his body composition at the team's request but he has to take a step in 2020 as well. All three of them need to improve. To add I have little hope left for Harrison Phillips after last year... maybe that's harsh but it is how I feel. Some of his performances were atrocious. My pet peeve: Draft position is irrelevant once you hit the field. Where Edmunds was drafted has nothing to do with whether the Bills keep him. It's all about how he contributes to the team, how he fits the defense, whether he can be replaced, etc. Kyle Williams didn't start because he was outplaying a 5th round pick, and Aaron Maybin didn't get cut because he underplayed a #9 overall. You play or don't play if you're good enough or not, regardless of where you're drafted. Edmunds future has nothing to do with where he was picked. I continue to think that we don't completely understand how McDermott values Edmunds in the defense. I suspect, but I don't know, that Edmunds' mobility in pass defense is worth a lot more to McD than it is to the rest of us. I think McD expects Edmunds to continue to learn the things that he needs to learn. It's the old adage about you can't teach speed. Or height. There just aren't a whole of MLBs out there who combine Edmunds' size and speed, and that is, I think, worth a lot to McD.
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I continue to think that we don't completely understand how McDermott values Edmunds in the defense. I suspect, but I don't know, that Edmunds' mobility in pass defense is worth a lot more to McD than it is to the rest of us. I think McD expects Edmunds to continue to learn the things that he needs to learn. It's the old adage about you can't teach speed. Or height. There just aren't a whole of MLBs out there who combine Edmunds' size and speed, and that is, I think, worth a lot to McD. Agree completely. Said it earlier. Whatever we fans may or may not think I believe the regime are totally committed to him and to him at the MLB spot.
BADOLBILZ Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: This. It feels like there is a constant desire for everyone to "pick a side" on the Edmunds debate when the reality is somewhat in the middle. He took a big step rookie year to year 2, but then he took a step back last year and he was inconsistent at best. For the 16th pick of the draft "net neutral" is not really enough. He has to be making more plays than he is missing to help the defense step back up into the top 10. Ed Oliver the same. He was a little more consistent than Edmunds in 2020 but still had too many down moments where he disappeared for stretches of games. AJ I give a bit more of a pass to because he was a rook with no proper off season and trying to change his body composition at the team's request but he has to take a step in 2020 as well. All three of them need to improve. To add I have little hope left for Harrison Phillips after last year... maybe that's harsh but it is how I feel. Some of his performances were atrocious. I don't think it's as "in the middle" as you think. He didn't actually take a step up in year 2.........any inroads he made due to experience were offset by the tentativeness that set in and the lack of plays made. The guy simply doesn't make plays. You can't deny it. Amazing stat: Tremaine Edmunds hasn't forced or recovered a single fumble in his last 41 regular season games! And it's not like he raises his game in the playoffs.........which might indicate untapped potential.........he's actually a worse player in big games.
Shaw66 Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think it goes further than that. The Bills defensive scheme relies upon "zone eyes" - the defenders make decisions by reading the QB's eyes. Mahomes is the master of "Lying Eyes". He will manipulate the defenders into making decisions based upon his eyes, then throw where they aren't. The Bills D needs to solve that. I agree. It's a constant chess game with the best QBs, and KC and Mahomes clearly won the chess game in the Championship game. Now, it's still true that when McD and Frazier figure out the next moves, Edmunds has to be able to make them, and that remains to be seen. And there's another piece to this, that others have talked about. McD is very clear that his D requires a lot of pressure on the QB from the front four. McD doesn't want to be blitzing, because he wants Milano and Edmunds covering all the space they do. That's why Gunner's point about Oliver and Epenesa and Philips is important. There's three high picks on the defensive line that really need to show more than we've seen. So far as I was concerned, the biggest difference between the AFC Championship game and the Super Bowl was Tampa's ferocious pass rush, pass rush that game from the front four. Pressure on great QBs is the only solution, and it has to be pressure generated without blitzing all the time. 1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said: I don't think it's as "in the middle" as you think. He didn't actually take a step up in year 2.........any inroads he made due to experience were offset by the tentativeness that set in and the lack of plays made. The guy simply doesn't make plays. You can't deny it. Amazing stat: Tremaine Edmunds hasn't forced or recovered a single fumble in his last 41 regular season games! And it's not like he raises his game in the playoffs.........which might indicate untapped potential.........he's actually a worse player in big games. Bado, he was a lot better in year 2. Clearly better. But I agree about play making. He's been athletic enough to get his hands on the ball, but not athletic enough to get possession. It's consistent with what I said about him a couple minutes ago - he's really good at being in the area, but he isn't as good at actually closing the deal. Still, my guess is that when you add up all the pluses and minuses, he's a top 10 MLB - in the top third in the league, and you don't let that go lightly.
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I don't think it's as "in the middle" as you think. He didn't actually take a step up in year 2.........any inroads he made due to experience were offset by the tentativeness that set in and the lack of plays made. The guy simply doesn't make plays. You can't deny it. Amazing stat: Tremaine Edmunds hasn't forced or recovered a single fumble in his last 41 regular season games! And it's not like he raises his game in the playoffs.........which might indicate untapped potential.........he's actually a worse player in big games. I disagree with you on year 2. I think 2019 was comfortably his best season as a Bill. He doesn't make enough plays, I agree with.
jletha Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: My pet peeve: Draft position is irrelevant once you hit the field. Where Edmunds was drafted has nothing to do with whether the Bills keep him. It's all about how he contributes to the team, how he fits the defense, whether he can be replaced, etc. Kyle Williams didn't start because he was outplaying a 5th round pick, and Aaron Maybin didn't get cut because he underplayed a #9 overall. You play or don't play if you're good enough or not, regardless of where you're drafted. Edmunds future has nothing to do with where he was picked. I continue to think that we don't completely understand how McDermott values Edmunds in the defense. I suspect, but I don't know, that Edmunds' mobility in pass defense is worth a lot more to McD than it is to the rest of us. I think McD expects Edmunds to continue to learn the things that he needs to learn. It's the old adage about you can't teach speed. Or height. There just aren't a whole of MLBs out there who combine Edmunds' size and speed, and that is, I think, worth a lot to McD. overall I agree except that because he was a first rounder there is a slight difference because you need to decide on the 5th year option. They need to decide this offseason if they pick that up or not. Its a pretty big decision. 1
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